These gun don't need nerfs, they just need a little rework to meet (but not exceed) their intended design. Edit: Not whinning, I do just fine in PvP. But I had a recent poll asking what exotics players use in PvP. 45% Thorn/TLW 17% Red Death/Bad Juju 12% Vex/Suros 11% Hawkmoon/Monte Carlo 15% Everything else We seriously need more diversity... Thorn - Reduce DoT damage to 5. Bullets refresh DoT. [i]Removes the quick two shot kill, but gives a higher damage output over time. If you do the math, it's still a two head shot kill, but not if the two shots are within one second of each other. If you land the second head shot after the second tick, it's still a two shot kill. Land another shot after the third tick, and you'll have dealt more damage than no refresh at 7 damage.[/i] TLW - Replace Perfect Balance with Flared Magwell. [i]Reduces the effective range of Fan Fire due to reduced stability, but improves capabilities against multiple opponents with quicker reloads. You'll get less kills at range, but more kills (and save a few deaths) against more than one opponent[/i] Thoughts?