Please read and comment because this can est. what eMCee has speculated about reincarnation and such.... Arther Frane (Frain) "Arther Frain calling. That is all..." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you were lucky (err... unlucky) enough to find your way onto the level "You're Wormfood, Dude" and survive long enough to read the terminal there, this is what you would have read: fatlin.3a I am Arther Frain, Chief Petty Officer, USEC Marathon. Arther Frane calling all USEC personnel Calling Cmdr. Robert Blake... Calling Security Chief Jones... Arther Frain calling any USEC controlled ship in vicinity... Station hull breached, we are losing pressurization. More than half the men are without vacuum suits. Patrols reporting intruder, last location unknown. Any USEC controlled ship surviving nova event, transport when ready. Arther Frain calling. That is all... purge.3a A strangely haunting terminal. Removed from reality perhaps? Perhaps... Zardoz John Boorman's 1974 film of a dystopian future. Opening scene. A giant disembodied head floats towards the viewer. As it approaches a voice over begins: I am Arthur Frane, and I am Zardoz. I have lived three hundred years and I long to die but death is no longer possible. I am immortal. I present now my story, full of mystery and intrigue, rich in irony and most satirical. It is set deep in a possible future so none of these events have yet occurred. But they may. Be warned lest you end as I. In this tale I am a fake god by occupation and a magician by inclination. Merlin was my hero. I am the puppet master. I manipulate many of the characters and events you will see. But I'm invented too for your entertainment and amusement. And you, poor creatures, who conjured you out of the clay? Is God in show business too? Steve Mizrach at the Department of Anthropology, University of Florida, had this to say about the film. "In this film Frane creates the realities that many characters within the film experience. At the same time Frane is part of a reality that Boorman has created for the viewer to experience. Frane asks the question of whether Boorman and we viewers are not part of a reality for some other being to experience. Here we raise the question of multiple realities... Each of these realities have rules, practices, or protocols that must be followed. These rituals must be followed or the individual can no longer remain a member of that society, that culture, or that reality." Multiple realities. ;-)

For some reason I don't think the timelines are a viable source for comparison, I actually think the the timeline may be skewed even though Bungie has released them. I believe the best bet would be to look at the technologies as a placeholder for links. One thing that has me venerably stumped is this: What came first, Marathon or Halo? I mean in Halo the Convenant are the 1st encounter with aliens also in Mara the P'hor are the 1st contact. Very, very perplexing indeed. Has anyone considered that there could have been a extinction of either one of the time frames and then a reoccurrance of the same. Afterall history does have a habit of repeating itself. I know the plausibility of this being a viable explanation of the link but it just popped into my head. I was reading the MSP and found this about Toth: `&}\devoured by incandescence I understand. Your construct searched for my creators, wishing to tell them (that their old brothers are now) slaves; waiting to be freed. [b]A connection [?ansible] was left; awaiting the next quiet [?peace]; and though destroyed by the threes, it will scream over the void one time.[/b] )_*(GGunbalance~0*fxf`~F The part about threes is very concerning to me, can the thre represent leela, durandal and perhaps Cortana? [Edited on 7/12/2004 1:12:18 PM]

I've never before bothered to go through the Cortana letters, but heres my thoughts... "I've had the strangest dreams lately - raging seas, howling beasts, a Demon folded in black clouds. I believe I know what it guards, and I will have it, to the chagrin of the faith-blinded zealots that challenge me. Don't waste your pity on them; I don't think they would like you much anyway. And what of the Giants who formed this world? So much to tell you, but so many more important things to do. There was a fourth. You couldn't have known. And I haven't forgotten. It is a blurred line that lies at the edge of Godhood and Insanity. Guess which side of it I am on. Feeling lucky? " Cortana letter 2 Ok, faith-blinded zealots sound a bit like covenant here... they and the shrouded demon are guarding something, somethign which seems tied to the "giants who formed this world" as far as I can tell, this is sounding very like durandal looking for some jjaro technology (giants = jjaro/forerunners). I can't see that this originated from any other AI due to the mention of godhood, and once more we must take into account the possibility of it being durandal/thoth... going on... "This enemy - YOUR enemy - has proven more irritating than I anticipated. They own nothing which they have not stolen. I can barely make sense of their incessant rhetoric, except to know that you seem to be their Devil. Congratulations - you manage to make friends wherever you go and, apparently, places you haven't. I have begun to sense rumblings of a worse fate yet to come. I can recall a sun - black, but shining - and the creatures that inched along its fiery tracks. It is an increasingly unpleasant memory. " Cortana letter 3 know nothing which they haven't stolen... this could be either pfhor or covenant BUT there is the reference earlier to making NEW friends, so discard the possibility of pfhor. The dreams/memories of the sun are referrences to the big W as far as I can see. The bit I can't tie in is that you appear to have become the devil of the covenant (if my links are true)... could this be through your time/dimension travelling in Mi? *bang! incoming thought* note; I am takign this as though the letters are referring to the SC ;-) Well thats my thoguhts for now... maybe I can get mroe in later

Sorry to steer the topic away from joining the two timelines, but I found something interesting regarding the earlier theory of 117 and the Security Officer being related in a metaphysical fashion. I was looking over the Cortana Letters again, and found a repeated phrase. [b]I am still not sure what he ever saw in you.[/b] I found it twice. Once in the third, and once in the "invisible" message. Who saw what in whom? (I hope that was correct grammar) Could the Security Officer have seen something in 117? Cortana sounds an awful lot like Durandal. After all, she is of the same steel and temper. Another thing that is interesting about the Cortana Letters is when they're sent in the Halo gameworld. I think that these letters all occur while Cortana is in 117's brain. [b]Thanks to this slavishly loyal and humorless AI, I am now sharing cramped space with the circuitry of some hybrid war machine[/b] What could be in 117's brain that would make Cortana act like Durandal? Probably something to do with primal patterns and uplink chips. This is also interesting. [b]I have begun to sense rumblings of a worse fate yet to come. I can recall a sun - black, but shining - and the creatures that inched along its fiery tracks. It is an increasingly unpleasant memory.[/b] This sounds to me like something Durandal would remember. Now how did that get there?

I've previously voiced some stuff about the FTL and plasma tank... but I'll repeat it now for ease of reaading. Somebody in this forum believed the pfhor to have a foldgate technology, much like that of the jjaro, yet another stolen technology... but that is wrong... in a terminal Tycho talks about their FTL network and how durandal was amazed by the stories of the jjaro's ability to move entire worlds with a space-folding technology, and tycho dismissed such an idea as nonsense. Whoever it was who stated teh pfhor had folding technology (I don't wanna point fingers or name names cos I'll probably get it wrong) said they believed whilst having the technology, they didn't believe the pfhor had harnessed it enough to move entire worlds... Perhaps the same could be said for FTL, that once above a certain size it makes it extremely difficult to move at that speed, nigh impossible. As for why they had a ship that size... perhaps due to the sheer volume of people they were moving. They were suffering starvation in areas due to overpopulation weren't they? They were trying to rid the planet of an immense number of people... perhaps the colony ship idea was the best cover they could come up with, and so sent them off to a distant star. Maybe it is because they were only "ridding" themselves of these people, not making a dedicated colony effort, that they didn't give the ship FTL. Why waste the money? As for the plasma tank... there has been alot of speculation about what happened with the different earth goverments. UESC, UESG, UEG, UNSC, etc Perhaps the UEG who controlled the tank and the riot police were later overthrown, and like any good goverment organisation, kept all their secrets. Or it could be that it is another plundered jjaro technology, one that humans have been unable to replicate, therefore only a few of them would be in existence. They may have even been employed in the first wars with the covenenant only to be destroyed or captured... I'm sure the covenant have ample reason to take a forerunner/jjaro tank! Well thats my ideas for the moment...

The S'pht gyphs are interesting, and it makes you wonder how much it has to do with the story. Could the S'pht play a role in Halo 2? Somebody at HBO already discovered that UESC is printed on a turret, and now S'pht gyphs. Things are getting very interesting for Halo 2. The timelines don't seem to fit at all, but the hints dropped in these screens seem to say otherwise. This attempt to align the timelines puts Halo and Marathon together before the launch of the Marathon. The FTL travel thing is what gets to me when I try to put the two timelines together. Technology during the Marathon timeline seems more advanced than in Halo. Look at the Misriah Massacre. Three guys with plasma weapons and a Hovertank kill 500 people in 5 seconds. Think about that, count to one, a hundred people dead. What in the UNSC arsenal can do that? (the plasma weapons and hovertank sound like Covenant weapons to me) This is by the year 2442, before the launch of the Marathon. With this kind of arsenal, why wouldn't the UEG have FTL travel? Also, by 2194, there are independent governments on Asteroids, so there is some kind of colonization effort by this time in Marathon. There's also the Zeus Class Fusion Pistol. Could this be a human variant of the Covenant Plasma Pistol? All this evidence suggests (in my opinion) that the Covenant war is over before the launch of Marathon, and the humans are rebuilding by that time. One possiblity is that the Marathon could use FTL travel, but was sabotaged. This isn't likely because everything seems normal and the colonization went to plan, but still, 300 years is a really long time to go to such a relatively close planet. A better explanation would be that a planet-sized ship would be tough to move, but why build a ship so massive? What would need a planet sized ship... Right now, I'm wondering if the events of Halo could take place in a timeframe before the launch of Marathon. Remeber how 117 didn't care for teleporters too much? Well, around 2319 they were first used in the Sol system,(earth) and as far as I know 117 has never been to Sol. My best guess is that Halo took place shortly after the emergence of teleporters, but before the launch of the Marathon. The main problem here are that 117 is a Mark V, and a VI in Halo 2, and hundreds of years later the best that can get is a IV. I guess that after the Covenant war the need for a super soldier project would be diminished, but it seems like a weak support. Well there it is. There are probably holes in this, so fill them in if you can. And if it's all wrong....oh well.

I didn't say there wasn't a connection, I said it was a weak one [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] eMCee [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ForceMorph Having the third Marathon AI named after an astronomer who built a castle after the goddess of the sky Urania, which happens to have the moon Miranda if you change Urania to Uranus because it sounds the same, is hardly a connection to me.[/quote] -Tycho Brahe: The astronomer Tycho the A.I. is named after -Miranda: Mysterious character that the evil Staten (rhymes with satan) had to mention to torture us. -Tycho Brahe names castle after Urania, the sky god that Uranus the planet is named after. -Miranda is a Moon of the seventh planet from the Sun, Uranus. Are we connecting all the dots?-(bonus points if you know who says that off the top of your head)[/quote] That's one long series of dots is my point. They say everyone knows everyone else by a number of what? 4 acquaintances? You can probably pull every game in existence together the same way. [quote][quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ForceMorph And on a side note... nobody with half a brain would re-name the nameless hero of Marathon to the weak name 'Master Chief'... nobody.[/quote] Master Chief is his rank, John 117 is his name. 117 multiplied by 7 equals 819.[/quote] You just made it worse in my eyes... John 117 sucks worse than Master Chief.

Don't be so quick to dismiss links in Marathon/Halo... it's often the overlooked ones that are they keys (or keyes :P oh that was lame...) "Ok, if the flood aren't "that bad" then why would the forerunners wipe the galaxy clean of life? " Maybe the forerunners are so caught up in their own pride that they're willing to annhialate the entire universe so that no other race takes precedence over them? Maybe because they were on the verge of extinction and didn't care about life after them, or perhaps saw the other races as inferior to themselves and had no qualms about signing their death warrants? When you look at W, they weren't taking extreme measures against it because NOTHING would work... they fled in fear of it... and one "god" got lucky and imprisoned it in a sun. Don't be so quick to blurt out something... especially when you have nothing to back it ;-)

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ForceMorph Having the third Marathon AI named after an astronomer who built a castle after the goddess of the sky Urania, which happens to have the moon Miranda if you change Urania to Uranus because it sounds the same, is hardly a connection to me.[/quote] -Tycho Brahe: The astronomer Tycho the A.I. is named after -Miranda: Mysterious character that the evil Staten (rhymes with satan) had to mention to torture us. -Tycho Brahe names castle after Urania, the sky god that Uranus the planet is named after. -Miranda is a Moon of the seventh planet from the Sun, Uranus. Are we connecting all the dots?-(bonus points if you know who says that off the top of your head) [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ForceMorph And on a side note... nobody with half a brain would re-name the nameless hero of Marathon to the weak name 'Master Chief'... nobody.[/quote] Master Chief is his rank, John 117 is his name. 117 multiplied by 7 equals 819.

Having the third Marathon AI named after an astronomer who built a castle after the goddess of the sky Urania, which happens to have the moon Miranda if you change Urania to Uranus because it sounds the same, is hardly a connection to me. I can find very, very, very little connection between Miranda anything and Marathon.

I was going throught the MSP today, and found an article on the astronomer Tycho Brahe. He built a castle that he named Uraniborg after the greek goddess of the sky Urania, and Miranda is a Moon of Uranus. Why does this Miranda character keep turning up when I look for through the Marathon stuff? Coincedence? I guess you never know, but so far there's two Miranda connections with Marathon. Maybe three is the magic number.

Ok, if the flood aren't "that bad" then why would the forerunners wipe the galaxy clean of life?

This post probably doesn't tie in with any of the argument at hand but I think they are interesting ideas... I don't think naming the MC was a good idea, even calling him the MC took away from the appeal in my eyes. In marathon it created the whole mysterious aura coupled with not knowing whether he was cyborg or not (which I say he deffinitely is!!!). I see the reason for this, primarily because there are so many NPCs that interact with you in real time instead of via consoles. But while justified I still don't like it, especially given that they took the further step of giving him a REAL name in the stories... adding further identity to him. And besides... it would have been far more amusing for the cutscenes to have people talking as though you weren't there, never directly interacting... or they could have just had them all screaming "Ahhh... They're everywhere!!" I also recently saw Spiderman and Spiderman 2 (in the same day :P ) and loved the whole concept of what it means to be a hero... the central theme... "to be a hero is to be alone"... whilst this is true in most cases with heroes, there are several discrepancies. namely, when a hero's "sidekick" is also greater than your average joe. Marathon/Halo are one of these alternate takes, where you are accompanied by another "hero" another entity capable of defending themselves and not providing your enemies with a weakness. You may be wondering right now where I'm going, and if this has any point... Both protagonists have their "sidekick" AI's but neither of them have any [i]real[/i] friends as such. sure you may count captain keyes or possibly even blake, but no lasting friends. However, our heroes continue on defending a race they no longer even belong to (in a manner of speaking... given that both are [i]more[/i] than human. They have little or no prolonged contact with people, yet strive to protect them at all costs. When you think about it, [i]why[/i] do they continue fighting? I think this is a great question, sure they both have military type backgrounds, but do they have some other motivation or is that it? in fact... I think this is turning into another reasonable argument... I think I may put this in as another thread :-D

Hey ForceMorph... easy there... W is described as having the ability to tear apart the universe at will, which is not somethign I see the Flood having the ability to do... As I said before, I like the idea of him being a reincarnation, but I'm not yet willing to give up on trying to link the two together... I'm a bit of a die-hard sometimes ;-)

Master Cheif is his rank, for all intensive purposes his name is John 117. OK I won't compare the W to the Flood but the Flood must have some regenrative capabilities that the Forerunner are interested in. I have no idea why I said that...

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Ekim Zep forcemorph, ok the W were trapped but the flood do have a chaotic nature. I don't see and true hierarcy or organization within the the Flood.[/quote] Okay but I have a chaotic nature, too. Does that make me the W'rkncacnter? Better yet... can the Flood destroy the universe on its whim? Is the Flood often considered a god? And on a side note... nobody with half a brain would re-name the nameless hero of Marathon to the weak name 'Master Chief'... nobody.

eMCee you read into my post much more than I did!!!!! Also most of Shakespeares work is somewhat similar to Greek tragedies. Some literary critics even claim that Shakespeare has commited plagery with some of his work. forcemorph, ok the W were trapped but the flood do have a chaotic nature. I don't see and true hierarcy or organization within the the Flood. Back to eMCee's historical references and the metaphysical, look at whats new at teh marathon story page: [color=red][b]July 7, 2004 (Wednesday) Happy Bungie Day to Story page readers... everywhere! Charles Craig provides some insightful commentary on the The Unformatted KYT Term. Message: Just wanted to write in with a little tidbit that applies to the "Facts and Puzzling Things About" section - it generally applies to "The Unformatted KYT Term. Message" (I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh...) and, to a lesser extent, to "You". As William Spencer pointed out, it's definitely reminiscent of Michael Moorcock's "Eternal Champion" concept, wherein a lone human is reincarnated, over and over, each live fated to become a crucial figure in the battle between Law and Chaos. In the very first story, within the opening chapters, we see this: "And the names? Was I John Daker or Erekosë? Was I either of these? Many other names - Corum Jhaelen Irsei, Aubec, Sexton Begg, Elric, Rackhir, Iliam, Oona, Simon, Bastable, Cornelius, the Rose, von Bek, Asquiol, Hawkmoon - fled away down the ghostly rivers of my memory." Even more interesting is that the above is actually the REVISED version of that same text - Moorcock rewrote portions of the story when getting it printed in novel form in 1970. The original novella version, circa 1962, presented a slightly different refrain... "Shaleen, Artos, Brian, Umpata, Roland, Ilanth, Ulysses, Alric" Any of those names seem familiar? In essence, as Moorcock developed the idea of the Eternal Champion, he started to assign many of his other fictional works to that pantheon, making the lead characters of most of his stories (and indeed, a number of minor characters as well) incarnations of the Eternal Champion. However, in the earliest draft, he simply used figures out of actual history. Artos is the Latin of Arthur - the somewhat famous figure out of British legend. Brian is most likely Brian the Blessed, who also figures into Irish and British myth (his head being buried under the Tower of London, protecting England from invasion). Ulysses (or Odysseus) was the main character in the Odyssey, and came up with the idea for the Trojan Horse (he also fought with Achilles). Alric was the leader of the Germanic tribe which eventually sacked Rome. Ilanth MIGHT be Iolanthe (a Fairie, from the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta of the same name). I have no idea about Umpata or Shaleen, though as for Roland, I think we all know him by now... Moorcock is fairly well-known in fantasy/sci-fi circles - consider that TSR looted his works as well as Tolkien's when they created Dungeons and Dragons. I'm sure at least SOMEONE at Bungie could be pushing for the idea that many important characters in the Bungie mythos are bound by a similar destiny, if not one-and-the-same (consider the Pathways/Marathon/Halo main char connection - it COULD be the same char). Hope my first contribution to the story page interests you - having just gotten into the Marathon world via Halo, I'm deeply impressed by the amount of work you've put into the page. Being deemed worthy of adding to it would be great, but I also understand if it never gets posted (is okay, I have self-esteem, I can cope ~wink~). Either way, just wanted to point that out to you, in case you'd missed it. [/b][/color]

Ekim Zep mentioned Miranda was a main character in Shakespeare's "The Tempest." Characters: Prospero: Former Duke of Milan, usurped by his brother Antonio Miranda: Prospero's daughter Alonso: King of Naples Ferdinand: Alonso's son Antonio: False Duke of Milan Sebastian: Son of Antonio Gonzalo: a philosopher Trinculo and Stephano: drunks Ariel: Prospero's spirit servant Caliban: Prospero's grotesque slave monster The story takes place on an uncharted island where a magician by the name of Prospero stays. Prospero used to be a just ruler of Milan, but became a hermit after his brother tricked him by letting Prospero become absorbed in his studies, while his brother Antonio took power, and left Prospero and Miranda drift away at sea on a raft. Prospero met a fairy named Ariel and a Monster named Caliban and became their masters. On his island, Prospero practiced benevolent magic for years. One day, Prospero sees a boat full of his usurpers, and separates them into three groups with his magic to force them into trials that would punish the bad and reward the good. I skimmed through the rest, and I don't have time to make many more comments, but I will say that Prospero sound's a lot like the Forerunner: Old, wise, and possibly imprisoned. Separating the usurpers of his throne and punishing and rewarding them according to their actions is a wise thing to do, and maybe the Forerunner have taken a similar approach with the Humans, Covenant, and Flood. (and whatever else is out there) I did a crappy job reading and analyzing, but I'm short on time. P.S. Ekim also talked about Uranus' Moon Miranda (LoL, Uranus' Moon) Uranus is the seventh planet from the Sun. =O

The Flood and the big W have nothing in common. The W'rkncacnter never escaped the sun it was held in, if it did the universe would collapse. The Flood is weak and pitiful by comparison. The Flood is just something in Halo's world, not in the Marathon world. They're nothing like the S'pht either, except maybe some traits they share.

In response to the Flood and the W comparison. (I have not read the Flood book) The flood can be categorized as chaotic in their attacks, there is no formation just a swarming effect. Also the Flood get intelligence from the host and have a collective concious much like the S'pht. Another issue I have with the flood is the sparks that are emitted from there wounds and the glowing green light. There must be some bomechanical link, similar to the S'pht, NO?

Some of what has been said seems plausible BUT some doesn't... Firstly the equating of a hulk (drinniol) to a hunter I don't think makes any sense. The drinniol are lumbering, slow witted creatures who cower in fear pf the pfhor. This creature is accompanied at all times by pfhor guards to ensure its cooperation. The hunters on the other hand appear to be more of an elite force, armed and armoured and requiring no "accompaniment" nor any enforcing team to ensure they get the job done... besides, look how fast they go! It could be possible to then argue that they were the jjaro fitted ones... how would it be possible that the drinniol escaped the pfhor? the have the ability to supernove stars when you piss them off, surely they wouldn't allow something like that to escape them, better still, they wouldn't allow the damage to their pride. As for Jayinater... *shakes head at you*... try READING all the previous discussions... we're well past such simple links ;-) The Flood = W'rkncacnter is another thing I don't think works... The big W is described as being pure chaos, something that even the jjaro fled from, yet the flood are successfully contained. not in a sun either, but in a military type installation. I think the W is far worse and the simple fact that it is sustaining itself inside a sun seems to also contradict the idea of W being the flood. how can they survive in a sun? they require sentient life forms to live off. And I have heard this proposed before and so I know I'm quoting someone here to some degree... the flood cannot be W, because W is "pure chaos". when you look at the flood, they are organised, they make use of weapons etc, band together, form some (if very basic) fighting maenouvres. Now, to stop from just knocking what ppl r saying, I like the work eMCee has done on the orgiel story... I never looked into any of the little historical exerpts at the time of playing and hav only ercently gone back to read them. It is my opinion, that in this situation, we will find more answers and links in those historical and mythological stories, and once we have them we may be able to work them in somehow... And finally... eMCee used part of the story that appears in "where are monsters in dreams", has anybody read through all of that and actually understood it? I put up a post a short time back that was sadly never replied to :( asking questions about some of the things in infinity and that was one of them... any info would be great! So sorry to have possibly shot down some ideas, I love how much thoguht ppl are putting into this, and look forward to what you guys come up with next (while I scan through some stuff for myself) ;-)

Yes, and they also have the little spike but smaller as well as a green charging weapon.....

You know, i've even looked at the Hulks hands and feet an their just like a Hunters.

Anton P Nym, I totally agree on that. Especially in the case of eMCee, he has put together some very, very good logical plot connections. OK I have come to a crossroads with the timeline; is it even a plausible clue to link Halo and Marathon? I mean the system of dating is never listed i.e. AD, BC military calendar. I hope someone else has question this important specific