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#Halo

11/28/2008 8:33:56 AM
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Halo 3 Multi-Player: Revert to Last Checkpoint

[EDIT]Scroll down for summary -------------------------- I, for one, am upset at Bungie's decision to not import, re-texture and release remakes of obviously superior maps (i.e. Halo: Combat Evolved and Halo 2 Maps). This is obviously an exception for Black Out and Cold Storage, as they are ACTUAL remakes of beloved maps. Before jumping down my throat, I would like to state, for the record, that I am a die-hard Bungie fan. Far before the Halo series, I played Oni and Marathon avidly. That being said, I believe Bungie also made grave errors in the way they handled Halo 3 overall. Putting aside (for now) my complaints on not nailing the story 100%, the focus will be on the multi-player aspect and its maps. Many players, as well as Bungie, have stated that Halo 3 is not the same game as Halo 1 and Halo 2. They would be right, on the surface. But fundamentally, what are the three things that made Halo great to begin with? It is what Bungie has referred to as the Golden Triangle of Halo: Weapons, Grenades and Melee. These are the strongest aspects of the Halo Trilogy. However, Halo 3 tried to include another point on the already perfect formula in the form of equipment. While I believe the inclusion of these rather mundane objects was necessary to a certain extent, the purpose was defeated when Bungie chose to remove three equipment items from regular match-making games (flare, deployable and radar jammer) and left four, thus limiting the appeal of equipment; to use something to your advantage by causing an instant of confusion in your opponent. After seeing countless bubble shields, regenerators and shield drainers used under orthodox circumstances it really brings about questions as to whether or not equipment has a place in this game at all now. The only real piece of equipment left that brings about unorthodox means of using it, is the the grav lift that can be used to launch an unsuspecting opponent into the air where they will be disoriented and confused for a few milliseconds. Grav lifts are generally only used as a means of getting to a place in a new way, so when used offensively it is quite thrilling. Also, having played the same maps for nearly a year now with barely any new content, I must say that I am extremely disappointed by the lack of memorable maps. The remake of Zanzibar was fraught with several bad decisions, such as up scaling the map, adding multiple ways into the base, scaffolding around the outside between the sniper tower and the base and by changing the configuration of the ground floor of the base. But Bungie showed that Halo 1 and Halo 2 maps could work in Halo 3, quite well even. But no matter how many times you play, Cold Storage and Black Out never seem to show up on the random map generator in Match-Making. It seems as Bungie decided to make maps be assigned at a uneven ratio, putting Cold Storage and Black Out at a 1% probability of being chosen. In Halo 2, there were maps that everyone enjoyed playing on. And perhaps the reason why Halo 2 was so beloved and so long running is because there were enough maps to rotate around so not everyone became bored and picked up another game to play. The problem with Halo 3 is that with a new system and a graphical overhaul, Bungie lost sight of what true gameplay was about. It became, "what can we do to make this game look awesome visually," instead of, "what will the players connect with and feel for?" When playing Black Out and Cold Storage, I get the sense of nostalgia and familiarity. It's the feeling you get when you've seen greatness, then relived it again. Ivory Tower, Coagulation, Midship, Waterworks, Ascension and Sanctuary to name a few, were excellent maps that played well and had a lasting impact on others. Problems People See With Bringing Re-Makes Back: 1. Equipment - The inclusion of equipment does affect the outcome of gameplay as a whole. By giving the player equipment, you give them more freedom. For example, a player in Halo 2 would not normally take an open route with limited cover when in Halo 3 you may do so without fear, albeit with your thumb hovering above the "X" button to deploy a bubble shield if you get ambushed. What makes Halo 1 & 2 maps memorable, is what their "flow" consists of (i.e. what are high traffic areas of the map). 2. More Weapons - More weapons to put on a map, with different effects and more choices for the player. Again, affects the flow of the map and how it is utilized. 3. Starting Weapons - The MA5C is the starting weapons apposed to the MA5B and Sub-Machine Gun. Both the MA5B and Sub-Machine Gun have a 60 round clip, with similar damage specs. The Sub-Machine Gun is a part of what Bungie saw as a problem in Halo 2, called the Dual-Wielding rush which took emphasis off of two-handed weapons. How To Avoid These Supposed Problems: 1. Minimize or Even Remove Equipment From Re-Makes - Do some research. Play Halo 2 again and analyze various routes. Black Out and Cold Storage proves that it's possible to include equipment and still remain faithful to the flow of the map. The shield drainer does very little to the flow of the game, it is the regenerator and bubble shield that change the pace of the game as the shield drainer is more of an offensive tool. Compare to a plasma pistol overcharged. 2. Don't Change The Formula - Weapon spawns in maps before Halo 3 were perfect. Don't change them. You can occasionally throw a Spiker where an SMG would originally spawn, but just find a clever new place to put the new weapons. Most weapons that were seen in Halo 2 are fundamentally the same with a few minor tweaks. 3. They're All Fundamentally the Same - The title says it. They're STARTING weapons; something that is good to start out with, that can hold it's own against other weapons but is easy to part with when a better opportunity comes along. And as far as Bungie regarding the Dual-Wielding Rush a problem, I find it absurd. The two MAJOR features of Halo 2 from Halo 1 was the ability to board enemy vehicles and DUAL-WIELD. I would still ditch an SMG and Plasma Rifle for a Battle Rifle and a free arm for a grenade throw any day. It was relatively balanced as is. Having played the MLG playlists, I can honestly say that I enjoy them. The choice to remove equipment, increase weapon damage and speed slightly and decrease shield recovery to 90% of normal was a good idea. There currently fans on the sidelines; people who still play Halo 2, those that play Halo 3 but never really enjoy it and those that wish for the old days but play other games. Halo has a distinctive style and no matter how well Gears of War 2 or CoD 4 plays, people will remember Halo more than those games. If there are any out there who agree, please post here. If you need more clarification, please ask. And if you disagree or think you have a counter to my argument, feel free to leave a comment that will promptly be put to rest through insanely brilliant logic and cunning.. When I check this post again. ------------------------------ Note: This post is merely an attempt to do Halo right again. I have no involvement with Bungie, though I do wish it. I happen to voice an opinion shared by a sect of people who wish Halo would return to it's rightful throne of multiplayer awesomeness. I happen to have a vision for the series, one that seemed to have been in sync with Bungie during Halo 1 and 2, but I feel the series has fallen upon it's own sword by several missteps. ------------------------------ [EDIT]Summary: Short and Sweet: Bringing back old multiplayer maps will bring back the feel of nostalgia and greatness. There are ways to modify and make these maps great without changing their flow like people seem to think will happen when importing to Halo 3. Read entire article for clarification and enlightenment before posting uninformed arguments. [Edited on 11.28.2008 9:40 AM PST]
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#Halo #Halo3

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  • Yeah, I mentioned it later in the thread.

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  • Dont forget Avalanche, thats a remake too!

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  • Equipment DID require quick thinking in the first month of the game, then became stale because EVERYONE uses them in a similar manner. However, some people actually use them in creative ways, but with things becoming more uniform the expected happens five-times more than the unexpected. Therefore it becomes bland quickly.

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  • A great read. FInally someone who wants the game to be changed but has a way to fix what he wants. I don't agree with you on the issue of equipment - equipment can change the flow of the battle immidiately which keeps the battle interesting, in my opinion. Can't just keep with the same strategy everytime, there'll be some bubble shield in your way, or perhaps a power drain being thrown in on your hiding spot.

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  • I totally agree with just about everything this guy says. i remember the ol' halo 2 days, and even tho i wasnt apart of it from the beginning, it was still long enough to apreciate the "flow" and fun factor that they had to offer. i would LOVE to see many remakes. Although, I never like waterworks-it was still apealing and im sorta having a self-realization as i type this that its not nearly as bad i felt all this time, seeing as i LOVE big maps with nice bases and its sight set on vehicular combat. I think that if they never remake Terminal or Turf, they should still make a similar one. One thats very urbanized, on earth, so that it feels closer to home and actually strikes a chord. I feel that failed to mention one key map though...Containment. I love that map , it had a beautiful snowy setting. And referring to Avalanche-i dont really feel its a very sufficient remake-seeing as Sidewinder had more winding (yes i realize i said winding after winder) corridors. Oh. And Valhalla may be very good looking, and Standoff interesting, but they are not good remakes or spiritual successors of Coagulation/Blood Gulch. Bungie needs to listen to their fans more and take into consideration what they say, because they normally so connected unless it comes to some core issues that real fans take on- as opposed to the ones that just got Halo 3, cuz it was huge and dont really understand names like Boarding Action, Wizard, Blood Gulch, Ivory Tower, Relic, Containment, or Chiron TL 34 Oh..they should bring back Chiron TL 34. My friends and i love that one, because of all the close quarters quick thinking..but then again it could easily be camped and shotgun-cornered, so i understand not putting in this one..but it would be nice Hang 'Em High was also good, but i really think they should remake Battle/Beaver Creek. that one was great, cuz not only do i love vehicle combat, but i love the utter hectic action that Battle/Beaver Creek had to offer

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  • Spartan B182: I agree with your post. Halo 3 [b] does [/b] seem to be slightly more flawed online. While it is fun, there is no doubt about that, it is slightly... lacking in certain areas. Your post is an excellent opinion (and one a agree with). I personally hope Bungie reads this and applies this gaming philosophy to the online gameplay. *nibbles on puppy*

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  • Time and money that both Microsoft and Bungie have almost an unlimited supply of. Both Microsoft and Bungie have multiple teams working on different projects. Maps could even be developed by third-party developers -- like the last two maps of Halo 2. Of course the would have to be approved. But the essential geometry should remain untouched. Two weeks per map is more than enough time, considering texturing and parallax mapping takes a maximum of four days in a controlled environment and with a full team of programmers.. It's fairly easy once you have years of practice. The thing that takes time is the actual concept of a map from scratch. You already have that part covered with remakes.

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  • Why not just bring back all the maps? Obviously because it costs time and money to do so.

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  • [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12qnoJF1Lus&feature=related[/url] this video disproves golden armor's video

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  • I like everyone's thoughts -- I'm glad people are taking this seriously. As far as the campaign thread.. I'll get on that soon. Perhaps tomorrow. Got a -blam!- ton of homework -- College is the ultimate life drain. Keep this post going guys.

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  • I have never played Halo 1 or 2 but I 100% agree with the defencive equiptment being removed. The regenerator and buuble shields are so anoying, I like the power drain very much though. [Edited on 11.30.2008 11:35 AM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] billtacular888 I think bungie should release a stand alone disc with some classics voted for by the majority it would sell well and have a certain playlist for them just like the DLC playlists for people with legendary maps it aint gonna happen but its a idea just for the die hard fans which is most people who post and dont flame everthing that they dont understand or dont want [/quote] I would buy that, I mean it does make sense, if Bungie listens to their community, which a vast majority, wants some maps back from halo 2, why not. [Edited on 11.30.2008 9:07 AM PST]

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  • I think bungie should release a stand alone disc with some classics voted for by the majority it would sell well and have a certain playlist for them just like the DLC playlists for people with legendary maps it aint gonna happen but its a idea just for the die hard fans which is most people who post and dont flame everthing that they dont understand or dont want

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  • 1000% Agreed

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  • "China wants their-..." Good post, i agreed with everything, i think warlock should be the final remade map. Halo 3 does not have a map as small as warlock, which is great for frenetic TS and Multi Flag games. This is what assembly was made to fill, but having some variety for this type of fast paced game, wouldnt be wrong. There was an issue with warlock (too many shotties) but cant this be fixed by reworking the weapon spawns a bit? Bungie has added new weapons and powerups, which could replace some of the old shotty spawns. I dont want to just play customs on warlock, with good attempts at a remake, but the flow is not there, forge cannot accurately remake warlock without using a budget glitch to begin with, and the ramps feel like an impediment on some of the remakes, among grenade jump problems. So i ask any bungie employee who may be reading this to give Warlock another shot. Youll be glad you did.

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  • You put A LOT of thought into this and I applaud you for it. It's not very often that someone makes such a decent and well organized post on these forums anymore. I agree about the equipment 100%. I've said that since before Halo 3 even came out...once it was confirmed to be in the game, I knew it was going to be an issue. There have been so many times where I will be BRing someone and just as I am about to kill them, they throw down a bubble shield and run around the corner. In Halo 2, that never would happen...it's very frustrating. If they want to bring back a great map...try Warlock or Midship...even Sanctuary or Ivory Tower. A Spartan would never waste the time to stop and use a piece of "equipment"...they would turn around and shoot back.

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  • The original bubble shield was like a flare and instead of standing straight up it would roll if you were on a hill which if kept original I guess it would add a fairness to it. Orbital is what I see as a last hope for the maps of Halo 3 its basically an X with opening and closing doors so that would bring back the RUN~N~GUN style back. That would also mean that With long openings there would be more cover in the hall. Also Isolation is the near perfect map with barely any power ups, with the exception of the Regenerators, I guess thats why everyone vetos it takes more skill to actually capture the hill and keep the top half of the map. [Edited on 11.30.2008 8:48 AM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] st3althsniper22 i agree with op's text wall[/quote] me to

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  • The reason blackout and Cold Storage are low rates to getting in a game is that its part of the newest dlc maps. Not everyone has the dlc also because it hasn't been free yet

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  • Wow. I see what your getting at.

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  • You need to get your campaign thread going on here.

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  • Wow, i was always looking for ways to say that and you did it in the best way. I agree with you 100%. MLG is 100x more fun because of no equipment. All bungie needs to do is just convert the Halo 2 maps to Halo 3 maps.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan B182 The Halo 3 Battle Rifle is only less effective due to slight inaccuracy (The first shot is dead-on, while the other two are skewed). Otherwise the damage was barely turned down and is still a good over-all weapon. It's fairly balanced with the MA5C.[/quote] ya thats why i was saying it was sad,i know the dmg hasent really been touched,but its inaccuracy just makes it fail very bad,for a weapon that is supposed to kill in 4shots to have it take an average of 6-8 in non mlg playlists is just stupid.

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  • The Halo 3 Battle Rifle is only less effective due to slight inaccuracy (The first shot is dead-on, while the other two are skewed). Otherwise the damage was barely turned down and is still a good over-all weapon. It's fairly balanced with the MA5C.

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  • one of the other things that made halo fun (atleast IMO)was a good all around weapon,the halo ce pistol (overpowered but still played ok) the halo2 br (only overpowered because of really bad auto aim and glitches) but in halo3 it is lacking,the br is a sad excuse for a weapon,the ar is still a short range spray n pray and the carbine is while a good weapon just a single shot br.I think that with some fine tunning to the weapons you could really have a good balence on that end of things and would help with the overall fun factor in the game. EDIT:kind of left my thoughts hanging. [Edited on 11.30.2008 12:09 AM PST]

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  • Let's keep posts intelligent -- do not act like a six-year-old kid who didn't get a toy at Wal-Mart. Anything that has no relevance to the actual topic is a waste of time that would be better spent elsewhere.

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