There are no "default settings" in the engine. There are examples in beginner tutorials that no professional model designer would ever pay attention to. There are tons of other versions they can download if they feel like being lazy. Creating/Modifying models are [i]not[/i] a part of an engine's development kit. It's obvious you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. First you say this, then you start claiming that Halo 2 Vista dropped from the #1 spot on GFWL out of no where for no clear reason, then you claim Reach was "too balanced", then you say mouse versus controller is debatable for FPS games, then you say that Microsoft would have [i]liked[/i] to show that the 360 controller was proven inferior to the mouse. I hope you're trolling with this because you [i]have[/i] to be the ultimate example of ignorance on these forums. [Edited on 04.02.2012 8:15 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DusK [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Heed Then going back to the Halo Engine, for the game Stubbs the Zombie which used the Halo Engine, you could tell they re-used a lot of configurations from the Halo Engine when it was used in Halo 1. Not only were the death animations and physics the same, but you could tell the zombies were just re-textured flood with slightly modified animations. Yeah the engine was modified to be a bit more advanced than the original Halo Engine, however, you could still tell it's the Halo Engine. If the developers re-used Flood skeletal structures and basic designs, then why is it impossible that other developers did a similar thing with the Unreal Engine? [/quote] That's a bold claim. I'm sure you can provide examples. Well, go ahead.[/quote] If you've played Stubbs the Zombies before, you wouldn't question that statement. In interviews with developers, they were asked how they've used and improved on the engine. They said the changes they made were mainly with graphics and AI. They said what was included with the engine was already good enough to power their game. [url]http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/7627/Stubbs-the-Zombie-Interview/[/url] That means the developers used a lot of the "default" features of the Halo Engine when they developed Stubbs the Zombie. One such example is the death positions. In all the Halo games including Stubbs the Zombie, there is always a default death position that happens when ragdoll is not present for some reason. This usually happens after an explosion and the body will land and adjust into a standard position. This was the best example I could find on short notice: [url]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110119005016/halo/images/7/7c/Halo_3_grunt_death_position_Large.jpg[/url] It doesn't matter what character model dies, this death position will apply to any character model including the ones from Stubbs the Zombie. I like to call it the Halo 1 death position since it first appeared in halo 1. Since then, it appears in every Halo game including Halo: Reach. So that's an example of a similarity between all the games that use the Halo Engine. It's clearly a default setting and was not added in by design in every Halo game or Stubbs the Zombie. That death position also does not appear in games that do not use the Halo Engine, much like how the style of bulkiness in Unreal games do not appear in non-Unreal games. So while I may still be speculating about Unreal Engine, it's not totally farfetched that the developers decided to keep a lot of default settings in the engine. Otherwise, they might as well just start from scratch and create a brand new engine.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Heed Then going back to the Halo Engine, for the game Stubbs the Zombie which used the Halo Engine, you could tell they re-used a lot of configurations from the Halo Engine when it was used in Halo 1. Not only were the death animations and physics the same, but you could tell the zombies were just re-textured flood with slightly modified animations. Yeah the engine was modified to be a bit more advanced than the original Halo Engine, however, you could still tell it's the Halo Engine. If the developers re-used Flood skeletal structures and basic designs, then why is it impossible that other developers did a similar thing with the Unreal Engine? [/quote] That's a bold claim. I'm sure you can provide examples. Well, go ahead.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dr Syx My God you're persistent. Every single one of the characters that are bulky are meant to be bulky in the games you're listing. Developers hire people who do model work and they wouldn't pay them just to copy/paste models like this. In fact, those examples are set there in a download, not inside the actual development kit. It's not hard to create a skeletal structure and I've never seen [i]any[/i] game from a developer with one of these same assets. Anyone that knows the development of games knows that this isn't the case. These characters were [i]meant[/i] to be bulky and skeletal models are [i]not[/i] the fault of the engine. Definitely seeing as though they're developed outside of the engine. You can't even see reason in this. You're just too damned embarrassed to admit you were wrong about it. It's so bad I've even stopped laughing at it.[/quote] Then going back to the Halo Engine, for the game Stubbs the Zombie which used the Halo Engine, you could tell they re-used a lot of configurations from the Halo Engine when it was used in Halo 1. Not only were the death animations and physics the same, but you could tell the zombies were just re-textured flood with slightly modified animations. Yeah the engine was modified to be a bit more advanced than the original Halo Engine, however, you could still tell it's the Halo Engine. If the developers re-used Flood skeletal structures and basic designs, then why is it impossible that other developers did a similar thing with the Unreal Engine?

My God you're persistent. Every single one of the characters that are bulky are meant to be bulky in the games you're listing. Developers hire people who do model work and they wouldn't pay them just to copy/paste models like this. In fact, those examples are set there in a download, not inside the actual development kit. It's not hard to create a skeletal structure and I've never seen [i]any[/i] game from a developer with one of these same assets. Anyone that knows the development of games knows that this isn't the case. These characters were [i]meant[/i] to be bulky and skeletal models are [i]not[/i] the fault of the engine. Definitely seeing as though they're developed outside of the engine. You can't even see reason in this. You're just too damned embarrassed to admit you were wrong about it. It's so bad I've even stopped laughing at it.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Heed But developers can choose to use the examples included with the engine (default models) and all they'd have to do is add textures.[/quote] Uh, no, they can't. The engine itself can be used, but resources like UT3's models can't be just ripped from that game and put into a new commercial game without explicit permission from Epic Games. There's only one game where you'll find any of those sample models or a skeleton; UT3. Besides, as I said before, modders' version of the UE3DK =/= developer version of the UE3DK.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dr Syx Now, do those actually resemble anything that he's been talking about? No. They're just taken from Unreal Tournament 3. In fact, I'm willing to bet that it would be easier to start from scratch than to use this for a model that looks [i]completely[/i] different to this one. When someone creates a model for a game they go into 3ds Max/a modeling program of their choice and then important it. This has nothing to do with the actual engine. It doesn't matter what the skeletons in the examples are like.[/quote] But developers can choose to use the examples included with the engine (default models) and all they'd have to do is add textures. It'd save them a lot of time with having to create a whole new model and skeletal structure. Hence the prevelance of bulkier characters. What was in those screenshots is a bit bulkier than what I had in mind, but if you look at the basic skeletal structure underneath, you can start to see why it would cause bulkiness. I know for a fact that regardless of who uses the UDK, it will always come with some samples to help developers get started. You can choose to continue building off of those samples to save time, or you can disregard it and make your own. The reason why developers prefer to license a game engine instead of creating a brand new engine from scratch everytime they want to make a game, is because it saves them a lot of time and money. Therefore, that means the game engine already has the basics laid out. That's why there's consistency between games of the same engine. And therefore, brings up the possibility that bulky character models could be the default one. As for the concept art, yes, it could've been how they originally intended it to be. Or, because they've already used the engine so many times before that they've gotten used to working with the larger skeletal structure and thus their concept art reflects that. [Edited on 04.02.2012 12:07 PM PDT]

alrighty then.

Now, do those actually resemble anything that he's been talking about? No. They're just taken from Unreal Tournament 3. In fact, I'm willing to bet that it would be easier to start from scratch than to use this for a model that looks [i]completely[/i] different to this one. When someone creates a model for a game they go into 3ds Max/a modeling program of their choice and then important it. This has nothing to do with the actual engine. It doesn't matter what the skeletons in the examples are like. [Edited on 04.01.2012 10:27 PM PDT]

i dont know about any of this and only read this page, but it piqued my interest. [url]http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/UDKCustomCharacters.html[/url] provides skeletons, "Below are 4 different skeletons which can be used as guides or foundations for building your own characters for use in UDK: UT3_Male.max (3D Studio Max 9) UT3_Female.max (3D Studio Max 9) UT3_Krall.max (3D Studio Max 9) UT3_Corrupt.max (3D Studio Max 2009) " i'm not sure how much of a default it is, but this is the picture of the male one. [url]http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/rsrc/Three/UDKCustomCharactersCH/Male_Bones.jpg[/url] So i don't know if this post is useful in the least.

Not to mention there's no such thing as a "default model" when using the version of UE3 that game developers have access to, so Heed's argument was pretty much laughable from the start.

I just showed you concept art of all the bulky characters you were talking about before. That clearly shows they were originally intended to be like that and not the fault of the engine. You are incredibly hard headed...

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DusK [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dr Syx [url=http://www.giantbomb.com/mass-effect/61-16909/concept-art/52-100035/552990479_bd69b16e4b_b/51-418619/]Mass Effect 3[/url][/quote] Ugh, those salarians are clearly too bulky. Must be the engine.[/quote] Fine, the only way to settle this once and for all is for someone to get the UDK and take a look at what the default offerings are including the included samples. If the default models don't indicate any level of bulkiness and is pretty much the same as Halo Engine, IW 4.0, CryEngine 3, Frostbite 2, and so on, then I'll admit I was wrong. So if anyone can provide the necessary screenshots to show what the default character and skeletal models are like in the UDK, it would be much appreciated. Until then, I don't think either side is going to admit they were wrong yet.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dr Syx [url=http://www.giantbomb.com/mass-effect/61-16909/concept-art/52-100035/552990479_bd69b16e4b_b/51-418619/]Mass Effect 3[/url][/quote] Ugh, those salarians are clearly too bulky. Must be the engine.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Heed So is it really that farfetched for Unreal Engine games to share the same default bulky character model?[/quote]It is if you cite it as a negative towards the engine its self when it really has [i]nothing[/i] to do with the game's actual engine. You can't name seem to name a single example where it wouldn't make sense to have a bulky character. If you want proof, look for concept art for the characters you're claiming are bulky because of the engine. Here are some examples: [url=http://fusionfilter.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/73773_GearsOfWar3-CharacterConceptArt-07.jpg]Gears of War[/url] [url=http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/9544/935088-ut3concept_super.jpg]Unreal Tournament 3[/url] [url=http://www.giantbomb.com/mass-effect/61-16909/concept-art/52-100035/552990479_bd69b16e4b_b/51-418619/]Mass Effect 3[/url] (Even though most models/concept art pieces aren't bulky at all. Don't even know why you'd keep saying they are.) If they were like that in concept, it has nothing to do with the engine. There are more games on UE3 that don't have lots of bulky models than do have lots, the games that do have bulky character models were always meant to be bulky from concept, and there are so many games that use UE3 that I could make up [i]any[/i] argument about UE3 compared to the other engines using your logic. If you really want to continue with this discussion you obviously can't see reason what so ever. [Edited on 04.01.2012 9:27 PM PDT]

"Many developers" as in just the one you keep citing, apparently.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dr Syx You keep on saying you don't see those types of bulky characters in games outside the source engine then repeatedly refer to about 4 games from the UE3 engine. Let me show you why you don't find as many games with bulky characters in them: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Source_engine_games]List of Source Engine games[/url] (Dota 2, Dark Messiah, and Left 4 Dead have bulky models) [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryEngine]List of CryEngine games (Specifically 3)[/url] (Nexuiz has bulky models) [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games]List of Unreal Engine games[/url] Let's see... Hmmm... Why in the world would you end up finding 5 games with the same sort of "bulky" characters in it while you don't find it much for the other two engines? No idea... It wouldn't be about the massive amount of UE3 games, would it!?!? Using your logic I bet I could make a case about UE3 games having more examples of [i]anything[/i] compared to the other engines. Let's say for example... Fish. Apparently the source and Cryteck engines are terrible for creating fish with because I've played 4 games out of the [i]massive[/i] library of UE3 games with fish in game whereas I haven't seen many from the other engines' games. Here are some games without bulky models/with many models that aren't bulky on UE3: Mirror's Edge Mortal Kombat Tribes Ascend (Light classes look very thin) Tom Clancy games Homefront Borderlands/Borderlands 2 APB Reloaded Brothers in Arms games Alliance of Valiant Arms Infinity Blade/II Red Orchestra 2 TERA Those are just the games I know for a fact, too. Even in the games that do have a number of bulky characters, there are also characters that aren't bulky. Like I said, the females aren't bulky in the areas that aren't armored on Gears of War. Mass Effect's humans aren't bulky at all. As for the Army of Two stuff, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jQ7oh_cfNI]these models look bulky to you?[/url] They look no where near as bulky as you keep on saying. In fact, they look similar to [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNugWJG8qmo]Quake IV[/url] (on iD Tech 4) P.S. Lol at Army of Two being called anything near "realistic".[/quote] Maybe Unreal Engine is better suited for designing fish than CryEngine is. After all, a game engine provides you with a default set of tools to build your game. There's bound to be similarities between games that share the same game engine. With Need For Speed: The Run and Battlefield 3, it's very easy to tell that they both share the same Frostbite 2 engine. Going back to the Halo Engine, Halo 1 and Stubbs the Zombie share the same physics and death animations. So is it really that farfetched for Unreal Engine games to share the same default bulky character model? Like I said, it's the "default" model meaning game developers are free to change it if they want, but to save time, perhaps many developers just use the default models.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Heed If Gears of War was the ONLY Unreal Engine game with characters like this, then I'd agree it's just merely a design choice by the developers, but when several games from different developers with the same game engine show the same design, that implies that the engine has something do with it. When games of the same engine share some characteristics, those common characteristics are probably from the game engine.[/quote] It's like you're completely ignoring every single example we gave. Every single one.

You keep on saying you don't see those types of bulky characters in games outside UE3 then repeatedly refer to about 4 games from the UE3 engine. Let me show you why you don't find as many games with bulky characters in them: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Source_engine_games]List of Source Engine games[/url] (Dota 2, Dark Messiah, and Left 4 Dead have bulky models) [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryEngine]List of CryEngine games (Specifically 3)[/url] (Nexuiz has bulky models) [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games]List of Unreal Engine games[/url] Let's see... Hmmm... Why in the world would you end up finding 5 games with the same sort of "bulky" characters in it while you don't find it much for the other two engines? No idea... It wouldn't be about the massive amount of UE3 games, would it!?!? Using your logic I bet I could make a case about UE3 games having more examples of [i]anything[/i] compared to the other engines. Let's say for example... Fish. Apparently the source and Cryteck engines are terrible for creating fish with because I've played 4 games out of the [i]massive[/i] library of UE3 games with fish in game whereas I haven't seen many from the other engines' games. Here are some games without bulky models/with many models that aren't bulky on UE3: Mirror's Edge Mortal Kombat Tribes Ascend (Light classes look very thin) Tom Clancy games Homefront Borderlands/Borderlands 2 APB Reloaded Brothers in Arms games Alliance of Valiant Arms Infinity Blade/II Red Orchestra 2 TERA Those are just the games I know for a fact, too. Even in the games that do have a number of bulky characters, there are also characters that aren't bulky. Like I said, the females aren't bulky in the areas that aren't armored on Gears of War. Mass Effect's humans aren't bulky at all. As for the Army of Two stuff, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jQ7oh_cfNI]these models look bulky to you?[/url] They look no where near as bulky as you keep on saying. In fact, they look similar to [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNugWJG8qmo]Quake IV[/url] (on iD Tech 4) P.S. Lol at Army of Two being called anything near "realistic". [Edited on 04.01.2012 9:37 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dr Syx I'm sorry but name one character in any of the Unreal Engine games that has a bulky structure to them that's not meant to be like that. Dom and Cole both are meant to be over-muscular characters. That's the entire idea behind the male protagonists.[/quote] Well, let's take the game Army of Two as an example. The main characters in Army of Two have pretty much the same bulkiness and armor style as Gears of War and Unreal Tournament. However, Army of Two is set in modern times from 1993-2009. Therefore, it's meant to reflect a more realistic war scenario. However, in reality, we don't have giant meat tanks wearing armor that's about the same thickness of 2-3 people. Army of Two was intended to be a modern warfare game like Call of Duty. It does pretty good in terms of gameplay, but as it uses Unreal Engine, its character models are way bulkier than any real life infantry we have. The only time someone would wear bulky armor like that is if you're in bomb squad. However, we don't send bomb squad members on missions in the battlefield or undercover spec ops missions. So there you go, there's absolutely no reason a modern warfare shooter game would share the same armor style and bulkiness as Gears of War and Unreal Tournament. In pretty much every non-Unreal Game, the main male protagonists are not bulky. Master Chief is nowhere near as bulky as Gears of War characters despite all his Spartan II augmentations and armor. Alcatraz from Crysis 2, with his nanosuit, is not bulky either. And not a single character from the Call of Duty series is bulky. Characters in Counter Strike are not bulky, all Source Engine games don't have any bulky characters like what you see in Unreal games.

I'm sorry but name one character in any of the Unreal Engine games that has a bulky structure to them that's not meant to be like that. Dom and Cole both are meant to be over-muscular characters. That's the entire idea behind the male protagonists.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DusK [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Heed And a lot of characters, who don't wear armor, are unhumanly muscular. [/quote] Like Faith from Mirror's Edge? Yeah, what a beast, she weighs at least 90 pounds. clearly too big.[/quote] Or like Dom or Cole from Gears of War. Yeah they wears armor too, but their arms are usually exposed. And when you look at their arms, their biceps are unrealistically huge. They make pre-governer Arnold Schwarzeneggar look anerexic. Some characters from Unreal Tournament also display this characteristic. Not even the game UFC has characters that big. If Gears of War was the ONLY Unreal Engine game with characters like this, then I'd agree it's just merely a design choice by the developers, but when several games from different developers with the same game engine show the same design, that implies that the engine has something do with it. When games of the same engine share some characteristics, those common characteristics are probably from the game engine. For example, in all the Halo games, we know each game uses a Halo engine built off the previous one. In every Halo game including Halo: Reach and ODST, there is a default death position that can happen from falls. When the body hits the ground, it automatically adjusts into this same default position. You'd probably notice this more often in Halo 1, but it still happens in every subsequent Halo game. It even happens in the game Stubbs the Zombie which uses the Halo 1 Engine. I know for a fact that Game Engines usually come with default settings and samples. In this case, I know Unreal Engine has a default skeletal structure for character models. I'm sure game developers can modify this or create their owns, but for those who don't want to spend the extra time, they can just use the default model. I suspect this skeletal structure is what causes the prevelance of the larger than usual characters in Unreal Games.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Heed And a lot of characters, who don't wear armor, are unhumanly muscular. [/quote] Like Faith from Mirror's Edge? Yeah, what a beast, she weighs at least 90 pounds. clearly too big.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dr Syx [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Heed But why is the bulkiness consistent between these games? Why don't other games where such bulkiness would also be needed have the same style of bulkiness? This can only mean that the style of bulkiness these games use is affected by the game engine unless all these game studios are hiring the same artists for their games. [/quote]If a game's art style says that their character ought to be bulky, they are. Like we said before, for the most part Master Chief is a pretty bulky character in the Halo series. That's because he's that way by design. Inside the games you're calling out for having bulky characters there are other characters that [i]aren't[/i] bulky. For instance, the females in Gears aren't all that bulky compared to the men. Definitely on parts of the body where there is no armor. Also, the humans in ME3, as DusK pointed out, look like tooth picks.[/quote] Yeah I know that, but why is the style of bulkiness the same? Even if the character design called for bulky armor, why do a lot of Unreal games use the same style despite different artists? Why isn't Master Chief's armor the same style as Marcus Fenix, Garrus, those guys from Army of Two, and many other Unreal games? Why aren't the big juggernauts from Call of Duty the same bulky armor style as those Unreal Games? That's why I still believe the game engine played an important role in shaping those characters. Master Chief isn't that bulky compared to Marcus Fenix or Garrus. And a lot of characters, who don't wear armor, are unhumanly muscular.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Heed But why is the bulkiness consistent between these games? Why don't other games where such bulkiness would also be needed have the same style of bulkiness? This can only mean that the style of bulkiness these games use is affected by the game engine unless all these game studios are hiring the same artists for their games. [/quote] Dude, seriously. For every "bulky character'd" UE3 game you list, there's like 5 UE3 games with realistic character proportions. You're talking out your ass at this point. It's okay to admit you were wrong on the Internet. Nobody's gonna make fun of you. :)

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General Heed But why is the bulkiness consistent between these games? Why don't other games where such bulkiness would also be needed have the same style of bulkiness? This can only mean that the style of bulkiness these games use is affected by the game engine unless all these game studios are hiring the same artists for their games. [/quote]If a game's art style says that their character ought to be bulky, they are. Like we said before, for the most part Master Chief is a pretty bulky character in the Halo series. That's because he's that way by design. Inside the games you're calling out for having bulky characters there are other characters that [i]aren't[/i] bulky. For instance, the females in Gears aren't all that bulky compared to the men. Definitely on parts of the body where there is no armor. Also, the humans in ME3, as DusK pointed out, look like tooth picks.