Nice try, but scores [i]that[/i] low are an issue. It's clear that the majority of players found it downright unplayable and that does say dm something. I was a big D fan too but c'mon this dlc shenanigans is bad

oh also they arent excluding anyone. its a game. its a multiplayer game. thats like saying world of warcraft is excluding people by being an MMORPG. what kind of exclusion are you talking about? If you dont have the dlc you can still do all the old stuff, the only thing you cant do is the nightfall if its the dlc strike or the daily if its a dlc mission which is to be expected. no one complains about buying a fighting game or a shooter and not having access to content other people paid for. An expansion means continuing with the same world but with more stuff. That stuff is what you pay for, if you dont pay y would you get access to it while others are paying?

I think when he said excluding people he wasn't talking about dlc only content cos thats obvious if you didnt pay for the content you dont get to play it (even if it was already on the disc) but I think he was referring to bungies attitude "dont have 5 friends online to play a raid? well sucks to be you then" and in the open world or strikes everyone is automuted and to join someone you cant just team up you need to mess through interface to invite them so they can go to orbit to load back into a world they were already in or by unplayable he may be talking about how buggy it can be to the point where you team cant do it

destiny is a shared world first person with MMO and RPG like elements in other words its an always multiplayer game. no one criticizes witcher for being a single player game

but its a multiplayer game with shockingly low social features and with so much endgame content requiring a group it makes the lack of social features even more of an issue thats why it gets criticized and the witcher 3 doesn't for being single player the witcher 3 doesn't rely on a feature not present in the game same reason halo didn't get criticized for not having RPG elements until halo reach where they did them but did them quite poorly

Really? Halo Reach tried RPG elements? What were those elements? Armor customization? Done in Halo 3 and started in Halo 2. Firefight voice? Done in ODST. They didn't try any sort of RPG like elements in Reach, just like there are none in Destiny. No role is being played and our characters (known as Guardians) have less personality than Dinklebot. Bungie tells you what to do in the game with daily bounties and story missions as well as the weekly strikes and raids. Choose your Destiny, cake or death.

its the bare bones RPG elements but being able to pick your armour ability and loadout it took halo away from arena FPS where everyone spawns equal with skill being the only difference between players to an FPS where "class" choice had an impact on gameplay these elements where expanded on in destiny being able to choose your class and weapons RPG's are more than just about story its also about choosing your build and your choices mattering in combat that said good story has pretty much become a staple of RPG's and destiny does epically fail in this regard same with MMO/shared world elements having good social features

Those aren't RPG elements, they're element practically every genre of game uses. And no, RPG means Role Playing Game, not combat customization game. Role playing means you play a role, not customize your combat abilities. Customizable combat abilities are a byproduct of MANY game genres, not the defining characteristic of them. There is no way in hell you can hope to defend the claim the Reach dabbled in RPG elements.

so roleplaying a ranger, mage or knight isnt roleplaying??? sorry I meant hunter, warlock and titan FPS's were pretty much just point and shoot arena style everyone spawns the same even up to halo 3 halo followed that core FPS principle RPG elements started becoming common in FPS's after COD with its loadouts allowing players to "roleplay" a sniper, a shotgunner and etc and those changers were pretty good so they became more and more common by your logic Boarderlands isn't an RPG cause you just pick a premade character that you customize their combat abilities the key part of an RPG is choice whether it be combat loadouts, story, team make up just look at some jrpg's you can only customize weapon loadouts but you have no impact of the story or your character

halo reach cannot be classified of having RPG elements because in that case pretty much any game that has any kind of class set up, even if there is no distinction between pve and pvp can be an RPG. this would make elements in COD Rpg even though that is not where those elements originate from. The category of RPG is defined as the combination of those elements in one game. You are missng the most important aspect of an RPG and focusing only on the minor attachments. The biggest part of an RPG is assuming a role and interacting within a world whether it is only with AI or with friends. So destiny is not an RPG but is a different category defined as Shared world shooter with MMO and RPG elements in it. Halo reach, or any halo for that matter is not borrowing from the RPG pool of features because the features it uses existed long before the defined genre of RPG. Halo also does not have a world and does not let you assume an active role within that world as even the campaign is linear.

all im saying is the aspect of choosing 1 of various roles to play is an aspect that originated/popularized in gaming from the RPG genre and is becoming quite popular in other genres just look at mass effect a series im sure we can all agree is a true full blown RPG but compare mass effect 3 multiplayer to Destinys PoE in both horde modes you can pick your class, tweak your powers, weapons loadout, various builds play differently and sync with other builds in different ways there is some overlap and not just because they're both horde mode as halo 3:odst firefight doesn't have that overlap and hell Gears of war horde mode even went the tower defense root allowing you to build turrets/barricades not to the point where we would even mention tower defense to describe GoW genre but those features were clearly inspired from that genre

i am not sure you know where the fps and shooter genres and where the RPG genre originates from. The core RPG literally is governed by the idea that you pick a role to play inside of a world whether it is populated by other players or more commonly NPCs. You are confusing what RPGs have become as opposed to what they actually are at their core. This is exactly my argument. Having a class set up with different weapons is not a feature exclusive to the origins of RPGs but rather a feature that many genres have come to incorporate in their games. It just so happens that these features mesh really well with what we know as the modern RPG. You cannot compare these two at their core which is why reach does not have core RPG features but rather features that come as extras in many modern RPGs. The core however still remains that you need a world that is populated and not linear for example even the earliest form of the RPG which is table top or the first real RPG in a visual representation known as DND. Mass Effect is an RPG for many different reasons which once again include some decision making, playing an active role, and NPCs. it just so happens that the game also has a wave like mode in it. Destiny is not an RPG but it shares slight elements like the persistent world and the NPCs but the reason it is not a full blown RPG is because you play no real role and also because it dances on that line between FPS RPG and MMO RPG thus giving it the new classification of shared world shooter with MMO rpg like elements blended in. This should serve as enough reason for destiny to not operate like a traditional RPG because it is not

Give me a break, Jedi Knight was using those concepts LONG before Halo even came out, and that game was NOT considered RPG. Those types of options are present in most game types, and were NOT originally adopted in RPGs. By your (very loose) definition of an RPG, EVERY GAME IN EXISTENCE is one because you're not playing as yourself. Destiny, Halo, CoD, Boarderlands are not RPGs, as you don't get to decide how your character interacts with the story (hence no role is being played). Destiny and Boarderlands are customized shooter/looters with some MMO, Halo is a customized shooter (can't speak exactly for CoD because I've never played it, but I would assume it falls into this category as well). The common denominator in all of these is that you, the player, regardless of how you customize your character, have absolutely no impact of how anything plays out in the game. You follow a prescribed path and pull triggers to progress. There is absolutely no difference to the outcome of the game based on who you take into combat, other than individual tactical preference. Your individual statistics have no bearing on weather or not the team can complete the quest. So I say again, there is no role being played. If a role were being played, your tactical performance would actually impact the rest of the game (i.e mission tree, or even cause some kind of punitive event for mission failures). So what, you can change the way your character looks, that's purely cosmetic and doesn't mean a role is being played. The key part of RPG is the fact that you assume a role to influence the outcome. WoW IS an RPG because there is a necessity to have certain character archetypes represented in order to successfully complete certain missions. That is not the case with Destiny. It's like saying Warhammer 40k is an RPG because you can customize your army when it's clearly a tabletop strategy game (whereas, say, Dungeons and Dragons is a tabletop RPG). The point is that game developers wrongly assign the genre RPG to games because they want to reach the group of gamers that favor that genre and bring them into the fold of their new product in order to sell more copies. Gullible gamers, such as yourself, actually believe them and perpetuate the lie so that the term RPG becomes too easily applicable to any game these days. There is a difference between being a little bit wrong and being a lot wrong (a tomato being a vegetable is a little wrong, a tomato being a suspension bridge is a lot wrong). Neither are more right, as they are both wrong. It doesn't matter how much you try to blur the definition of RPG to suit your own argument because in the end, you're still simply wrong.

destiny is simply not an RPG but it has elements from RPG games in it. The proper classification of destiny is a "shared world fps with MMO and RPG elements in it"

Nope, it doesn't even have elements of RPGs in it. RPGs have elements shared by nearly all genres and those are the ones you're mistaking for RPG definitive ones. Weapons and subclass are all tactical decisions and can change at a moment's notice. Even your skills in a subclass can be changed to suit a tactical need. That doesn't mean those are RPG elements, it just means there is an added layer of tactical consideration to the game. Games must always add layers to the tactics otherwise we would only ever play 2D games where "looking up" is irrelevant (meaning depth is ignored). I agree with the MMO elements as the only definitive feature of an MMO is having a large number of people inhabiting the world at once, but not necessarily pursuing the same objective. Destiny just lacks the massive scale for obvious reasons related to gameplay.

RPG at its core is defined by having a consistent world that is populated either by other players or NPCs. that is the very core and that is what destiny shares with RPGs. this does not make it an RPG since it also has the concept of weekly raids and strikes which are kind of like dungeons. That is the reason for the new classification because the existence of a persistent world populated by either other players or NPCs is the core of and RPG game along with playing an active role in the world which you can somewhat do in destiny. i actually agree with the idea that a class or customized loadout are not features of the core RPG but rather layers that we often find in the modern RPG.

By your definition, every game is an RPG because no game is not populated by characters, NPC or otherwise (well, maybe Tetris and game like it). Sorry, your definition of core RPC simply fails because of how the logic can be applied as there are many games that are populated with NPC that are not RPGs. The ones that have NPCs that actually INTERACT with the game instead of act more like a glorified vending machine are the determining factor here. Many games utilize NPCs as a means to navigate the interface in a more human way, but are little more than doorways to different areas. By your definition, that would qualify said game as an RPG but as we see, it is a necessary but not sufficient definition to adequately define the genre. All of the NPCs in Destiny could be replaced by vending machines and bulletin boards and we wouldn't even know the difference because the game would operate the same exact way. All the player characters that populate Destiny might as well not even be there because you cannot even interact with them (walk right through them for example) unless they're actually in your fireteam (unless you consider dancing, pointing and waving to be an actual interaction). That cannot possibly be all it takes to classify a game as an RPG, there [i]must[/i] be something more or the classification becomes way too broad (you may as well start saying every video game is an RPG). The additional criterion has to be that the NPCs have to be integral to the operation of the game (i.e. take them on missions or in some other way have them drive the game forward). We seem to be arguing at cross purposes here. This has become more of a philosophical/academic discussion that should probably be continued in a different thread. I'm simply saying that game devs claim to have incorporated RPG elements into their game in an effort to pull RPG fans into their customer base when in actuality the components of the game that are supposedly RPG elements are really too generic to be classified as definitive aspects to any one genre. It is, very simply, false advertisement and gullible people buy into it, hook, line and sinker.

you didnt read the part where i said a consistent world. it is also important to realize that the world is nonlinear and has minor decision making that is governed by NPCs or other players. You misread what i said completely. most games are not rpgs but incorporate features that we see a lot in modern RPGs

No, I read your entire post, twice to make sure I didn't miss anything, and I didn't misread anything. Ask yourself this: Why is Pluto no longer considered a planet? It's because our previous definition of what constitutes a planet was insufficient, and would have required that hundreds more planets get added to our solar system. Just as our definition of a planet was insufficient, so too is your definition of what constitutes aspects of RPGs. If most games incorporate certain features, then those features are features of games in general, and that is the reason we see them in modern RPGs. Not because they are inherent to RPGs, but because they are inherent to all. I take back what I said, we're not arguing at cross purposes, we have the same purpose. You're defining core characteristics, and I'm saying you're making too broad a stroke to adequately accomplish your task. You need to narrow your focus.

Yes i know... Destiny is not an RPG but has features seen in a lot of modern RPGs. It does however share the concept of a persistent world populated by other players and NPCs which is at the core of the RPG genre as it came out in the 1970s

We've already been here. And now I think we're done, as you seem to be interested in chasing your tail. [b]SPELLED OUT IN CRAYON[/b] All games, with only a few exceptions, have such features. Since all games have them, they are not feature inherent to any particular type, so cannot be classified as being any type of game's feature. It would be like saying opposable thumbs are an inherently human trait, and that apes and monkeys have human like characteristics. Instead we say that humans, monkeys and apes have [i]primate[/i] characteristics because that is actually the more accurate statement. Likewise, it is inaccurate to say that Destiny has RPG like elements as those elements are widely represented in almost every video game out there (even the ones that don't have RPG like features). Persistent world populated by players is more of an MMO feature, which no one is debating that Destiny has MMO features. NPCs? Well, I've already covered that and destiny has vending machines and message boards dressed up to [i]look[/i] like NPCs. Bungie and Activision misrepresented their product to sell more copies. Normally that is referred to as false advertising, but for some reason the equivocations have pulled peoples' attention away from that subject so it could be swept under the rug. Now, I'm officially ending this little debate as it seems to be quite pointless as well an being the wrong place to continue on such a line of thought. Mute.

yea i can see what your saying and I myself have said in other posts and to my friends that there should be more communication amongst random players in the destiny world. It is a criticism and despite that i know that my main raid group and PoE group that i have now, i found while messaging random people in the tower. The issue is that raids and endgame are generally a MMORPG type feature which is a genre that has not generally made an overly successful launch on console because consoles are bound by their own messaging systems. So in other words you can find groups by messaging random people in destiny but the xbox and ps4 messaging systems arent as great as a universal chat like in world of warcraft. the game should find a way around this. But you have to put this criticism in context. This game is on two different generations of consoles whereas it was initially being designed only for xbone and ps4. Bungie has said at their GDC conference that news that they had to dev the game for all 4 consoles led to a lot of reconfiguring in order to make the game accessible to these older consoles.