[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Quarterkue I'm pretty sure Leonidas wouldn't have been named ruler. At that time, as it is today, Athens was the capital of the Greek civilization. Everything that was something was either based in Athens, or ran through Athens. Sparta was nothing but a war-loving, equal-righted society famous for their combat. Although, my guess would be that the Spartans would be the front line of the Greek troops... if the provinces of Greece could all get along.[/quote]Sparta was in charge of all of the Greek forces, land and Sea, during the Greco-Persian Wars. Not Athens. Athens seeked Spartan assistance and gave them tactical command over everything. I think that Sparta would have first rights here, but of course Athens would certainly be a major player in whatever they conquered as they contributed as much ships as all other Greek poleis combined.

Chances are scouts would have eventually found the path on their own. But the Spartans would have kept kicking ass for much longer.

I'm pretty sure Leonidas wouldn't have been named ruler. At that time, as it is today, Athens was the capital of the Greek civilization. Everything that was something was either based in Athens, or ran through Athens. Sparta was nothing but a war-loving, equal-righted society famous for their combat. Although, my guess would be that the Spartans would be the front line of the Greek troops... if the provinces of Greece could all get along.

I don't think to much would've changed. If they won, they probably would've followed the Persians back to Asia Minor. They'd eventually loose because of the Persian home advantage. And also the growing rift between Athens and Sparta would likely lead to an even larger Peloponnesian war. Sparta would've likely won that, and then probably would've sat there and done nothing. Or they might have went after a weak Persian empire. Eventually, I think either Phillip II or Alexander would've conquered them.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MLG Cheehwawa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BERYGOODCHANCE Did they not win? They accomplished their goal of holding the army back long enough for the rest of Greece to rally, which they did. [/quote]But what if they held it long enough for the rallied Greeks to join them and push the Persians out of the pass?[/quote]It simply would have sped up the current process... and a few less nameless Spartans would be disappointed to not die a warriors death.

This is how I see it, or at least I think this would make for an interesting alternate history: Sparta and its allies hold Thermopylae for an extra week after killing Ephialtes, then Greek reinforcements arrive and drive the Persians back across the sea, with the help of the Athenian navy. They sack one of their capital cities and manage to kill Xerxes, and Leonidas lays claim to the throne of Asia a century before Alexander. Spartans, having been granted total power by the Athenians, would likely be first up to bat to decide who gets what in Persia. The Empire swells larger when Greece heads Westward to Rome, defeating and assimilating the infant Republic. As the Empire swells, tempers flare. The Pelopponesian Wars starts early: Athens and its allies go against Sparta and its allies to see who will have more of the conquered land; after nearly a decade of conflict, Sparta emerges victorious, and the inhabitants of Athens are made into a caste similar to the Helots, made to build ships for the newfound Spartan navy. Alexander is exiled from Macedon and is sent to Sparta, since Illyria would have been defeated by Sparta on their way to Rome, so Macedon never fought the Illyrians and Alexander would have no quarter there. In Sparta, Alexander befriends a pair of Spartan princes, and he instills on them the policy of fusion; he says that Sparta will not survive unless it can evolve. When these princes become Kings, one of them with Alexander goes to the uncharted land of the West, past the Alps, and end up in Briton centuries before Rome would have been. The Empire grows once more. But while much of the Spartiates are away on conquest, Athens begins to rebuild their military, and they head north into Scythia to raise a mercenary army against Sparta. When the conquests are over, the Spartans return to discover that Athens has amassed on Lakonia's shores. Athens and its mercenary army assault the Spartain polis, sparking a second Peloponnesian War. This one ends in a bitter draw, leaving both Sparta and Athens decimated. In the wake of the battles, the mercenary army turns on Athens, who have run out of money to pay them. The Spartans and Athenians are forced into an alliance to fight against the barbarians, and in the end, are victorious. After these hard struggles, Sparta and Athens decide that a reform is needed. A new government is instilled on the Empire, turning it into a Republic. 3 branches of government. The executive, headed by the two Spartan "Kings," who are advised by the full-blooded Spartiates. The legislative, a senate based on the absorbed Rome's. The judicial, the 5 ephors, as well as subsidaries (Arbiter, Magistrate, etc.) which all serve to balance one another. As this government evolves, a mixture between the elite Spartan culture and the democratic Athenian society is apparent. The core of the military is made up of Spartiates, full-blooded Spartans who train for 13 years in the agoge. Then there is the legion, open to anyone who wants to join, and if they are in for 13 years they have the same voting rights as a Spartiate (but cannot attend the assembly with the King as part of the executive branch). etc. etc. If they made it to space we'd have something really [url=http://ancientearthstudios.com/color/hellas_hoplite.jpg]interesting[/url].

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] cortana 5 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Morning Revival I didnt even know Ephialties was real. All I know about Thermophylae was what I saw in 300, and that was barely accurate.[/quote]Where you there to not know that Ephialties was real too? :D[/quote] LOL xD

As a student of history, my two cents: If the Greeks chased the Persians, there could have been potentially two outcomes with the first being more likely. 1.) They chase the Persians, and being in a completely foreign land, would more than likely be defeated in battle on the Persians home turf, with lack of proper supplies and water being a huge factor. 2.) They reach Babylon and sack the city, eastern and middle eastern cultures are dealt serious blows from which it takes them centuries to recover from. While Sparta had the military might in a divided Greece, they were essentially a relatively small group of professional soldiers with a society built almost exclusively on slaves (the Hellots). In my opinion, continued exposure to a voting, open society like Athens would have eventually been the downfall of Sparta to that very slave population (i think the ratio was like 5 to 1). Rebellions, civil war, etc. Now, that being said, if we are supposing that the Spartans remain victorious throughout the centuries I would tend to think that their many western influences, which still resonate today in our society, would eventually lead them on a very similar course with the current state of affairs in the world. The only difference being that things would get done much faster under a unified leading class/world organization that did not consider the opinions of others. In other words, I would think that the government would tend to be very unilateral and unafraid of warfare to force potential or realized enemies into submission. Regardless of the cost, since they were perpetually victorious. Sorry for the wall of text.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Morning Revival I didnt even know Ephialties was real. All I know about Thermophylae was what I saw in 300, and that was barely accurate.[/quote] Wow, History Phail

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Morning Revival I didnt even know Ephialties was real. All I know about Thermophylae was what I saw in 300, and that was barely accurate.[/quote]Where you there to not know that Ephialties was real too? :D

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MLG Cheehwawa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MasterSin [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MLG Cheehwawa If Sparta and Athens had a conflict after defeating the Persians early (an early Pelopponesian War) what if they ended up at a draw and split up the Persian Empire between the two? Sparta's core military could continue to grow and stay an elite fighting force while the Athenians and other Greeks turned their militia into a Roman legion-style standing army. Then they could have absorbed Rome. With the Persians completely out of the picture Macedon wouldn't really be able to go East, so Alexander, if he still became King, could have went West instead, past Rome, and been to Briton before the Romans got there. Then it would just be a matter of stability; could they keep the populations in check? Keep down the civil unrest? Surely it would be tough, but with sparta's elite military and athens' elite navy and democratic prowess, a Hellenic Republic could have replaced a Roman Republic. [/quote] In which wouldn't be much diference since Rome based their civilization mostly Greek Style, so you can tell "How diferent" would it be [/quote]But the Romans weren't Spartans. Different societies, though they had similar bonds... you don't see Troy around today anymore, do you? And that city was about as far from Greece as Rome is, and likely closely inter-related. [/quote] True! Still is so dificult to tell since was a civilization based strongest survive and the weakest dies, a society and civilization based in a warrior style like would be like what? Watching the human history, Human technology makes big jumps with wars ongoing, maybe we would be more advance?

What blasphemy is this thread? SPARTANS .... ALWAYS .... WIN!!!!! We need to go delete this heresy from the history books and teach the world the way things work: Spartan want to kill you, you go and jump on his sword just for the honor it brings you and your family. d00d if masterchief had a time machine he would go and fix this garbage from time and show that spartans kick ass! [Edited on 05.07.2009 4:11 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] iPsycho Zz 2 THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry got carried away lol[/quote]dam...he beat me to it.

THIS...IS...SPARTA!!!!

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MasterSin [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MLG Cheehwawa If Sparta and Athens had a conflict after defeating the Persians early (an early Pelopponesian War) what if they ended up at a draw and split up the Persian Empire between the two? Sparta's core military could continue to grow and stay an elite fighting force while the Athenians and other Greeks turned their militia into a Roman legion-style standing army. Then they could have absorbed Rome. With the Persians completely out of the picture Macedon wouldn't really be able to go East, so Alexander, if he still became King, could have went West instead, past Rome, and been to Briton before the Romans got there. Then it would just be a matter of stability; could they keep the populations in check? Keep down the civil unrest? Surely it would be tough, but with sparta's elite military and athens' elite navy and democratic prowess, a Hellenic Republic could have replaced a Roman Republic. [/quote] In which wouldn't be much diference since Rome based their civilization mostly Greek Style, so you can tell "How diferent" would it be [/quote]But the Romans weren't Spartans. Different societies, though they had similar bonds... you don't see Troy around today anymore, do you? And that city was about as far from Greece as Rome is, and likely closely inter-related.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MLG Cheehwawa If Sparta and Athens had a conflict after defeating the Persians early (an early Pelopponesian War) what if they ended up at a draw and split up the Persian Empire between the two? Sparta's core military could continue to grow and stay an elite fighting force while the Athenians and other Greeks turned their militia into a Roman legion-style standing army. Then they could have absorbed Rome. With the Persians completely out of the picture Macedon wouldn't really be able to go East, so Alexander, if he still became King, could have went West instead, past Rome, and been to Briton before the Romans got there. Then it would just be a matter of stability; could they keep the populations in check? Keep down the civil unrest? Surely it would be tough, but with sparta's elite military and athens' elite navy and democratic prowess, a Hellenic Republic could have replaced a Roman Republic. [/quote] In which wouldn't be much diference since Rome based their civilization mostly Greek Style, so you can tell "How diferent" would it be

If Sparta and Athens had a conflict after defeating the Persians early (an early Pelopponesian War) what if they ended up at a draw and split up the Persian Empire between the two? Sparta's core military could continue to grow and stay an elite fighting force while the Athenians and other Greeks turned their militia into a Roman legion-style standing army. Then they could have absorbed Rome. With the Persians completely out of the picture Macedon wouldn't really be able to go East, so Alexander, if he still became King, could have went West instead, past Rome, and been to Briton before the Romans got there. Then it would just be a matter of stability; could they keep the populations in check? Keep down the civil unrest? Surely it would be tough, but with sparta's elite military and athens' elite navy and democratic prowess, a Hellenic Republic could have replaced a Roman Republic. [Edited on 05.07.2009 11:46 AM PDT]

Sparta wasn't that great sure they were some of the greatest warriors ever but the society that they were from made them that way. Only the strongest survived in all stages of life. They enslaved many people so the people of Sparta had no objectives but to become the best warriors in the ancient world. The world under the Spartans would be horrible they were admired by Hitler for weeding out the undesirables in their society so yeah they would not be so good as people might think. Despite all of that Leonidas is still a hero an epitomizes how a few can outdo the mighty and numerous.

That is definately a good question. After watching 300 the first time, I asked myself, "What would have happened if the Spartans were never defeated?" [Edited on 05.07.2009 11:30 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MLG Cheehwawa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] theHurtfulTurkey Then they would have been Godly to the point of being made of pure-kick-ass-ery, because there is no way in Hell that a small amount of soldiers could fend off the Persian army.[/quote]They were in a narrow pass, all of the conflicts had to be fought head to head with the Spartans and their allies, the Persians would probably not have been able to outflank the Spartans without aid of Ephialtes since Themistocles was holding his own at sea against the Persian navy. If they held it for a few more days, time for Greece to rally behind the main Spartan army, I think that they could have won there instead of at Plataea a year later. I am doing an alternate history of Earth right now if Sparta won and I think it's turning out now. No more christianity, islam, dark ages of slaughter of the native Americans. [/quote] Actually, I doubt that one war between even more barbaric countries than those that came over here would have had any positive effects to the world.

THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry got carried away lol

My carecup would have been as empty as it is now: \_/ So it wouldn't have made any difference.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] theHurtfulTurkey Then they would have been Godly to the point of being made of pure-kick-ass-ery, because there is no way in Hell that a small amount of soldiers could fend off the Persian army.[/quote]They were in a narrow pass, all of the conflicts had to be fought head to head with the Spartans and their allies, the Persians would probably not have been able to outflank the Spartans without aid of Ephialtes since Themistocles was holding his own at sea against the Persian navy. If they held it for a few more days, time for Greece to rally behind the main Spartan army, I think that they could have won there instead of at Plataea a year later. I am doing an alternate history of Earth right now if Sparta won and I think it's turning out now. No more christianity, islam, dark ages of slaughter of the native Americans. [Edited on 05.07.2009 7:40 AM PDT]

Then they would have been Godly to the point of being made of pure-kick-ass-ery, because there is no way in Hell that a small amount of soldiers could fend off the Persian army.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MLG Cheehwawa . I am reading [i]Gates of Fire[/i] and I have swiftly fell in love with the book. The author really captivates what it was like living in Greece in around 480 B.C.E. -- or at least I like to think he does![/quote]I love that book, definitely one of my favorites! As for your question, it would be irrelevant if Ephialtes didn't betray the Spartans, if you read Herodotus (and if you've read Gates of Fire this is a must read!) he mentioned the fact that the Spartans weapons had fell into ruin, spears were shattered etc, and the Spartans were relying on hand to hand combat and captured Persian weapons. And if the Spartans were victorious, the course of events wouldn't change much. Even if the Greek Allied Army conquered Persia who would have supremacy? Athens with their maritime reach or Sparta with their superior ground forces? The course of events that subsequently followed after the Persian Wars, i.e. the Peloponnesian War would still happen because of the rivalry between Athens and Sparta. If that war was horrifying enough, if the Greeks had a wider reach then they did you could possibly be talking about the world's first true world war! As for the 300, most of the dialogue comes from Herodotus such as the Spartan responses to the Persians negotiations ("lay down your weapons" "Persians, come and get them!" and "Then we will fight in the shade"). [Edited on 05.07.2009 1:05 AM PDT]

OMG! I love that book, it is so good! I My favorite part is when Xeones talks to Apollo.