Advanced weaponry...that isn't actually any better than modern weaponry. And they're up against FAR more firepower than they're able to stand up to.

If i remember correctly Fred in First strike mentioned they could do quite a bit of damage to the Forces on reach in a series of hit and run attacks but holding a postion against the sheer numbers the Foe had was near impossible, so i figure 8 Spartan II would be able to in a series of hit and run attacks take out 50 soliders with little problems.

Covenant forces? You mean the scarcely trained unggoy barely kept under control by bound-by-honor sangheili? Hit-an-run would be the best choice of warfare against an enemy with little training but massive numbers, so that makes sense. Modern soldiers or Halo marines could have done the same, just with less style. And off that first point, these are not unggoy and sangheili they're fighting. The unggoy aren't naywhere near as well-trained, and the sangheili nowhere near as flexible or adaptable.

You don't remember the scene where Master Chief, at 14 olds and only a little while after his augmentations, was able to kill/seriously injure a group of ODSTs (which are basically special forces soldiers) very easily?

In hand to hand combat and in an enclosed area, yes.

What about the scene with the Spartan instructors vs the 14 year old Spartans? The Spartans were said to be so efficient that their teamwork appeared telepathic to a regular soldier. Also, you're forgetting that the Spartans' augmentations just didn't affect them physically, Halsey wrote in her journal there was significant evidence of improved intelligence and creativity, tools which are very useful when fighting an opponent in open or closed arenas(and the Spartan IIs were already mentally superior before their augmentations, if you look at Halsey's evaluations of some SII candidates in her journal, you'll notice they scored [b]extremely[/b] high on intelligence testing). And you're also missing out on the fact that Chief Mendez remarked in Halo:Glasslands a Spartan II (or a Spartan III with the same genetic markers as a Spartan II candidate) was eventually able to have a reaction time 1400% of that of a regular soldier.

Yes, they have the advantage of superior teamwork. Still massively outnumbered and outgunned by an enemy not bound by honor and using similar tactics.

Are you missing the part when Master Chief took on around 50 ODSTs single handedly and a gunship? I just re read the definitive version of the Fall of Reach and I'm nearly 100 percent certain that it was 50 ODSTs he faced. Also, you're forgetting that ODSTs have much more advanced armor and training than todays special forces.

But can you [i]prove[/i] that? The ODSTs are cannon fodder with what looks like plastic over cloth bodysuits. Proof for "more advanced training"? The SAS and SEAL training is about as physically intense as it gets without dying from overexertion. The main impressive feat was the missile...which he only pulled off with Cortana's help.

You also have no clue about ODST armor. The reason they have visors and different armor than regular troopers is because they are dropped in HEV pods, it was said that if a normal UNSC marine tried doing that in his normal armor, he would probably die. Also, ODST armor is advanced enough that the Rookie could jump high off his pod onto the ground with only minimal damage.

No shit, I was being sarcastic about it being plastic over cloth. The Rookie could also shrug off plasma rounds and heal by standing still, so I'd say that was a gameplay mechanic and nothing more.

Then what was your point? If anything, it just shows that Master Chief took on 50 ODSTs, who have much better armor than today's spec ops. I don't see how that helps you.

Who says it's that much better than the suits (which don't look too different from modern armor) the regular UNSC uses? Aside from the kickass helmets, of course.

they may not be more flexible or adaptable, but they were much better armed.I did indeed mean the covenant forces.I have to ask though where it shows the Sangheili are not well trained as it is a warrior culture.

50 modern day special forces men/women are [u]well[/u] within 8 spartan II's range of being able to capably deal with the opposition. Spartans have, on multiple occasions, gone through situations that far outclass this scenario. Whether it be simply boarding and taking over a covenant ship with nothing more than a single spartan II and a handful of "marines", or going through waves upon waves of covenant on reach or onyx. Detonating damn near the entire covenant armada might be a noteworthy success too. Granted, some of these occasions were helped either by an AI, or shields coming in to save the day. However teh puma believes in comparison, 50 men/women in the modern day special forces oppose very little challenge. Taking away their armor entirely might make the situation a bit more fair. You have to remember, these are "students" that invaded entire marine camps to steal an objective, whilst being heavily out-manned, and outgunned, for simple drills/exercises. Hell, the marines got pissed off enough to the point that they'd switch to live ammunition since they had gotten so damn embarrassed from being humiliated every other day... they still got their asses beat. Honestly, if you're going to try and outdo a Spartan team with modern day tech., you might want to bring an aircraft carrier.

These aren't a bunch of untrained, semicoordinated Covenant, nor are they drill instructors. These are some of the -blam!-ing best-trained forces on Earth who FAR outnumber the Spartans and have comparable weaponry. The Spartans are faster and stronger, but there's no way in hell they're going to survive all of those bullets fired at them at once. [i]Especially[/i] not without shields. They would put a huge dent in Team 1's numbers, though.

You're imaging this out into some scenario as though the spartans would even allow themselves to be having "all of those bullets fired at them at once." Secondly, teh puma isn't suggesting that these people are DI'. He never suggested they were anything other than inferior to a team of spartans. Which they are. All 50 of them would be wiped out. Hell, teh puma would even wager someone like Fred or Kelly could simply jump in whatever room the enemy decided to hide in, and deal however many deathly blows were required within a short amount of time. "Oh but puma, what if there are simply too many people in there for them to deal with?" While that is fairly unlikely, grenades coupled with radar would render any strategy similar to that null. "Well what about all the special force's snipers?" A Spartan's reaction time is almost god like compared to even today's special forces. Teh puma only sees it as necessary to have 1 spartan with a sniper, but if it'd make anyone feel safer, you could make it 2. It might even be considered overkill at that point. Grenades? Shot down before they even reach maximum height. RPG's or anything similar? Shot down before they even make it halfway across the street. (We could even be generous and say it hits a spartan's building, and it'd have no effect at all on a spartan.) Some idiot in a gillie suit that thinks he's being a sneaky little bastard? Probably gets a knife thrown at him and dies before he sees it coming. Something else to consider is the small amount of room the 50 men/women have to deal with. The spartans in this case could probably start prancing around like Gazels and have nothing to worry about as far as spacial requirements go. Face it, the 50 modern day soldiers could surround these spartans full circle, and the spartans would still be cracking smiles since they could shoot in any direction and be certain to get multiple kills.

If the Spartans get surrounded they won't be getting any shots off seeing as how they'd be pasted almost instantly. They wouldn't be grinning and shooting at all the people around them, they'd be getting gunned down Saint Valentines Day Massacre-style. Unless the other side is moving at a dead sprint within spitting distance, the Spartans' motion trackers won't be picking up anything at all. The Spartan sniper would be shot as soon as they reveal their position by firing off their own shot. Grenades? They'd be too spread out for the explosives to take any significant number out. If the other side has rooms held and guarded, it'd be suicide for any number of Spartans to just charge right in "dealing deathblows".

[quote]If the Spartans get surrounded they won't be getting any shots off seeing as how they'd be pasted almost instantly. They wouldn't be grinning and shooting at all the people around them, they'd be getting gunned down Saint Valentines Day Massacre-style. [/quote] Seeing as how they'd be running too fast any sf soldier to reliably fire upon them, no they wouldn't be massacred. There are 8 targets running at speeds of 30+mph (and even faster provided if kelly is there,) along with the fact that those 8 are probably firing back (and typically with [b]much[/b] better accuracy) as well as finding cover elsewhere (depending on the situation/environment provided.). [quote]Unless the other side is moving at a dead sprint within spitting distance, the Spartans' motion trackers won't be picking up anything at all. [/quote] Hardly. The thing reaches up to 25 meters and is only typically subverted by other spartan's crouching, and moving relatively slowly. We should also probably be referring to this as a motion sensor, instead of a radar. [quote]The Spartan sniper would be shot as soon as they reveal their position by firing off their own shot. [/quote] Honestly teh puma doubts that quite a bit. The fact that the sniper rifles they have are seemingly unaffected by weather, their availability to set up shop is far vaster than the puny sf soldiers. Even if we were to assume their position had been compromised, the worse that would happen would probably be them gaining a new dent in their armor. If they did set up in a spot that was essentially a one stop, one shot type of deal, they'd be on their feet and moving before an enemy could even hit them. Again, their reaction time is far above that of any human being in the sf today. [quote]Grenades? They'd be too spread out for the explosives to take any significant number out.[/quote] Wasn't wagering that'd deal any significant damage, only that if the enemy decided the best course of action was to pile large amounts of resources and man power into a room, they'd be attempting a rather idiotic tactic. If you want to suggest that they'd be too spread out for a grenade to do any damage, it might be best to come out and describe the room, otherwise this piece of discussion is going nowhere. [quote]f the other side has rooms held and guarded, it'd be suicide for any number of Spartans to just charge right in "dealing deathblows".[/quote] That piece was actually more satirical than anything else, but thinking about it now... teh puma could see 8 spartans dealing with 50 of these dudes with nothing but their fists. Meatshields 'n whatnot.

[quote]Seeing as how they'd be running too fast any sf soldier to reliably fire upon them, no they wouldn't be massacred. There are 8 targets running at speeds of 30+mph (and even faster provided if kelly is there,) along with the fact that those 8 are probably firing back (and typically with [b]much[/b] better accuracy) as well as finding cover elsewhere (depending on the situation/environment provided.).[/quote] I doubt the Spartans could shoot that accurately if they're really moving that fast, and there would be so many bullets flying at them it wouldn't really matter how fast they're running. And it's not like the other side won't have cover of their own. [quote]Hardly. The thing reaches up to 25 meters and is only typically subverted by other spartan's crouching, and moving relatively slowly. We should also probably be referring to this as a motion sensor, instead of a radar.[/quote] If a brusque walk is slow enough that the trackers don't pick it up, Team 1 won't have an issue there. [quote]Honestly teh puma doubts that quite a bit. The fact that the sniper rifles they have are seemingly unaffected by weather, their availability to set up shop is far vaster than the puny sf soldiers. Even if we were to assume their position had been compromised, the worse that would happen would probably be them gaining a new dent in their armor. If they did set up in a spot that was essentially a one stop, one shot type of deal, they'd be on their feet and moving before an enemy could even hit them. Again, their reaction time is far above that of any human being in the sf today.[/quote] If a shot is fired they'll have half the other side firing in one huge wall toward wherever they were hiding. That's a hell of a lot of guns firing a hell of a lot of bullets. At that point, they can run all they want - they [i]will[/i] get hit a few times. [quote]Wasn't wagering that'd deal any significant damage, only that if the enemy decided the best course of action was to pile large amounts of resources and man power into a room, they'd be attempting a rather idiotic tactic. If you want to suggest that they'd be too spread out for a grenade to do any damage, it might be best to come out and describe the room, otherwise this piece of discussion is going nowhere.[/quote] I wasn't thinking of them being in any specific room in this scenario, only that they'd be spread out over the 2x2 blocks and not in a cluster waiting to get nuked. [quote]That piece was actually more satirical than anything else, but thinking about it now... teh puma could see 8 spartans dealing with 50 of these dudes with nothing but their fists. Meatshields 'n whatnot.[/quote] And then they most certainly [i]would[/i] get gunned down. Fast? Yeah. Fast enough to dodge a few thousand bullets after the initial shock of a bunch of giants jumping out and kung-fu fighting has worn off? Not at all.