[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x Personally, I love the remakes, but they never quite have the feel of Halo 2. A lot of people tend to be disappointed in the remakes because it doesn't play the same as Halo 2 did -- but that is a result of many different factors. Running and jumping speeds are slightly changed between the two games, as well as player proportions, vehicles, and weapon characteristics. Like you said, Halo 3 has a distinctive style, and the addition of equipment makes it much less of a run-and-gun and much more strategic in many instances. I love the remakes, but I don't think that more remakes would really cause a HUGE jump in Halo 3's population any more than any other new map. [/quote] Exactly. If blackout was reverted to Halo 2 in every gameplay affecting way, even the starting weapons and respawns, It won't be the same because of how your player looks, the graphic, the different environment and the sounds. Go to halo 2 for that. [Edited on 12.01.2008 12:56 AM PST]

[i]"Captain, unknown classification approaching at 250 meters per second off our ten o' clock!" "By the gods, it's a wall!"[/i] Summary at the bottom. On the subject of equipment, I agree with you almost totally. The idea (and application in matchmaking,) of equipment has utterly ruined several maps and gametypes, some charred beyond recognition. Also, I can not think of solid benefits being reaped by equipment in the retail version of Halo Three. As an anecdote: who here dislikes King of the Hill in matchmaking now? Someone will almost inevitably grab a Shotty/Sword and camp with a Bubble Shield or Regenerator, rendering them nigh invincible from range (and near-impossible when you enter the range which you could effectively do something). However, on the subject of remakes, I have to dissent. Maps are built for one specific game to work well for that one specific game. It is much more difficult than just cutting-and-pasting a Lockout into Halo Three and expecting it to play well. In short, Halo Three is not Halo Two nor Halo: Combat Evolved. Maps built for the two latter games do not work seamlessly in the former. Ignoring equipment, the basic actions of characters in H3 is so different that straight remakes would not play well. The spawn system, weapon characteristics, running speed, shield and health recharge rates, as well as jump height and distance are so different from game to game that a carbon copy will just not 'click' the way the original did. As anecdote: I love Lockout and Chill Out with fiery passion. However, I detest Blackout sans BR start and Cold Storage is passable at best. While it should be noted that a great deal of my frustration with Blackout resides with map design decisions that seem... perhaps serendipitous, perhaps intended. (Whose idea was it to seal Library window? To not allow jumping access to S2 from Elbow, but to keep Shortcut? To break the straight line of sight all the way from Sniper Nades to B1?) Blackout could be a great map, but we need to make that disconnect from Lockout in order to fully appreciate what it could be. In short: I prefer spiritual successors for Halo Three (in moderation, with the correct 'spirits' in mind.) A map that goes through the works to better play in Halo Three's system is usually better than a map that is just plugged in and hoped to work, or so I believe. Some of the other points raised in this thread I'm going to have to shake up now... For example, decisions about DLC are made by Microsoft, NOT Bungie. If Microsoft wants to charge for the Legendary Maps until the Second Coming, that's their prerogative and their judgment is absolute. If Microsoft wants to order Bungie to increase Legendary required levels, or to restrict Cold Storage to Legendary required lists only, they can do that (either by contractual obligation or by incentive/penalty). Bungie has ZERO control over that. Incidentally, I think the reason that there are more social playlists than ranked is simple: statistics point to more Social players than Ranked. Social Slayer routinely has more players in it than its ranked counterpart, and DLC Big Team usually does better than Squad Battle... Aren't there only six social lists now? Slayer, Skirmish, DLC Big Team, DLC FFA, Rumble Pit, and Multi-Team? Why would you want to trim that? Multi-team is unique with four teams and the only two-per-team social list. BTB is the only eight-on-eight list there is. While Skirmish and/or DLC FFA could stand to be trimmed, there isn't an express need to. Also, while it is Bungie's realm to determine playlists and their content, removing Ranked BTB was ultimately a good move. Despite Heavies, no party restrictions, and Double Experience for at least a whole month, it could not sustain a decent population. Matches took excessively long to form, and then would usually lag like the dickens; further lowering the population. Sorry, but it had to happen. Keeping moribund playlists around just dilutes the rest of the experience, it's too large a drain on population. Requiring Legendary in five lists (Doubles, SWAT, Snipes, and the two DLC hoppers,) is one of two things: Bungie rewarding its fans who contribute for new content to be able to play more often in matchmaking (and allowing for Cold Storage to be in that playlist), or it's Microsoft trying to further stimulate sales of the Legendary maps. Which one you believe depends how rose-tinted your world view is. However, I tend to err towards the latter, considering the massive amount of incentives Microsoft has put behind selling that product. (Free Bungie Pro, Cold Storage, price reductions, etc.) In summation: An interesting mix of game features in lieu of certain design elements and oddities coupled with bewildering publisher tactics lead to what many deem a subpar experience. Sadly, much of this cannot be fixed now, or rather, will be. (I don't think we're going to see a removal of all equipment from matchmaking, a switch to SMG starts, a patch for the spawn system or BR or anything else not Forgable for that matter, and we're certainly not going to see a publisher change). Idea gets built, idea is played, idea receives feedback, idea grows and changes over time. Idea gets rebuilt... lather, rinse, repeat. It's the cycle of game building at its essence. There. Wall's gone, you can come out now.

I agree with most of your argument, but my curious mind has gotten the best of me. What game are you referring to when you stated that certain game were "less flawed"? [Edited on 11.30.2008 11:54 PM PST]

To the first reply: It's not a wall of text, it's nicely spaced. You could've just taken 5 minutes of your team to read this. It's well written. OP, I completely agree. The AR is too good for a starting weapon. I think Halo 3 would still work if you spawned with a SMG.

I totally agree wit this post! 100% We so need new maps!!! and no equipment in matchmaking!

As much as I appreciate you trying to promote my thread Sxzet49, please don't /bump.. Make a point, argument or agreement if you want to raise this thread on the list.

Need more posts!!

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hselaisse 117th post! YAY! sure there are problems with H3, but is it not the Best game in the world?![/quote] It has potential to be, but right now is being beat by game with not necessarily better BASE gameplay, but certainly less flawed.

117th post! YAY! sure there are problems with H3, but is it not the Best game in the world?!

To correct the Halo 3 = fail part.. Halo 3 = Epic Fail Due to missteps pointed out in the thread.

Halo 3 = fail bungie has a nice fanbase and all, too bad they dont listen to them. %97 of want the beta tripmine, they dont do -blam!-, they give us stupid updates. we wanted some big maps good remakes, they remake lockout but make it ugly we want old halo pc style game finders, so if we wanted multi flag on valhalla, we can find a hosted game they dont listen to us either way, were just dogs building maps with the -blam!- forge mode they gave us

toulatu: What was the point of that? There isn't any. So unless you have something intelligible to say, spew your stupidity elsewhere. [Edited on 11.30.2008 10:54 PM PST]

New maps have been lacking -- There isn't enough good gameplay in them. It's not ALL about nostalgia -- If it were, we would all play Halo 2 and Halo: Combat Evolved exclusively. Originality is not lacking in these new maps. The man cannon was original. Good gameplay? Arguably weak. Shield walls fall under the same category. If I had faith in Bungie's new and old Halo 3 maps, I wouldn't have made this post.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan B182 [EDIT]Scroll down for summary -------------------------- I, for one, am upset at Bungie's decision to not import, re-texture and release remakes of obviously superior maps (i.e. Halo: Combat Evolved and Halo 2 Maps). This is obviously an exception for Black Out and Cold Storage, as they are ACTUAL remakes of beloved maps. Before jumping down my throat, I would like to state, for the record, that I am a die-hard Bungie fan. Far before the Halo series, I played Oni and Marathon avidly. That being said, I believe Bungie also made grave errors in the way they handled Halo 3 overall. Putting aside (for now) my complaints on not nailing the story 100%, the focus will be on the multi-player aspect and its maps. Many players, as well as Bungie, have stated that Halo 3 is not the same game as Halo 1 and Halo 2. They would be right, on the surface. But fundamentally, what are the three things that made Halo great to begin with? It is what Bungie has referred to as the Golden Triangle of Halo: Weapons, Grenades and Melee. These are the strongest aspects of the Halo Trilogy. However, Halo 3 tried to include another point on the already perfect formula in the form of equipment. While I believe the inclusion of these rather mundane objects was necessary to a certain extent, the purpose was defeated when Bungie chose to remove three equipment items from regular match-making games (flare, deployable and radar jammer) and left four, thus limiting the appeal of equipment; to use something to your advantage by causing an instant of confusion in your opponent. After seeing countless bubble shields, regenerators and shield drainers used under orthodox circumstances it really brings about questions as to whether or not equipment has a place in this game at all now. The only real piece of equipment left that brings about unorthodox means of using it, is the the grav lift that can be used to launch an unsuspecting opponent into the air where they will be disoriented and confused for a few milliseconds. Grav lifts are generally only used as a means of getting to a place in a new way, so when used offensively it is quite thrilling. Also, having played the same maps for nearly a year now with barely any new content, I must say that I am extremely disappointed by the lack of memorable maps. The remake of Zanzibar was fraught with several bad decisions, such as up scaling the map, adding multiple ways into the base, scaffolding around the outside between the sniper tower and the base and by changing the configuration of the ground floor of the base. But Bungie showed that Halo 1 and Halo 2 maps could work in Halo 3, quite well even. But no matter how many times you play, Cold Storage and Black Out never seem to show up on the random map generator in Match-Making. It seems as Bungie decided to make maps be assigned at a uneven ratio, putting Cold Storage and Black Out at a 1% probability of being chosen. In Halo 2, there were maps that everyone enjoyed playing on. And perhaps the reason why Halo 2 was so beloved and so long running is because there were enough maps to rotate around so not everyone became bored and picked up another game to play. The problem with Halo 3 is that with a new system and a graphical overhaul, Bungie lost sight of what true gameplay was about. It became, "what can we do to make this game look awesome visually," instead of, "what will the players connect with and feel for?" When playing Black Out and Cold Storage, I get the sense of nostalgia and familiarity. It's the feeling you get when you've seen greatness, then relived it again. Ivory Tower, Coagulation, Midship, Waterworks, Ascension and Sanctuary to name a few, were excellent maps that played well and had a lasting impact on others. Problems People See With Bringing Re-Makes Back: 1. Equipment - The inclusion of equipment does affect the outcome of gameplay as a whole. By giving the player equipment, you give them more freedom. For example, a player in Halo 2 would not normally take an open route with limited cover when in Halo 3 you may do so without fear, albeit with your thumb hovering above the "X" button to deploy a bubble shield if you get ambushed. What makes Halo 1 & 2 maps memorable, is what their "flow" consists of (i.e. what are high traffic areas of the map). 2. More Weapons - More weapons to put on a map, with different effects and more choices for the player. Again, affects the flow of the map and how it is utilized. 3. Starting Weapons - The MA5C is the starting weapons apposed to the MA5B and Sub-Machine Gun. Both the MA5B and Sub-Machine Gun have a 60 round clip, with similar damage specs. The Sub-Machine Gun is a part of what Bungie saw as a problem in Halo 2, called the Dual-Wielding rush which took emphasis off of two-handed weapons. How To Avoid These Supposed Problems: 1. Minimize or Even Remove Equipment From Re-Makes - Do some research. Play Halo 2 again and analyze various routes. Black Out and Cold Storage proves that it's possible to include equipment and still remain faithful to the flow of the map. The shield drainer does very little to the flow of the game, it is the regenerator and bubble shield that change the pace of the game as the shield drainer is more of an offensive tool. Compare to a plasma pistol overcharged. 2. Don't Change The Formula - Weapon spawns in maps before Halo 3 were perfect. Don't change them. You can occasionally throw a Spiker where an SMG would originally spawn, but just find a clever new place to put the new weapons. Most weapons that were seen in Halo 2 are fundamentally the same with a few minor tweaks. 3. They're All Fundamentally the Same - The title says it. They're STARTING weapons; something that is good to start out with, that can hold it's own against other weapons but is easy to part with when a better opportunity comes along. And as far as Bungie regarding the Dual-Wielding Rush a problem, I find it absurd. The two MAJOR features of Halo 2 from Halo 1 was the ability to board enemy vehicles and DUAL-WIELD. I would still ditch an SMG and Plasma Rifle for a Battle Rifle and a free arm for a grenade throw any day. It was relatively balanced as is. Having played the MLG playlists, I can honestly say that I enjoy them. The choice to remove equipment, increase weapon damage and speed slightly and decrease shield recovery to 90% of normal was a good idea. There currently fans on the sidelines; people who still play Halo 2, those that play Halo 3 but never really enjoy it and those that wish for the old days but play other games. Halo has a distinctive style and no matter how well Gears of War 2 or CoD 4 plays, people will remember Halo more than those games. If there are any out there who agree, please post here. If you need more clarification, please ask. And if you disagree or think you have a counter to my argument, feel free to leave a comment that will promptly be put to rest through insanely brilliant logic and cunning.. When I check this post again. ------------------------------ Note: This post is merely an attempt to do Halo right again. I have no involvement with Bungie, though I do wish it. I happen to voice an opinion shared by a sect of people who wish Halo would return to it's rightful throne of multiplayer awesomeness. I happen to have a vision for the series, one that seemed to have been in sync with Bungie during Halo 1 and 2, but I feel the series has fallen upon it's own sword by several missteps. ------------------------------ [EDIT]Summary: Short and Sweet: Bringing back old multiplayer maps will bring back the feel of nostalgia and greatness. There are ways to modify and make these maps great without changing their flow like people seem to think will happen when importing to Halo 3. Read entire article for clarification and enlightenment before posting uninformed arguments. [/quote] AARGh..... i just drowned in yer text! teh much...... *dies by suffication*

I think originality is more important than nostalgia. I would rather have had Assembly to Avalanche, in fact. The thing is, If they remade every good and nostalgic map, they would have no time to make new maps and such. One more remake maximum, I hope. I would take Orbital over MidShip.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] EchoGamer Great read, you really addressed the points I felt over complicated Halo 3, and what made it feel less like "Halo".[/quote] I tend to agree.

Great read, you really addressed the points I felt over complicated Halo 3, and what made it feel less like "Halo".

i agree with you halo 3 just isnt as fun as halo 2 was [Edited on 11.30.2008 10:29 PM PST]

Exactly. New isn't always good or smart.

I agree. Equipment was a new and interesting idea to implement and change the gameplay so that the games last longer and makes the player think a little more. But what made Halo Halo was the golden triangle of Halo (Weapons, Grenade, and Melee). To me what makes SWAT and the MLG playlists fun and enjoyable is because it brings back the familiar feel of Halo: CE and Halo 2 that players have grown accustom too.

Yeah, my wrist started hurting bad, so i just listed a few, but I still said just to name a few. Those are definitely great maps.

u forgot 2 mention terminal and warlock =) and sham wow is the most annoying commercial ever

If you're not going to read the entire report then don't post on the thread. There's no point. And there are multiple teams working on different aspects of the game. One team is working on ODST and one team is working on multiplayer maps. So before you post, make sure your post has some sort of solid ground-work to go on. Multiplayer has more longevity than ODST, due to it being active for many years. ODST will give Bungie and Microsoft's cash flow a significant spike, but it's the multiplayer is what keeps the money rolling in. Obviously you don't understand even the simplest of economic concepts. [Edited on 11.30.2008 10:14 PM PST]

I don't need to read your entire report on remakes to know this: Bungie, in no way, has to waste their time in remaking maps for the select few who truly want them back. It would not be as beneficial to them as making a new game would (Halo 3: ODST).

Yeah, I mentioned it later in the thread.