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#Halo

11/28/2008 8:33:56 AM
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Halo 3 Multi-Player: Revert to Last Checkpoint

[EDIT]Scroll down for summary -------------------------- I, for one, am upset at Bungie's decision to not import, re-texture and release remakes of obviously superior maps (i.e. Halo: Combat Evolved and Halo 2 Maps). This is obviously an exception for Black Out and Cold Storage, as they are ACTUAL remakes of beloved maps. Before jumping down my throat, I would like to state, for the record, that I am a die-hard Bungie fan. Far before the Halo series, I played Oni and Marathon avidly. That being said, I believe Bungie also made grave errors in the way they handled Halo 3 overall. Putting aside (for now) my complaints on not nailing the story 100%, the focus will be on the multi-player aspect and its maps. Many players, as well as Bungie, have stated that Halo 3 is not the same game as Halo 1 and Halo 2. They would be right, on the surface. But fundamentally, what are the three things that made Halo great to begin with? It is what Bungie has referred to as the Golden Triangle of Halo: Weapons, Grenades and Melee. These are the strongest aspects of the Halo Trilogy. However, Halo 3 tried to include another point on the already perfect formula in the form of equipment. While I believe the inclusion of these rather mundane objects was necessary to a certain extent, the purpose was defeated when Bungie chose to remove three equipment items from regular match-making games (flare, deployable and radar jammer) and left four, thus limiting the appeal of equipment; to use something to your advantage by causing an instant of confusion in your opponent. After seeing countless bubble shields, regenerators and shield drainers used under orthodox circumstances it really brings about questions as to whether or not equipment has a place in this game at all now. The only real piece of equipment left that brings about unorthodox means of using it, is the the grav lift that can be used to launch an unsuspecting opponent into the air where they will be disoriented and confused for a few milliseconds. Grav lifts are generally only used as a means of getting to a place in a new way, so when used offensively it is quite thrilling. Also, having played the same maps for nearly a year now with barely any new content, I must say that I am extremely disappointed by the lack of memorable maps. The remake of Zanzibar was fraught with several bad decisions, such as up scaling the map, adding multiple ways into the base, scaffolding around the outside between the sniper tower and the base and by changing the configuration of the ground floor of the base. But Bungie showed that Halo 1 and Halo 2 maps could work in Halo 3, quite well even. But no matter how many times you play, Cold Storage and Black Out never seem to show up on the random map generator in Match-Making. It seems as Bungie decided to make maps be assigned at a uneven ratio, putting Cold Storage and Black Out at a 1% probability of being chosen. In Halo 2, there were maps that everyone enjoyed playing on. And perhaps the reason why Halo 2 was so beloved and so long running is because there were enough maps to rotate around so not everyone became bored and picked up another game to play. The problem with Halo 3 is that with a new system and a graphical overhaul, Bungie lost sight of what true gameplay was about. It became, "what can we do to make this game look awesome visually," instead of, "what will the players connect with and feel for?" When playing Black Out and Cold Storage, I get the sense of nostalgia and familiarity. It's the feeling you get when you've seen greatness, then relived it again. Ivory Tower, Coagulation, Midship, Waterworks, Ascension and Sanctuary to name a few, were excellent maps that played well and had a lasting impact on others. Problems People See With Bringing Re-Makes Back: 1. Equipment - The inclusion of equipment does affect the outcome of gameplay as a whole. By giving the player equipment, you give them more freedom. For example, a player in Halo 2 would not normally take an open route with limited cover when in Halo 3 you may do so without fear, albeit with your thumb hovering above the "X" button to deploy a bubble shield if you get ambushed. What makes Halo 1 & 2 maps memorable, is what their "flow" consists of (i.e. what are high traffic areas of the map). 2. More Weapons - More weapons to put on a map, with different effects and more choices for the player. Again, affects the flow of the map and how it is utilized. 3. Starting Weapons - The MA5C is the starting weapons apposed to the MA5B and Sub-Machine Gun. Both the MA5B and Sub-Machine Gun have a 60 round clip, with similar damage specs. The Sub-Machine Gun is a part of what Bungie saw as a problem in Halo 2, called the Dual-Wielding rush which took emphasis off of two-handed weapons. How To Avoid These Supposed Problems: 1. Minimize or Even Remove Equipment From Re-Makes - Do some research. Play Halo 2 again and analyze various routes. Black Out and Cold Storage proves that it's possible to include equipment and still remain faithful to the flow of the map. The shield drainer does very little to the flow of the game, it is the regenerator and bubble shield that change the pace of the game as the shield drainer is more of an offensive tool. Compare to a plasma pistol overcharged. 2. Don't Change The Formula - Weapon spawns in maps before Halo 3 were perfect. Don't change them. You can occasionally throw a Spiker where an SMG would originally spawn, but just find a clever new place to put the new weapons. Most weapons that were seen in Halo 2 are fundamentally the same with a few minor tweaks. 3. They're All Fundamentally the Same - The title says it. They're STARTING weapons; something that is good to start out with, that can hold it's own against other weapons but is easy to part with when a better opportunity comes along. And as far as Bungie regarding the Dual-Wielding Rush a problem, I find it absurd. The two MAJOR features of Halo 2 from Halo 1 was the ability to board enemy vehicles and DUAL-WIELD. I would still ditch an SMG and Plasma Rifle for a Battle Rifle and a free arm for a grenade throw any day. It was relatively balanced as is. Having played the MLG playlists, I can honestly say that I enjoy them. The choice to remove equipment, increase weapon damage and speed slightly and decrease shield recovery to 90% of normal was a good idea. There currently fans on the sidelines; people who still play Halo 2, those that play Halo 3 but never really enjoy it and those that wish for the old days but play other games. Halo has a distinctive style and no matter how well Gears of War 2 or CoD 4 plays, people will remember Halo more than those games. If there are any out there who agree, please post here. If you need more clarification, please ask. And if you disagree or think you have a counter to my argument, feel free to leave a comment that will promptly be put to rest through insanely brilliant logic and cunning.. When I check this post again. ------------------------------ Note: This post is merely an attempt to do Halo right again. I have no involvement with Bungie, though I do wish it. I happen to voice an opinion shared by a sect of people who wish Halo would return to it's rightful throne of multiplayer awesomeness. I happen to have a vision for the series, one that seemed to have been in sync with Bungie during Halo 1 and 2, but I feel the series has fallen upon it's own sword by several missteps. ------------------------------ [EDIT]Summary: Short and Sweet: Bringing back old multiplayer maps will bring back the feel of nostalgia and greatness. There are ways to modify and make these maps great without changing their flow like people seem to think will happen when importing to Halo 3. Read entire article for clarification and enlightenment before posting uninformed arguments. [Edited on 11.28.2008 9:40 AM PST]
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#Halo #Halo3

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  • If you take out equipment, the new weapons and change the starting weapon, what do you get? A graphical overhaul of Halo2! Yet you said Halo 2 maps were perfect, and the problem is how Bungie now thinks maps should look good instead of playing good. I see a contradiction here. Nowadays you have to go back in time if you want the simpler one. Games become bigger and more diverse with time. Halo2 is good, but outdated. I doubt just the better graphics are the thing that makes people play Halo3 instead of Halo2. And if the graphics are the only reason, then Bungie just is right in the supposed "Looks over gameplay" thinking. I agree Halo3 maps are not perfect at all. But have the maps turned so bad when you really think about it. Halo1 is best in maps, but they are simple and lined. This day just isn't yesterday. Although Halo3 does seem to have too much stuff for the levels, in multiplayer and in campaign. The old HaloCE set would have done just fine even today. Again, more diversity and size just for the sake of evolution. Someone can say Pong is perfect.

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  • Let's not forget that the Mythic maps may hold a surprise or two.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan B182 Name one five spectacular maps in Halo 3.[/quote] Guardian, The Pit, Blackout, Avalanche, Cold Storage, Construct, Last Resort, Valhalla, and Narrows. [quote]Now, name seven spectacular maps in Halo 2.[/quote] Lockout, Ascension, Coag, Elongation, Ivory Tower, Warlock, Midship, Relic, Sanctuary, Terminal, Turf, and Zanzibar. [quote](Five vs. seven is fair; there is less maps in Halo 3.)[/quote] So, 9 vs. 12 is even better then. 9/18 = 50%. 12/23 = 52%. Pretty darn close if you ask me.

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  • Halo 3: ... Next? Halo 2: All.

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  • Name one five spectacular maps in Halo 3. Now, name seven spectacular maps in Halo 2. (Five vs. seven is fair; there is less maps in Halo 3.)

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan B182 Bad maps are not always a matter of opinion. But you are entitled to your opinion.[/quote] Exactly. There are few maps in H3 that are horrible, one being a map that wasn't made to play on. And i love Rat's Nest, BTW.

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  • I feel the same way.

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  • I agree 100% I've played 10,000 games of Halo 2 and it never got old, then Halo 3 came out and I've only played 5000 games and it's boring to me, so I agree that they should make some changes. [Edited on 12.02.2008 8:03 PM PST]

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  • Bad maps are not always a matter of opinion. But you are entitled to your opinion.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan B182 Equipment is not the same as a power weapon, because there is enough on the map and the spawns are a joke -- They spawn far too often to be considered power weapons. Plus they have no offensive capabilities. Anything equipment can accomplish can be used in the form of a power-up. Equipment is just a portable version of power-ups. It's ridiculous. There are good maps, I didn't say that there wasn't so your argument is invalid. Again, I wish people would read the entire post instead of people going on with a ridiculous concept. There are MORE superior maps in Halo 2. That is all.[/quote] Equipment are underused and overplaced, i will admit that. The reason for it is that Bungie is trying to show it off, though instead even less people understand it. And there are more maps in Halo 2, so there are more better ones. Most H3 maps are pretty good, with a few exceptions, just like in H2. Also, a lot of your "bad" maps i really like. It's a matter of opinion. [Edited on 12.02.2008 1:59 PM PST]

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  • Equipment is not the same as a power weapon, because there is enough on the map and the spawns are a joke -- They spawn far too often to be considered power weapons. Plus they have no offensive capabilities. Anything equipment can accomplish can be used in the form of a power-up. Equipment is just a portable version of power-ups. It's ridiculous. There are good maps, I didn't say that there wasn't so your argument is invalid. Again, I wish people would read the entire post instead of people going on with a ridiculous concept. There are MORE superior maps in Halo 2. That is all.

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  • The big thing i disagree with is how you make every map seem bad, and every H2 map seem good. There are absolutely amazing maps out there in H3. I do think that there was a veichle hole, but that seems fixed up with Avalanche. If the key hole fighting bothers you so much, get a ghost and plow through. You can get quite a few splatters. Look at Construct, Guardian, The Pit, and other such game. The only two maps that seem bad are Isolation and Default Foundry, but foundry is a forge map, don't know why it's even in matchmaking. Valhalla is pretty damn good, it's not like BG, but it shouldn't have to be. Standoff is amazing, though the spawns can get annoying with an enemy warthog killing you off the spawn. High Ground is good with BR's, if you don't charge to far out onto the beach and keep the base. Also, i see you are saying points are stupid to everyone who disagrees with you, while saying thank you to idiots who do agree. Equipment is underrated. Equipment, especially like the Regenerator, are power weapons, the Regenerator is like an overshield, but comes back and can be used to help teammates. Bubble Shields are great to protect the flag carrier and face down a team if you have a close range weapon. The power drain is the most fun to use, and can be used agressively or give an area of no acess for a few seconds. The trip mine is pretty much a frag grenade that can go through shield doors and Bubble Shields, and will stay there for 90 seconds until someone walks by. I think it should be implemented more in maps such as Foundry or The Pit, non-veichliar maps. It is different, not bad. The only really bad part is when the wall scenery starts playing racketball with your grenades >.<

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] apocolyps just play halo 2, and leave the great halo 3 to the rest of us true fans ! [/quote] Child.. Grow up. That's all I can say. If people are so ignorant and unwilling to read, then they really have no point in being here. The fact of the matter is that you probably couldn't comprehend some vocabulary choices in this post, and decided that instead of using your brain, that you were going to make a post demeaning yourself. You are stupid, you made no point and you have no reason being online if you can't go to school first and get a brain. I'm sorry, but people's stupidity and lack of common sense is irksome. It has much to be desired.

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  • just play halo 2, and leave the great halo 3 to the rest of us true fans !

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  • could some one read this too me, the text overloaded my eyes......now i can't play halo 3 today :(

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MyGTisasecret [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UnHoLy TERR0R china called.....[/quote] have you ever made a constructive post??[/quote] Probably not. It is true, though, that you don't have to use your brain to think tactically in Halo 3. As long as you have a piece of equipment, who needs a safe route through the actual map; just charge in straight line. Equipment doesn't make Halo 3 tactical, it takes what was tactical in a run-and-gun (which isn't much) then destroys it completely and utterly. The Halo series is know for it's fast and frantic firefights; they only last, on average, three seconds. Take equipment and it draws it out another one or two seconds -- and that's too long. It might as well be Gears of War's pop and shoot: "I'll throw down this bubble shield and pop out and shoot a few people."

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UnHoLy TERR0R china called.....[/quote] have you ever made a constructive post??

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  • china called.....

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  • Great thread. everythings rights about the fact that theres no fear no more "safe routes" to take. Rethinking your actions on what you should do next because of the fact you have a safe guard at your disposal (the "x" button.) You took the thought i couldnt explain right out of my brain. Thanks, i enjoyed every word of it.

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  • TBH I completely agree with this.In my opinion Halo 3 will not go as long as Halo 2 because of multi-player and also the fact that a 50 in Halo 2 was amazing but a 50 in Halo 3 means you boosted or need little to no skill at all.This is just what I think will be then downfall of Halo 3.

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  • They removed the flare and radar jammer because idiots miss used it to annoy people. It was annoying and could have been a great device but no, the noobs did it again.

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  • Lol. Paladin = Pwnt.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SpanishMASH Yes, but why everytime that they have remade a map, they have had to do something fancy with the graphics, that add nothing to gameplay? Yes, Bungie we know you have good artists, now sit down and finish your work. They seem to concentrate on graphics and looks now, instead of gameplay, which is the most important part of any game. Sure that Flood Biomass may look cool, but does it it get in the way of grenades? Bullets? Backpedaling? Yep, and it really Shouldn't.[/quote] I see what you mean, that was exactly the case for COD4, if its all about graphics the game play suffers

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan B182 Paladin, you really seem to be missing the point.. Halo 2 weapons can not be imported into Halo 3 the game, therefore making your point completely invalid. We're talking about the Halo 2 SMG Vs. the Halo 3 Assault Rifle. So.. Way to argue a point when it has no validity. And I swear to God, if one more person says to play Halo 2 for Halo 2 maps.. There is no point to saying that because we're talking about Halo 2 map remakes for Halo 3 a game that still has life and playability. I will say this ONE more time: If you can manage to get 100,000 people to play Halo 2, then do so and I will shut this thread down. But you can't do that, so stop saying it. And as a side note: There are more weapons in Halo 3 than there are in Halo 2. Some people..[/quote] It's really a shame that people are trying to argue the same damn failed point over and over. Halo 3 isn't perfect. Neither was CE or 2 but they had less flaws then this game. I appauld you for creating excellent points and continueing to back them up.

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  • Paladin, you really seem to be missing the point.. Halo 2 weapons can not be imported into Halo 3 the game, therefore making your point completely invalid. We're talking about the Halo 2 SMG Vs. the Halo 3 Assault Rifle. So.. Way to argue a point when it has no validity. And to try and be smart with your mathematics equations. That would be the Transitive Property of Equality. And well.. Too bad it didn't make your point any more smart. And I swear to God, if one more person says to play Halo 2 for Halo 2 maps.. There is no point to saying that because we're talking about Halo 2 map remakes for Halo 3 a game that still has life and playability. I will say this ONE more time: If you can manage to get 100,000 people to play Halo 2, then do so and I will shut this thread down. But you can't do that, so stop saying it. And as a side note: There are more weapons in Halo 3 than there are in Halo 2. Some people.. [Edited on 12.01.2008 8:37 PM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Disparil I really think if they are going to make a remake they should keep it the same as the original as far as layout is concerned. Obviously with a more powerful console at there disposal they can experiment with graphics etc but they shouldn't modify the layout, the leading example is Black Out. I'd almost name last resort but I just think its another Zanzibar type installation somewhere else in the Haloverse[/quote] Yes, but why everytime that they have remade a map, they have had to do something fancy with the graphics, that add nothing to gameplay? Yes, Bungie we know you have good artists, now sit down and finish your work. They seem to concentrate on graphics and looks now, instead of gameplay, which is the most important part of any game. Sure that Flood Biomass may look cool, but does it it get in the way of grenades? Bullets? Backpedaling? Yep, and it really Shouldn't. [Edited on 12.01.2008 8:15 PM PST]

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