All the end game weapons are "exotic legendaries" though... Except the prison of elder weapons. That's why the raids are worth grinding...
Though thats besides the point to icebreaker not being a go-to weapon because there are other alternatives.
In contrast, Gjallarhorn, there are no real alternatives that come close. An issue of poor weapon design, not Gjallarhorn being too powerful.
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Yes very true. But infinite ammo was something that surpassed even that of any other exotic legendary. What they are doing to it now with this nerf will bring it back down a tier where it would be on level with, let's say it's brother, the Sworbreaker. If everything else is made, what you say, poorly, wouldn't that make Gally by comparison too OP?
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Edited by ELRaSun: 7/19/2015 6:35:20 AMMmm I think they over estimate the ability of most people to hit critical spots. The areas where Blackhammer is OP is on highly immobile targets... spider tanks and sepiks, for example. But trying to crit most anything else is a challenge. If anything, I'd say increase how fast you have to land the shots. And take the crit off the spider tanks legs. OR, give it a shield that cycles through all 3 burns. That would be a better design change. It's way too easy a target no matter what weapon you use... Vision Of Confluence or any full auto scout rifle / pulse rifle eats it alive lol. Gjally... Good question... this is another convo..... To me the prob is Different from Bhammer / icebreaker because there are sooo many good sniper rifles. And I also think it is the best convo to be had with Bungie... If I could talk to Deej, I would love to talk about Design choices, as a player whose been in it since Alpha. It feels like we are always being capped. They capped The Vex first and left so many players feeling like their hard work was in vein. Anyway, As far as the LFG problem with POE.... I think this could have been averted in the short term if Players were more educated about the mechanics. Many are too afraid to try it, and assume Gjally is the answer... when its not. And in the long term, as people grind through and beat at least the 34..... If the Queen and POE weapons actually had value, they could have been alternatives to Gjally, just as Hunger Of Crota was in TDB. I never had Gjally until I beat POE 35. And I never got turned down on LFG for crotas end hard, because I had gotten HOC from CE Normal. Unfortunately though, the desgns on both the Queen and POE weapons are horrible. Shank burn? Maybe stun a captain? SMALL Amount of bonus damage? Maybe suppress a captains teleport ability? Useless. Just for me, these types of Design issues wold have been a way better use of time in the long term. I don't think this is as much about gjallarhorn being OP, as it is... That they always say they want many different weapons to be a possible option and no 1 gun to be THE answer. Thing is, wolfpack rounds is THE best because its the only perk on a launcher that Directly effects the enemy in an obvious was.... More damage. So yes, Gjallarhorn is the king in terms of power because of that. So design wise we don't want to make an even more powerful weapon. So how do we counter it? 1. By making Gjally weaker. That's one option. But it still doesn't address what this problem says about Heavy Weapons as a Category. 2. Or, address it By making other weapons more useful, in certain situations. Having nothing to do with burns and modifiers. Stats is not really the thing. But its the perks... For example: Cluster bombs Good for large groups of enemies. But against most bosses, it's usefulness is questionable. Esp targets like Taniks and Skolas that teleport. Or Sepiks and Omnigul who are not even on the ground! Lol. Or Atheon and Phogoth, whose weak spot is high up. How could this be designed more usefully?............. Maybe if the bombs attached to the enemy and then exploded when it got near other enemies, that would be a utility that might make that launcher worth using. Especially for example on Crota, where the Knight jumps on the bridge near Crota as the swordbearer approaches. Or in the abyss, where the knight attacks as your swarmed by thrall. Or Omnigul, who always has other adds jumping up on the platform / spawns other wizards who gang up on you. Solar flare Yeah. Anyone who got Dragons Breath when it came out, everyone was so excited..... It looked so badass........ THEN you realized that enemies could just walk away from the solar flare with minor damage over time done. LOL! The flare should have ignite effect on whatever it touche, last a few seconds longer, and cause targets to explode. Oh... And why doesn't one of the only other exotic launchers have tracking????! How could it ever hope to be an alternative to Gjally without these two features? It COULD have been crucial for area domination. For example, keeping enemies off the ramp in POE 35. Instead the flare is just an annoyance to the enemies more than a threat. Or in Crota Abyss. Or on the Stairs, against Gulrot and the Flame Knight. Even in PvP. But..... NOPE. Proximity Explosion. Truth is great because it fires fast, holds more shots and has the best tracking. But there is nothing special about it beyond that. Truth kind of embodies the Heavy Category... Powerful enough. But... Not really interesting. Aggressive tracking is great. But the proximity explosion doesnt add much value, and it arguably negates the effect weapons of light since there is not an actual physical impact (supposedly WOL effects the physical impact of the rocket, and not the blast damage). Just saying.... Wolfpack rounds just happens to be the most valuable perk. Nothing else about Gjallarhorn is really spectacular. Truth is actually better in the other categories... Speed of the rocket, tracking accuracy, tube size, total rockets it can hold, etc. But, it has a perk that really adds no Utility. If the void blast slowed down or stunned enemies that did not die from the explosion, that'd be different. HMGs is another story. Its hard to really advocate them in the harder activities. The DPS is spread out. Thunderlord is good, but not great. And its the best. How come something named The Lord Of Thunder is so plain? Why doesn't it's electrified rounds shock enemies or make them arc lightning damage closeby enemies or something. Theres nothing cool about them design-wise. Good luck using Super Good Advice on a boss lol. Just saying... I cant really say I don't understand Bungies logic in some of the nerfs... But, I also can't understand how this will help in the long run. It may make people use the newer weapons. But lowering the power of the best weapons just brings the cieling downward, it doesn't raise up the other weapons in terms of their features. And features is what these nerfs are really about. They are not nerfing the stats of thorn (in PvE), gjally, bhammer, ice breaker. They are nerfing The Features. They are nerfing Thorns burn in PvE, gjallys wolfpack, bhammers ammo recovery, icebreakers recharge. Just my opinion. Admittedly, I am more of an RPG player than FPS. They would never nerf Lionheart in FF8, just because you can limit break 9999. Instead they put dungeons and bosses at that level of play, where that doesn't matter. You need strategy and team management to beat them. You can't limit break a them to death and win. They negate your power through enemy behavior and design, so you don't feel capped by anything but your own ability to adapt.
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This must have taken you hours to make so I applaud you. Honestly. That is a lot. Congratulations. And I believe everything you said is true, if I didn't miss anything between that book. Why does Truth have horseshoes if it has the best tracking? Makes it redundant. And Bungie had there reasons for every nerf. And I still see a good one behind each nerf or buff. But thank you so much for your very elaborate and great response. Just thank you.
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Edited by ELRaSun: 7/19/2015 9:34:26 PMI think he shows it better than I ever could about the snipers. Comparing legendary to legendary. I do disagree with him about Gjallarhorn though. He uses the example of killing a minotaur with several rockets with Ash Factory vs 1 rocket with Gjallarhorn. Buuut... He is a level 34, fighting level 26 enemies. That reflects pretty poorly on Ash Factory, though its just a legendary.