Lots of nerf posts.... lots of hate for nerfers. [b]There are 2 schools of thought:[/b] 1) Everyone has access to the same stuff in Crucible... so whether something is OP or not, it is at least fair. 2) There are some things that are OP and balance is in order to ensure players have choices. I think the confusion between the 2 main camps is in the language / reasoning, not the stances themselves. [b]But first, some facts[/b]... if you disagree with any of this, then the debate is hopeless... and there is no point in reading further. 1) Some guns are clearly better than others (i.e. can kill people much more efficiently than others). 2) To achieve "balance", there should be no guns (or classes of guns) that are clearly better than others... there should be some sort of checks and balances, pros and cons, rock / paper / scissors, etc. There should be compelling reasons to choose 1 gun or gun class over another. [b]Secondly, some myths[/b].... if you believe any of these, then you have no idea what we are talking about and should read no further... and instead, just continue to spew baseless vomit all of these forums: 1) "Gun A isn't OP, I kill people using it all the time with Guns A, B, and C". When talking about balance, you must assume 2 people of equal skill and 2 people fighting in equal conditions. If Gun A has a DPS of 1000 and Gun B has a DPS of 800 and you have 2 people of equal skill... the person using Gun A will win a disproportionate amount of the engagements with person using Gun B. "Balance" means roughly 50/50. [b]Thirdly, the proof[/b] and basis of all this: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FDestinyTheGame%2Fcomments%2F2ugaok%2Findepth_weapons_sats_spreadsheet_for_pvpttk%2F&ei=sg1BVZSaMIeggwSpn4DYBg&usg=AFQjCNE2fU87YQsYaZOqErmw_l2vIJoazg&sig2=xSjy8YJyeUEU_dmmfCJq_Q&bvm=bv.91665533,d.eXY Stats and numbers don't lie... people and emotions do. [b]Finally, the argument and options.[/b] You can either nerf the over achieving guns to the levels of the under achieving ones... OR You can buff the underachieving ones to the levels of the over achieving ones. Those are the only 2 options if you want to have "balance". If anyone else knows a better option, I'm all ears. From those, I personally feel we should: [b]Nerf the over performers to the levels of the under performers.[/b] [b]Reasoning:[/b] The TTK in this game has evolved into something way too fast. I've attached a video of one such example, but these "near instant" death examples happen with The Last Word as well. Very skilled players are capable of killing people way too quickly with the set of OP guns we have. It is in the range of 0.5 to 0.7 seconds. 1/2 to 2/3rds of a single second. This leads to: 1) Discouragement of teamwork 2) Inability to counter or evade or avoid 3) Campy, tentative play - "He who shoots first.... wins". I'm almost 100% crucible. It is all I play. I've adapted to all the changes. [b]Nerfs are necessary sometimes. Having slower TTKs would be a good thing.[/b] [u][b]Here is my crack at a slight overhaul of the primary weapons... reducing all weapons to a TTK of 0.9 - 1.3 seconds:[/b][/u] [b]Class A[/b]: 0.9 - 1.0 TTK Hand Cannons (Short - Mid Range, good hip fire) Scout Rifles (Long Range, horrible hip fire) Potentially, these guns are the fastest killers, but they are not very forgiving and should require headshots to achieve the theoretical TTK. In general, these would be mediocre non-crit damage, extremely high crit damage, slow fire rates, and average reload speeds. Susceptible to flinch. Lots of recoil but predictable recoil. Clips big enough to kill ~3 +/- 1 targets. [b]Class B[/b] 1.0 - 1.1 TTK Pulse Rifles (Mid Range, average to poor hip fire) Good all-around weapon excelling at mid range and more forgiving than the Class A weapons. Average to fast reload speeds. Very resistant to flinch. Small amounts of predictable recoil. Clips big enough to kill ~4 +/-1 targets. [b]Class C[/b] 1.1 - 1.3 TTK (Short - Mid Range, average hip fire) Flexible cover fire weapon that excels at mid range but can be used in a pinch at short range. Move forgiving than the other weapons but has a slower theoretical TTK than the others as a result. However, the slower TTK is compensated somewhat also with a built-in bonus to flinch (on crits)... potentially disrupting other weapons (especially the Class A weapons). The recoil starts off small and increases to some max the longer the trigger is held down and the gun's recoil pattern is somewhat random. Slow reload speeds. Clips big enough to kill ~5 +/- 1 targets. [b]In General[/b] All weapons would have a greater penalty to damage beyond their intended range. i.e. Hand Cannons would be nearly useless at Scout Rifle range. [b]What does this achieve?[/b] - In the hands of the most skilled players (head shot machines), the Hand Cannon is still the best weapon. It can be countered, however, by a constant barrage of shots to the head from other guns. This is compensated somewhat by the HC users being able to jump around and still aim while jumping / moving. - Pulse rifles are the standard "battle rifle" gun. Very balanced, good mix of forgiveness while rewarding head shots. - Assault Rifles are a good cover fire gun. They have the slowest potential TTK, but for players who can reel in the recoil and land headshots occasionally and consistently, they can be used to disrupt other players a little to try and even the playing field. All in call, this puts MOST of the guns at around the 1.0 - 1.1 second TTK mark. This is up from the current 0.55 - 0.8 second TTK mark seen by the best weapons in the game. [b]A Note on Exotics[/b] - Exotics should NOT be the "most powerful" guns. You can't try to control abundance of power by rarity... sooner or later, everyone has the rarest guns. Instead, Exotics should add little unique twists to them that offer up a very particular build option, allow for teammates to combine exotics in such a way to offer new strategies, etc. Some Examples: - Remove the damage from Thorn's DoT. Instead, allow it to pierce overshields, titan bubbles, etc. Make it do 1 dmg to allow it to continue its role in preventing shield regen and to "tag" enemies. - Increase the flinch power of Hard Light - Increase hip fire accuracy of Monte Carlo and give all melee attacks a short DoT