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Edited by Retribution:
4/23/2015 7:53:44 AM
41
Destiny's Current Class Balance PvE & PvP (Updated*)
Alright so I'm expecting to cop some of flak for this, but I need to get these opinions out there. Before I continue however I must state that I have over 1000 hours playtime and have all three classes maxed out at 32. I enjoy having all three classes and want there to be legitimate reasons to want to play all three in both PvE and PvP. Please read all of it before you get out pitchforks as most classes have elements that need to be addressed.
Universal Change:
-Reduce the tracking/aim assist of Fusion, Flux and Magnetic grenades. The Lock-on of these grenades is a bit ridiculous and does not require much skill on the players part to stick their enemy. A slight reduction would bring these grenades into line instead of them being a point and pull grenade to win situation.
(Hunter PvE)
As is stands now the Hunter is arguably the weakest choice in PvE because it is has nothing to offer in terms of benefiting the team in a PvE scenario. Both their super abilities are mediocre(gunslinger) or sub-par (bladeancer) at best. The only team utility the Hunter has is in the potential to go invisible and revive fallen comrades or because of the recent raid they have become useful for running the sword. The Hunter's supers need a damage buff in PvE they currently don't do enough damage to really impact the situation and are really lackluster when compared to other supers. Also Orb generation for Hunter's using Arcblade is terrible in PvE and PvP they should generate one orb per kill up to 8 orbs like all other supers.
(Warlock PvE)
The Warlock in PvE is a very useful addition to any fireteam. Sunsinger can provide a safety-net in situations where a self-revive is required such as Nightfalls or Raids in order to prevent a wipe or to prevent being a player down. The Voidwalker subclass was fairly underwhelming until the recent addition of the Obsidian Mind and Bad JuJu buff. The turns the Voidwalker into essentially a mobile artillery. As a whole I think the Warlock is the best balanced to PvE currently with the new Obsidian Mind addition to the Voidwalker's arsenal.
(Titan PvE)
The Titan in PvE is probably arguably better or on par with the Warlock for PvE. This is because of the Defender subclass. The Defender is the only Super in the game that can be activated and used to work towards another super (exception being Obsidian Mind for Warlock). However the utility of the Defender shield is game changing for PvE. The ability boost everyone in your fireteams damage by 35% is ridiculously good. Also the defender has been highly utilized in both Atheon and the Crota Raid. The Striker subclass has some good utility with the flashbangs or lightning grenades however the Fist of Havok is very situational for whether or not the damage is worth the risk of jumping into the fray. I would like to see a bit of an increase to Fist of Havok damage in PvE to make that risk a little bit more worthwhile.
(Hunter PvP)
Now this is where I'm going to cop the flak. I'm going to come right out and say it: Arcblade is too good. This is coming from someone who has a Hunter and enjoys playing it. The problem with the Arcblade super is that it has too much going for it. It has a 50% damage reduction and high mobility from the hunter base trait. This can be coupled with blink which increases mobility even more. The duration of Arcblade should be reduced slightly so that they cannot travel as far while in Arcblade (making it require more skill on where and when to activate it). Golden Gun is fine in it's current state it has no damage reduction and requires more skill than Arcblade. However Golden Gun can lose their super during activation animation which can take a while. I have spent a lot more time thinking though the Arcblade issues and have determined that reducing the damage resistance would break the super with weapons like Felwinter's Lie available. Which leaves a reduction to the time Arcblade is active for as the only way to balance it. Like I said before I would take more skill on the player to get multi-kills, instead of being able to blink around the map for roughly 10 seconds killing people. Also as previously mentioned Arcblade has poor orb generation and should be one orb per kill up to 8 orbs.
(Warlock PvP)
The Warlock again similar to PvE is pretty well balanced for PvP as well. The Sunsinger's Super is extremely useful for those clutch scenarios when your killed off a point by a group of enemies and need to self-revive to save the point or if you die near a heavy ammo spawn. Radiant skin is a cool Skill that can be chosen to give damage resistance, however it must be selected unlike the Bladedancer's innate damage resistance. The thing with the Sunsinger's damage resistance is that they are not as mobile as the Bladedancer and can be put down easier. Voidwalker in PvP to me is pretty much taking a lot of good things and putting them together it has Blink and Nova Bomb. Nova Bomb is essentially a free control point clear & potential multi-kill. The key point here is that it Nova Bomb requires you to commit to your super and you can potentially get zero kills if your aim isn't true.
(Titan PvP)
The Titan in PvP has some things going for it but nothing too crazy that makes it stand out. The Striker has Lightning grenades which are quite powerful at clearing flags or locking down areas. Also the Striker has the infamous shoulder charge... Which in my honest opinion isn't as OP as people try to make it out to be. The shoulder charge relies on the element of surprise (not easy with everyone having a radar), if the enemy knows your coming your going to get buckshot to the face from their shotgun. Now on to their Super Fist of Havok, which can either be used very tactically or very 'panicky'. The biggest complaint about the Titan Super is the speed at which it can be triggered and the 'noobie' way it is used to kill one player. Now what people need to consider is that Fist of Havok is essentially a higher risk Nova Bomb that requires you to be at the point of impact. Also you are locked into the animation and can be shot at. If you miss with Fist of Havok similar to Nova Bomb you get no kills, however what's even worse is that you are stuck finishing the animation looking like a complete ass. This however is the trade-off for the speed that it triggers at.
The Defender currently functions fine in PvP many players opting to use Armor of Light and sit inside on a capture point with the shotgun at the ready. The Ward of Dawn can be easily countered with a Super or avoided by simply not entering the Ward. The Ward can also utilize Weapon or Blessing shields which can be useful when player with a party or coordinated team as it benefits everyone. The only issue currently with the Titan is there pitiful melee range, I'm talking about their standard melee ability not shoulder charge. The Warlocks melee has an extended 'push' range to it and the hunter has an auto-lunge if you will (this is even without the Blinkstrike). The titan however requires you to be right in whispering distance and has no range to it compared to the other two classes.
(Summary)
So in summary this is what I would like to see changed:
Universally: Reduce aim/assist or tracking of 'stickie grenades' being: Flux, Fusion and Magnetic. Add more skill to use them.
Hunters:
-PvE buff to Super Damage
-PvP nerf active Arcblade duration.
-Give Gunslinger a small window during 'Cast' of Golden Gun which can return their super if they die.
-Allow Arcblade to generate 1 orb per kill (up to 8 orbs)
Warlocks:
-Nothing needs to be changed. Bravo to the designers of the Warlock class. Although the fusion grenade aim assist will be a slight nerf I suppose :)
Titan:
-Increase the melee range. Make it more comparable to the other two classes. (This is the standard melee not Shoulder Charge)
-Increase Fist of Havok damage in PvE. Make the pay-off of jumping into the fray worth the risk.
**I was a bit to harsh on Bladedancer initially and with the addition of Felwinter's Lie a damage reduction would not be viable. I've since made a note of my experiences with Arcblade and vs Arcblade and deemed the only solution to balance the ability would be a reduction to duration. Which would make the player have to plan their attack better to obtain multi-kills similar to other classes.
(Comet DLC)
Now I really would like to see in the Comet DLC Bungie follow the pattern they have seemingly put in place or three types of Supers being Ranged, Close Quarters and Support. So in the Comet DLC I would really like to see the Hunter get a more support style Super that will benefit the team. The Warlock would get a close quarters super. Then finally the Titan would get some sort of ranged super ability. Another thing I would really like would be for the Titan to get Blink. It's not fair to the Titan's that Hunter's and Warlock's both have a class with Blink and they do not.
Anything that you think I missed I would love to hear about in the comments! Let's try and keep it civilized guardians we are all trying to make the game better for all classes not just your favourite one.
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1 ReplyGood post I really agree with nerfing the tracking on grenades. However the most overpowered class in pvp is obviously gunslinger. The golden gun simply got too much range. I dont think blademaster is a problem at all. Felwinter + melee to the face and gg.
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3 RepliesGood points overall, funny thing about most strikers don't know is you can close the distance with FoH by shoulder charging in first then let the super go, it's been pretty useful, besides so few Titans use tactic to increase the kill range of a FoH.
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Bump. The nade tracking nerf is the best idea. I feel like nade tracking is in the game so those with no actual skills can keep their "head above water" in pvp.
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3 RepliesGood points but ur blade dancers info is a little wrong they randomly roll what there damage reduction will be so far I've found it being in the range of 20%-90%. That's why some people see them tanking rockets and grenades and others one shooting them with a shotgun. As for damage reduction in general should be completely removed from all supers Actually strikers and void walkers should lose there supers if they die during animation or hunters should retain them its exteramly unfair that hunters who go gunslinger die during animation loses the super but titians that try to kill the whole team and die get to keep there's. Sunslinger are by far the wrost immune to damage as they raise can exploit the perk system to get 50% dam reduction and spam sticky Wolfpack grenades
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Very good points overall... I agree with everything but the TITAN melee/ blink being changed... For what a TITAN playstyle is (like a spartan) it's meant to run in and bash... Blink really wouldn't make sense... Plus that shoulder charge is quite useful in a lot of situations... I wouldn't mind if the shoulder charge could be used on both classes to make up for how cheesy blink can be at times.... The damage in PvE and PvP for blade dancer def. needs to be reversed
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It seems like they already nerfed blade dancer. I remember I could take 3 shotguns and now it can't take a shotgun and melee. They already fùćked us with pve don't let they do this in pvp.
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2 RepliesYup, good points up until the Hunter PvP comment. I literally stopped reading. If you think the Hunter's special is OP, you clearly haven't used it enough. You can get 3 hit by Thorn in Bladedance. That's a god damn fact.
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1 ReplyI dunno blink for titans? Eh...
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It would not make much sense to have Titans use blink, that's not their aims. Plus, they literally have the best jump in the game in my eyes. Jet packs for the win!!
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I believe the super damage should be increased for all of them in pve, possibly make them charge slower to offset the extra power but they are just underwhelming even nova bomb
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The tracking on the grenades just sends them orbiting towards your enemies: if they move, your grenade is pretty useless.
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10 RepliesI disagree with you at almost every point. I'm not being a troll, and since you went through the trouble of thinking this all out, I'm going to give you a well thought out, respectful answer. Starting with the grenades, I'm going to have to say that they still require skill. The hit box on them is a little larger, but if you're trying to hit a moving enemy that isn't running straight at you, you might miss, or they might be dumb enough to sit by you. Either way, wanting a nerf to a grenade is a little much. The game in either mode is a bit lackluster, and with all of the buffing and nerfing going on, I don't think many players will stick by until either the comet or D2. The hunter in PvE is incredible, but it takes skill. The golden gun can produce the same amount of orbs per super that a striker titan or the warlock in either subclass can (max being 9 per super, but that's only with things that allow you to "generate more orbs for your allies"). The damage they do is converted from one big blast to three smaller shots. On top of that, trip mine grenade is arguably the best Grenade in game. You also have to consider the smaller, less recognized perks, like scavanger, which reduces cooldowns for your melee and grenade damage each time you pick up ammo. Let's not forget about the chain of woe/gunslinger's trance combo which reduce reload speed and increase stability respectively, making red death and bad juju better than they already are. The bladedancer is INCREDIBLY good. From the invisibility to the health regen, to the insane speed and slide distance, to blink, this subclass is awesome to use in and out of PvP. In the nightfall, they are better to have around than a sun singer warlock because your character can still use their super and not have to worry about IF they die, because they normally won't. Bladedancer is the only class that does go invisible without outside influence, and it's the only class that can basically be unkillable if used correctly. There is no nerf or buff needed. Actually, maybe to the production of orbs upon kill for the bladedancer, but that's really it. No nerf to damage mitigation in pvp, because that's the only thing that makes it even close to worth using to keep it on par with the fist of invincible and the undying bomb. Moving finally onto the warlock. The warlock is balanced, but in a way that makes no sense at all. The nova bomb, and I've seen this happen multiple times, kills people before, during and after the nova bomb actually goes off. It's happened to my entire team several times with full green bars and no lag. There is next to no way to stop it, because even without the perks that make you tougher while you throw it, there is a HUGE damage reduction, and I normally die trying to kill a nova bomb user FROM BEHIND while they're using their nova bomb facing away from me. But that's not the entire subclass, although it should be, because the entire perk list aside from the jump is based solely off you having your super go off. It's nuts. While I love using it, I think that the sun singer is the weakest of the subclasses in terms of its super. Grenade spamming isn't really a great thing to do in pvp, but in PvE it's really you controlling the game. Radiant skin plus the flame shield from scorch is a god mode switch in pvp, which is what I will say is a little op, but no nerf required, as this is incredibly situational. The warlock class is balanced, but it doesn't make sense as to how, you know? It's a tank without actually being a tank, and I think it should have been a little different. I admit, I have no clue as to how it can be changed, but no buffing or nerfing. Now we move to titans. The striker titan is by far the easiest to use in either mode, simply because of its set ups. We're going to talk pvp first. The grenades are great. Flashback grenades halt people, lighting grenades are clearing tools, and pulse grenades suck ass because it's a two shot. the fist of havoc is literally the noobest thing to do, because it IS only used to kill one, maybe two people max in a clutch situation, unless the person using it isn't the type to beat their chest and think that death from above is actually use full. The shoulder charge is a ONE HIT KILL, and IT TRACKS with a VERY WIDE HIT BOX. In this, I have to strongly disagree. Shoulder charge, once you get used to it, is a team killer, since you can go shoulder charge into a room, taking out one guy, into storm grip over load, kill another guy, shotgun to the mouth, there goes a third, rinse, repeat. This is a simple, easy, and high powered tactic. On top of that, the fist of havoc has an insane range for what you're doing. Defender titans are good, but... better in PvE as people generally rely on them to one sword crota and to kill Atheon really fast. The ward of "you can't see shit" isn't common in the crucible, but it is annoying. The overs shield is actually pretty relevant. The grenades are a little lackluster, but that's fine I guess. In the overall, none of these subclasses need a buff or a nerf at all. They're devastating in their own rights, players just need two things; the skill to use them properly, and the skill to shut them down properly. I may not have all three fully leveled, but I've seen what all six subclasses can do, and I've used portions of all of their power, which is enough. You're entitled to your opinions, so I guess we'll agree to disagree, but, I mean, nerfing and buffing don't need to actually happen anymore.
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PvP <-------- Hunter ----------- Titan ---------- Warlock ---------> PvE My only 2 cents are that Bladedancer is almost useless when Lightswitch heroic modifier is on - hence the Hunter PvE difficulties - and that I believe the grenades that track are not all the same in their tracking ability (I think Magnetic has the greatest tracking "range" or impact on its ability to track, then the fusion and then the hunter one). I wouldn't change the grenades. Everything else though is pretty spot on.
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20 RepliesThis BS about "OP arc blade" again. Counter it with a FoH, Nova Bomb, Golden Gun or rockets. Running away in large maps helps too. If you hear an enemy gunslinger activate his super around the corner, are you just going to run there and die, and call it OP?
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14 RepliesBladedancers don't need another defense Nerf. One shotgun/sniper rifle headshot will kill them while they have full health. Its also almost impossible to hit any player in PvP with a rocket to the face. You are more than likely hitting the ground or a wall and missing. I do agree that the supers are pretty weak outside of low level enemies. I've only leveled voidwalker on my warlock, and I don't like it. I feel I die just as easily compared to my hunter, but with less mobility. Sunsingers I think are pretty good in both PvP and PvE. Defender titans I like in PvE, PvP they are kind of just more annoying than anything. Strikers are good for putting damage onto a high level enemy, but other than that I don't see much strength to them in PvE. PvP, if played right they can be much more effective than other classes. Especially the super and shoulder charge, if its being used.
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Well thought out and valid points made. I can't really argue any of these point and thought some of them in the past. Great post!
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Your Arc Blade Point Is Invalid. Arc blade Is A Super, Supers Are Not Supposed To Be Beaten.
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I agree with everything You've said. The one thing i would add is adjusting how orbs work in PvP or taking them out entirely. They are currently game breaking in PvP
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As is stands now the Hunter is arguably the weakest choice in PvE because it is has nothing to offer in terms of benefiting the team in a PvE scenario.... i have to disagree since the release of crota on hard .. Every fire team wants a warlock on their team for that raid
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4 RepliesI have heard many times that I can kill a Titan through his Fist of Havoc and yet it just never happens. Are they jumping out of my line of fire? Are there invincibility frames? The one thing I agree with is that most of the times it's used in a panicky way to kill a single player. When it does I'm quite pleased cause they deny themselves a multi kill. It's too fast, has an insane blast radius, and makes the Titan harder to kill. At least one of these has to go.
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Nice post! All of it makes sense!
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Titans shouldn't really get Blink, teleporting doesn't fit their style. Besides, I thought Hunters learned to Blink and use Ahamkara bones as a way to beat Warlocks at their own thing
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1 ReplyI agree with everything, except I would make a few changes to your math. Arcblade damage resistance down from 50% to 33%, simply because even at 50% they can be locked down and killed, and it puts you in danger by forcing you into close quarters combat with small chance for escape... so 25% would be too much and seem barely noticable. Gunslinger is a very viable spec in PVE, as it is a huge orb generator. You can spec to have it cooldown frequently and combined with 100% intellect you have it almost always ready, without the cost of making a warlock lose their self rez or a titan using the bubble just to get rid of it. I play hunter and I don't use gunslinger as a means for damage but I use it as a finisher so that I can be sure that I kill majors in 1 shot rather than trying to blast somebody, since you have to wait for the animation to end, and then for the screen to go back to first person, and then for you to ADS and shoot... you lose too much valuable DPS in the process. Maybe instead of making it have a long animation, make it instant so that it's more reactive based like "fist of panic" rather than anticipation based. That would fix the damage problem seeing as how you could use it in the middle of firing your current gun, so it would seamlessly be drawn and ready to fire. As for Titans getting blink, I don't think it fits Bungies "story" for them. They're heavy soldiers with big armor, blink doesnt seem like something they would do, since it's kind of a lightweight motion. Maybe if they had something different like a rocket boost similar to the lunging in halo 5, that would make more sense. And warlocks are fine. lol.
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I agree with everything said.
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