The problem I have is whether it is really warrented or not and the direct impact to PvE. To my knowledge there are no OP guns in PvE, especially in end game events. It took me a long time to find the Suros, it was the must have weapon for the raids. Now I won't pull it out of my vault, it has pretty much been rendered useless compared to other weapons I have. I will use Red Death or Vision of Confluence or any of my other raid weapons instead. I understand that some or should I say a lot of the complaints are directly driven by what Xur sells. There is also the time factor, the longer the game exists the more people will have Thorn. It's not that the gun is any better, it's just more common. When Red Death sold everyone said it broke PvP, same for TLW, Suros, Etc... Bungie will balance these for PvP if it's truely warrented, just like they did for Suros when it first sold and the Vex. But please leave the weapons for PvE alone.

When will it end ? If every week they nerf the gun you don't like

So you refuse to use it yourself to see that it's no so easy and that it in fact is skill because then you'd be using the same weapons as the other person? How can you understand that it's skill of you don't walk a mile in their shoes? Nerfing only ruins weapons. How about you go run around patrols and realize how your bitching for nerds ruined ARs or be a Blade dancer and realized again that cries for nerfing means that killing 6 or 7 enemies generates 3 orbs of light no matter what you're killing.

This is a very fair statement. I don't buy we need to nerf the guns being put up for this. This is my (I humbly believe) fair request before we do nerf. I want to see stats that a gun is op. Show me that regular Thorn/tlw/hawkmoon/vex users have more kills and a better kd than the population and I will agree. I get to the end game during crucible and I rarely see someone on there with eye popping stats. I think this is a fair request. I am asking for real proof. Right now we have anecdotal evidence.

I have yet to experience the same insta deaths against a thorn user that I used to experience against Suros users so I don't think it's OP. I get killed by snipers, shotguns, and supers more than I do by Thorn.

Nerfing should be stopped, because it is a never ending cycle. Each round of nerfs creates a new set of preferred weapons that will then generate more cries for nerfs..on..and ..on..and..on. Do you see my point? Instead of nerfing perfectly balanced weapons, Bungie needs to buff those that are too weak to be of any use....this is what will lvl the playing field so to speak. Bungie has proven incapable of separating PvP and PvE when nerfing which has ruined ARs already, we don't need more nerfs ruining other weapon classes as well. There are two problems surrounding this nerf issue. First, nerfists are so butthurt over weapons in PvP that they can't see the forest for the trees. Second, Bungie is far too concerned with crucibaby's demands for nerfs.

[quote]You can outgun this weapon. Therefore, it's not OP This is simply wrong on multiple levels. The first thing is that to truely outgun a weapon, you need to compare the weapon itself with the sane weapon class. Therefore mentionning "use a shotgun against thorn" isn't a solution since both weapon do not obey to the same laws. Second thing, this argument is simply not a proof of how a weapon is balanced compared to others. You can outgun a machine gun using MIDA. Is MIDA=Machine Gun? No. Therefore, outgunning someone is not an argument to defend the balance within the game.[/quote] This is wrong on so many levels. For example, no one with half a brain will tell you to use a shotty to nullify a Thorn. If you need a gun to "outgun" that hand cannon, it needs to be respective to the range the Thorn has - I use the Stranger's Rifle because it has a better RoF, and the damage output is competitive at distance (3 crits x 34 = 102 per burst. 2 Burst Crits = Dead Guardian). There are other guns that can "outgun" a Thorn (The Last Word, Three Little Words, most scouts, Evergreen II.I). [b]If there is an effective counter to the weapon, then by definition the gun is [u]not[/u] OP[/b]. That is all people are saying. Machine guns have a counter - it is called rockets. Snipers have a counter - it is called getting in their face. Shotty's have a counter - it is called getting outside their range. Everything has a counter. What nerf bunnies want is a one-gun-for-every-situation paradigm, and I am sorry , but that sounds boring as hell. If you are not smart enough, or willing enough, to learn about what guns can counteract others, and instead run to Bungie demanding that Gun X be nerfed so you never die from it again in PvP, then you have not only failed at understanding the concept of competition, but you have failed at understanding one of the fundamental principles of our reality: [b]ADAPTATION[/b].

Very well said. People refuse to acknowledge that some weapons are ruining weapon balance. Then they argue that you can't have different weapons yet all equally competitive. All available weapons should have strengths and weaknesses that are comparable to other weapons within their given class. There are trade offs. High RPM is combated with high damage output. Versatility is combated by specialization. The problem destiny faces is that weapon perks are fixed to a weapon and your character class and subclass have no means to counter overpowered abilities. For example, there is no perk or ability that can counter the Thorn's burn effect. The closest substitutes are the SUROS and Red Death. The SUROS is completely dependent on chance and is therefore unreliable and Red Death requires you to win the gunfight, which is no easy feat against a Thorn user. This is exacerbated by a permanent map that constantly broadcasts your location and severely hinders calculated map movement and spontaneity. I do believe, however, that weapon nerfs is not an adequate solution. The Crucible is simply far too imbalanced to correct without a complete overhaul to Character classes and subclasses, which would be detrimental to the overall game experience.

You're saying that if you use it, the variety will no longer exist. But if you nerf it, less variety will exist since people will move to the next OP gun and use less gun types overall. You nerf Hand cannons, people will stop using them just like auto-rifles and what we have remaining are Pulse and Scout Rifles. Nerf those 2 and we start the cycle again with weaker weapons. Nerfing is the laziest and idiotic way to balance a game. See why nerfing is bad?

[quote]Here is a list of arguments that I see plaguing the nerf posts by forumers who disagree about every single nerf: [b]You suck. Get better and stop crying crucibaby[/b] This is plainly an insult. It doesn't simply say i do not agree and why, it's just plain hate. These comments shouldn't be accepted since they are disrespectful, and do not bring the conversation to another level. I highly recommend to report these posts for offensive language and remove this plague.[/quote] Did you ever consider that your nerf posts are disrespectful of people who enjoy the game and the weapon they love? It's a forum and to be entitled to your opinion, others have to be entitled to think you're dumb. [quote][b]You can outgun this weapon. Therefore, it's not OP[/b] This is simply wrong on multiple levels. The first thing is that to truely outgun a weapon, you need to compare the weapon itself with the sane weapon class. Therefore mentionning "use a shotgun against thorn" isn't a solution since both weapon do not obey to the same laws.[/quote] I'm assuming you're saying here that hand cannons can only be compared to other hand cannons, etc. If that's the case, what's the point of having different weapons if you want them all to be the exact same? They all have pros and cons depending on your play style. Some high impact/low RoF. Some super stable, some ultra quick reload. Yadda yadda yadda. There are so many perk combinations, it's ridiculous and what works for you, someone else will hate. [quote]Second thing, this argument is simply not a proof of how a weapon is balanced compared to others. You can outgun a machine gun using MIDA. Is MIDA=Machine Gun? No. Therefore, outgunning someone is not an argument to defend the balance within the game.[/quote] I've never once seen anyone compare shotguns to Thorn or MIDA to machine guns. That said, primaries can compare to other primaries and there are weapons of every class that can beat any weapon you put against it. Vex? Beatable Thorn? Beatable Felwinter's? Beatable I used to destroy Vex users with Up for Anything. I win 90% of the head to head fights with Thorn users with my Coiled Hiss. Felwinter's is easy as hell to stop with a Fusion Rifle. I use Plug One and laugh when they come charging with one. If you think you can't stop another weapon, then you lost before you ever started. [quote][b]I am better than you at crucible, so I know more than you do.[/b] This is simply an argument of authority. How being better makes you someone who knows more about weapon balancing? It's interaction between weapons. Not between a good player vs. a bad player.[/quote] These arguments are dumb and lazy. [quote][b]Then how can I truely prove my point?[/b] This is the hardest part. Every opinion is based of experiences. Some do give you an idea of the current state of balance, others such as the very few written above, are simply not relevant in such discussions.[/quote] You could prove your point by using all the weapons that you complain about and showing factually that across the board they make you better. Unfortunately that is never going to happen because again, the handling of any weapon is going to suit some and turn off others. [quote]It's basically, imagine the same player with the same skill placed in various situations against himself with different guns. Example: Thorn Vs The last word. Which weapon would win in each and single situation. How easy is it tl use the weapon in a such situation? Is it reliable at all ranges? Does it have a great damage output? Is it easy to handle?[/quote] Again, this point only disproves what you're trying to say even more. "A player pitted against himself " So you're admitting it's the player and not the weapon. Joe Schmo using Red Death could kill Joe Schmo using 3 Little Words with Glass Half Full 15 times out of 20. But Joe Schmo using 3 Little Words with the 3rd Eye perk could kill Red Death Joe Schmo 15 out of 20 because he's more comfortable with the perk and feel. [quote]If i'm missing any, please let me know in the comments and I'll add them.[/quote] You're missing that the point of this game is to get great and powerful gear and that we are using our own gear in the Crucible. That may mean that sometimes you're outgunned. That's a shooter. Sometimes you have a better arsenal and sometimes you need to be the better strategist. The other thing that you aren't factoring in is that you can't discount special weapons, heavy weapons, grenades, abilities and supers. It doesn't matter what class you play, you have an incredible array of ways to compete and kill at your disposal. If something isn't working for you, try something else. The only way to get better at anything is to be challenged and all nerf posts are is people that can't face and back away from anything that might present one. You actually wrote that it's a problem when everyone uses one weapon, but you want every weapon to be the same. So which is it? And btw, I've played[b] a lot[/b] of PvP and I've killed people with and been killed by just about everything. I don't see all hand cannons in PvP. I don't see all shotguns. I never saw all Suros in the day. People use everything. I use Coiled Hiss right now. Last week was Abyss Defiant, the week before that Oversoul Edict, before that 123 Syzygy... I've used MIDA, Up for Anything, Vanquisher, B-Line, Another NitC, Suros, 3 Little Words, Husk of the Pit, the level 1 AR and on and on... And I've killed Thorn, Vex, Suros, TLW users with every single one of them. It's a game not real life. You don't get a cookie for winning or grounded for losing, so instead of worrying about what your opponent is using, why not try to dominate with what you have? Just a thought.

Here's the best argument against nerfing; all guns can't be equal. If they were, there would be no need for different guns. It would be the same gun with different skins. It wouldn't fool anyone, and all would know there truly was no variety. You can't have your cake and eat it. Either you want varying guns with different abilities or you don't. If you choose to accept this, then you know some guns will always be better. Always. The whole nerf culture runs counter to true competition. What do I mean? Simple. There is always someone better than you. Sometimes they have better skill, sometimes they have acquired better equipment. I'm a triathlete, and a pretty good one. I have a nice balanced skill set divided equally between swimming, biking, and running. I'm not the best at any, but I'm solid. The sport favors consistency, so I do well. That said, advantages can be bought. If someone wants to slap $10,000 into a bike, they can gain 2 mph advantage over me in the bike leg. In an Olympic distance event, this can be a significant and insurmountable advantage. If I bike 25 mph for my leg and that guy can do 27, that's around 4 minutes advantage on the run (all other things being equal). In a 10k run, I would have to be 20 seconds per mile faster at running to overtake and beat him. If he's good enough to bike 27, I likely won't be able to run fast enough to beat him. Now I could get upset and complain, but everyone in the sport knows this. You accept there are some you won't be able to beat. I won't lie, when I pass one of these guys, it feels really, really good. Other than that, I put it out of my head. I do the best I can and enjoy the rewards I get.

I hate the "get gud" or " you just suck" people. I've taken to checking stats, and those people are shit in crucible.

Good post.

Most of those arguments have also been used by the Nerfers. Here's my argument against all nerfs and buffs; Never expect the game to be tailored to you. Stop crying and learn how to play the damn game the way it is! I'm sick to death of whingers hitting a hurdle, and then wanting it removed rather than find a way to deal with it. I wonder how many Nerfers do Jiu Jitsu.

The thing is, if we keep nerfing shit ( like exotics ) because ppl don't like being killed constantly, and don't say that's not why because that is the leading reason for most of the nerfs. Then we shouldn't have exotic weapons. The suros acts like a damn legendary auto rifle thanks to all the nerfs. You nerf babies don't know how good you got it until you cry nerf and bam there goes another good weapon, not even thinking about pve when you want nerfs, or the safe word you guys use ( weapon balancing ). We need buffs damn it, buffs.

So ypu would prefer all weapons to perform and behave exactly the same?

Just nerf everything so we can all quit the damn game then.

I think a little unbalancing of weapons makes the game interesting after all in order to make the game perfectly balanced all of the weapons would feel exacly the same therefore making teirs of weapons redundant and uninteresting but some of the guns in destiny are way too powerfull in my opinion and also make for a stale pvp

OP does not not necessarily refer to as unbeatable. It refers to something powerful that one weapon can do but others cannot. In the case of the Thorn, we have one such example: the Mark of the Devourer. Without the Mark, the Thorn is solid, but unremarkable. Comparing the hand cannons, it shoots faster than Hawkmoon and more accurately than Last Word. Solid middle ground and nicely balanced. [i]The Mark however[/i] upends this balance, because it is so crippling with the ton of side effects that no other exotic perk has: [u]List of side-effects:[/u] - Heavily distorted vision effect. - Damage over time that deals almost a quarter of your health in total (5 ticks of 7 damage each to be exact) - Very mild, but still present flinch with each tick. - DoT effect prevents health from regenerating naturally until effect subsides. - DoT effect cancels triggered health regen (such as killing enemies with Red Death) You can add in that the Thorn is a postmortem machine as two headshot means doomed enemy as they will burn to death even if the Thorn user is killed. With this being said, the Mark had a ton of crippling side effects that no other exotic perk provides. Many exotic perks results in bonus damage or a combination of normal perks, but neither cripples the enemy if they fail to kill. And the Mark has no counter to it! If you are hit, you will burn for 35 damage. It doesn't matter if you take cover. Only counter is to avoid getting hit...and that is not a counter. In my opinion, the Thorn exotic perk Mark of the Devourer needs to be reworked. Not nerfed, reworked. Thorn needs to remain exotic, but the Mark is right now unbalanced.