I've got more of a problem with the people running fusions like primaries. I don't really have a problem beating out thorn, and that's with different exotic primaries. I use a thorn, but not nearly as much as my Hawkmoon. I find I get bested and best people with TLW, Vex, Suros, Thorn, and even Red Death. But that's just my opinion and everyone is different I guess. And yes I'm aware I'm only a slightly decent PVPER player.