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3/6/2015 9:10:10 PM
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If you dedicated this much energy to learning how to [i]counter[/i] shotguns rather than [i]whining[/i] about them, you'd probably have more fun playing.
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Please tell me how to counter The Shotgun. Once you have, I will quote a section from the original post as to why you're wrong.
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You counter it with intelligence and [i]distance[/i]. You exploit its weaknesses instead of whining about how you can't overcome its strengths. Hell I found a way even to fight on [i]Anomaly[/i] and keep the shotgunners at bay.
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Edited by Elspeth: 3/6/2015 10:43:34 PMRight, I see you didn't read anything, so let me put it this way for you: Your crucible statistics put you in the bottom 16% of players. Mine put me substantially higher. This suggests I'm better at this than you are, including the bit about keeping shotgunners at bay.
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/6/2015 10:43:14 PMYet I'm not the one here complaining am I??? I'm not the one with my hat out begging for a nerf, am I?? Grow a spine whiny man.
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Edited by Elspeth: 3/6/2015 10:58:45 PMI don't think you understand how a forum specifically for feedback on balance works. I suggest you go read the original post.
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/6/2015 11:07:17 PMOh I understand perfectly. Which is your problem. Destiny's weapons aren't [i]supposed[/i] to be balanced in the way you want. It's [i]balanced[/i] in the way that each weapon is supposed to have a defined range where it either dominates or can compete on equal footing with any weapon. Outside that range it struggles. The goal of the game is to create [i]mismatches[/i] that favor you and the weapon you have equipped. It's a big game of Rock, Paper, Scissors....and your here complaining because the game won't let you scissors beat that rock... This is a game that [i]punishes[/i] you for tactical mistakes, not let you fight your way out of them. If you want that experience go play CoD or BF.
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Edited by Elspeth: 3/6/2015 11:24:06 PMSigh. Okay, I'm going to actually respond to this. Guy with shotgun not in small place, he use rifle. Is easy. No more disadvantage for other guy to advantage. Many small map with many small place, guy with shotgun moving very fast. Sometimes disappear, then reappear many closer. Sometimes like rocket on ground. Very fast. Guy with shotgun very healthy, can shoot many times, no die. Other guy cannot kill in time, even if distance 15 - 20 m. Guy with shotgun no disadvantage, but many advantage. He win no because good, he win because easy for him. This is problem, is no good.
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/6/2015 11:35:34 PMREAD MY LIPS.... BACK UP. The guy with the shotgun is [i]supposed[/i] to dominate CQB. If you insist upon wandering into a part of the map where you can either [i]stumble[/i] into a CQ engagement or have one [i]forced on you[/i] and you insist upon sticking with your primary you are either being [i]stupid[/i] or [i]stubborn[/i]. I faced the exact problem you're describing learning how to play Anomaly this past weekend. But instead of running to the forum and whining... I worked the problem and [i]adapted[/i]. I realized my primary simply wasn't competitive when I went into the center of that map. I also realized that my the shotgun I had to use for the bounty I was running wasn't either. Lacked the reach and rate of fire of the shotties others were equipped with So what I did was work the [i]edges [/i] of the the map with my primary and FR like a sniper would on a larger map. Result: I created the space I needed to fight with my weapons, and put the Shotgunners at a distance they couldn't cover without getting killed first. I also made sure to show up when they heavy ammo dropped. Problem solved. Not perfectly. But well enough. The issue here is Im willing to change my play style to fit the challenges the game presents. You want the game to change to fit you.
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Edited by Elspeth: 3/6/2015 11:54:42 PMMy KDR on Anomaly: Titan: 1.40 Hunter: 1.97 Warlock: 2.43 I can work Anomaly. I used to play fighting games. I know [url=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games#Footsies]footsies[/url]. Source: Destinytracker
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/6/2015 11:43:28 PMThen [i]use it [/i]. And stop whining. This is a tactical shooter not a twitch shooter.
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Evidence indicates I am [i]using it[/i] quite well. I want the game to fit me? Earlier, I said I snipe often and that some sniper rifles are too good. If I were truly motivated only by self gain, those are words that would never have been spoken. No, I want the game to be better. Are you afraid that if shotguns are balanced you will never be able to beat players like me?
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/6/2015 11:58:43 PMI don't like shotguns. I'm a mid-range fighter. So maps like Anomaly [i]frustrate[/i] me. Especially when the bounty I was running required me to fight with weapons I don't like, and weren't competitive on them. But instead of complaining I adapted. Unlike you I accept the game for what it is and how they want the weapon system to function. The problem isn't shotguns. Shotguns in every shooter are OHKs. The problem is the lack of variety and [i]verticality[/i] in the maps. You can nerf shotguns to death, but they'll still dominate [i]cramped[/i] maps like Anomaly and Burning Fields.....and Control on maps like Firebase Delphi and Blind Watch. Bungie needs to design more maps like Shores of Time and Rusted a Lands and and more vertical spaces in them. That way the maps support a wider variety of fighting styles. Rather than trying to make all the weapons competitive in tight spaces.
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Are you implying I haven't adapted to Anomaly? What KDR do I need to prove I've adapted to Anomaly? 3.0 KDR? Are you implying that just because it's always been done one way, we have to continue doing it the same way? Are you implying that just because everybody else jumped off a bridge, you should too? Are you implying shotguns are not effective outside of cramped areas? Because blink shotgun disagrees. Are you implying the maps have not already been funded, designed and made, or that Bungie will take them out of the game? It's too late to change maps. Clearly, the solution then is to change shotguns. And what did I say was the best way to change shotguns? To leave shotguns mostly alone, and focus on reducing player mobility when using a shotgun. Can only sprint at half speed. Jumping and sliding distance reduced by two thirds. Equip time of 1.5 s or severe spread penalty immediately following switch. Now, shotguns can only be used in CQC. Balance achieved.
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It not too late to change maps. Until they do all Bungie will do is keep shifting the problem around. Because their design style will keep dictating the style of combat... And giving a massive advantage to a particular set of weapons that all the nerfs and buffs in the world won't fix. Yes. Patch 1.1.1 stopped Exodus Blue from being a Fusion Rifle fest. But it just turned Firebase Delphi and Blind Watch into Shotgunners Paradises. ....and the next round will just shift the problem around even more. The only [i]permanent[/i] solution is for them to realize that map designs that worked for Halo aren't going to work for Destiny.
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The resources have already been spent. Bungie won't pull the maps. Bungie is following classic map design principles. Well defined lanes to encourage a high rate of encounters. Look at Asylum, Blind Watch and Burning Shrine. Three lanes, one with an upper and lower bit with connecting bits inbetween and at the ends. They're very similar maps. The problem is Bungie failed to take into account greater player mobility when they designed their maps. Thank you for becoming more rational with your responses.
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/7/2015 1:45:23 AM1. They don't have to pull any of the current maps. They just need to add a wider variety. 2. I don't care about the map principles. [i]They are too small, and have too few vertical levels.[/i]. That is what's causing the problems. Those principles aren't compatible with an unbalanced, rock/paper/scissors weapon system. Shores of Time? Basically one fighting level. Rusted Lands? Two. Blind Watch? Two and a half. In Titanfall you can find three or four fighting levels I a single building and the controls allow you to smoothly reach them all. That's why their unbalanced weapon system works. Because their map designs don't dictate how you have to fight. You chose the range by choosing where you want to fight [i]from.[/i] Very few of the maps in Destiny allow you to do this because they give you so few options.
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Increasing vertical levels in maps would potentially only cause more problems as a shotgunner would have more opportunities to just fly up out of nowhere and oneshot you as you are approaching a ledge. Shotguns themselves need to have expected TTK increased, or the player equipping a shotgun must be punished with limited mobility options. Have a shotgun out, well, now that ledge is entirely out of reach. You'll have to wait for the guy to come down. If he doesn't and you're in the open? He punishes the shit out of you.
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/9/2015 9:14:58 PM...and more opportunities for the mid-range fighter to ambush the shotgunner as he move around the map. Its a shooter. You are going to get shot and you are going to get killed. Especially when you make tactical blunders. The game doesn't always owe you a chance to recover from your mistakes or bad decisions. The shotgunner is already "punished" by the fact that his weapon has the shortest range of any in the game, and he has to find some way to get INSIDE the range of your weapon without getting killed. Which makes it a high-risk weapon. If he fnds a way to do so, he's earned his reward. I learn from the mistake and apply what I've learned to the next fight.
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Edited by Elspeth: 3/9/2015 10:23:27 PMSo you have a shotgun out 100% of the time during crucible? You never use your primary weapon? Because you have a primary weapon that you can use which negates any intended punishment. Yes, the whole point is to allow mid-range fighters to ambush players with shotguns out and kill the shit out of them. If you are moving around open ground with a shotgun, you have made a tactical error. You said yourself, if you make a tactical error you deserve to be punished. Right now, shotgunners are not being punished. And that's the kicker. You can correct that tactical error by having your choice of primary weapon out instead of your shotgun. Bungie has gone so far to protect the shotgun, they even took away the primary disadvantage of equipping a shotgun. In a reasonable situation, that would be the punchline. "Hey, Bob. That's a pretty powerful weapon you got there, but if you use it, you're going to have some pretty severe disadvantages." "No, John, lol, I still have my rifle. When my shotgun is weak, I'll use my rifle; when my rifle is weak, I'll use my shotgun. Lol, did you confuse this for a well-balanced game again?" Zero punishment.
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You do that with map design. Not by yanking the teeth of a class of weapons that you already have to be a unrealistically close distances to be effective. Bungies map are too small, flat and cramped for the kind of weapon system Destiny has.
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Edited by Elspeth: 3/10/2015 5:32:08 PMThe weapon itself is unchanged. CQC is untouched, you just can't force a player 30+ ft. out into CQC now. What's the problem?
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/10/2015 5:37:46 PMGo play Titanfall if you have access to an Xbox one or a PC. The issuse isn't about "forcing". Its about LETTING players seek out the kind of combat that FAVORS their own weapon. The maps people LIKE in Destiny (Rusted Lands, Shores of Time, Blind Watch to some degree) are the maps that are varied enough in their design that players can compete with a variety of different weapons. The maps people hate are the ones that are too small to allow this to easily occur. I don't have to "outclass" the shotgunner as he rounds the corner with my AR, if I can ambush him from a second story window that his shotgun can't reach. Or snipe him from accross the map from a rooftop.
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...the guy with the shotgun would shoot back at you with his other weapon... I am by no means advocating removal of Destiny's two primary weapon system, just pointing out that the intended weakness of the shotgun is diminished when you have another primary weapon.
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/10/2015 6:46:01 PMSo what if he switches weapons and shoots back? It IS a competitive shooter.... The point is that I'm forcing the action at the range I WANT, and under the conditions I WANT. So the encounter plays to my strengths...and not his. He's being forced to fight at mid-range, when he prefers CQC. So the odds go strongly in my favor. Forcing a mismatch doesn't mean that the other guy is helpless. It just means you've put him at a disadvantage, and (strongly) increase the odds of you winning the fight. You can make all the right decisions...and still LOSE if the execution is poor.
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So because a player prefers CQC they are automatically incapable at mid range or long range combat?
