Umm, Getting rid of ever verse would add gear. I would have a greater chance at exotic speeders, ghost shells, legendary ghost shells, exotic emotes, legendary emotes, skins for guns, and loads of other shit I didn’t have to buy. That damn store this ruined chances of actually getting these items without spending $8 or more to make my digital shit look different. At least last year I had a chance. This year is limited to season rewards (like 3) or my pocket book.

Eververse items would not be in the game without Eververse. How is that hard to understand?

Are telling me, in D1, the different speeders wouldn't be in the game because of Eververse in D2? HOw hArD iS IT tO UNdeRsTanD....

They’re saying that instead of the eververse, the items would be distributed through game activities and loot pools

Those items wouldn't be distributed throughout the world, they just wouldn't exist.

Bungie has already flat out said the design purpose behind Eververse was to serve as the cosmetics portion of the game. This is unlike a game like World of Warcraft, elder scrolls online, Warframe, etc. [u]To explain further:[/u] World of Warcraft is a subscription-based game so they do not heavily rely on an online store for cosmetics, 99.99% of cosmetics are earned in the game Elder scrolls online is a B2P MMO, so it does have a cosmetic store but most of the cosmetics players earn in the game through quests and activities. Warframe as a F2P does have a heavy cosmetic store, but there are systems in place that allow the players to earn those in the game without actually spending a cent. Bungie gives next to no cosmetic options and control outside of the Eververse. Ornaments are severely limited instead of based on existing armor sets. Ornaments, ghost shells, sparrows, ships, etc are are linked to one loot pool that you get at random drops which are attached to a real money store. Now it is normal for a F2P game to have that business model, like League of Legends, which is why Warframe is a notable exception. But a Subscription or B2P game (which has $20-$30 DLC/season pass on top of $30-$60 expansions) normally has cosmetic items like that available to earn in the game.

None of what you just said has anything to do with the fact that if Eververse didn't exist, neither would the items that come from it. If you want to complain about the business model, go nuts, more power to you. But regardless of what you think of it, the removal of Eververse would only lower the amount of loot you can get, not expand it.

Ok.... let’s take it REAL slow.. ok? In a Subscription or B2P video game; Normally the cosmetic items you see in the Eververse would just be in the game. That’s how cosmetic items in games normally work. So instead of being attached to a money store; things like vehicles, armor, companions, etc. would be things you earned or found as you played. Do you understand what I am saying? What people are saying; is that there are not enough cosmetics outside of the cosmetic store for players to earn and find. That they do not have enough control of their characters appearance, The kind of control that is standard for an online game that is centered around loot and gaining power. And it is not a matter of being broke, anyone with sensible common sense spending is not going to buy these things because they are overpriced for what they are. As I’ve said in the past the money store is not for the average person, it is targeting whales who have no problem wasting money and it targets a scarcity mentality of “I have to have it or I will never get it“.

[quote]Ok.... let’s take it REAL slow.. ok? In a Subscription or B2P video game; Normally the cosmetic items you see in the Eververse would just be in the game. That’s how cosmetic items in games normally work.[/quote] The cosmetics from Eververse are just in the game. You can earn a good portion of them without paying a dime. Outside of that, there are plenty of shaders, sparrows, armor sets, ghost shells, and ships that are earned outside of Eververse completely. The ONLY things exclusive to Eververse are emotes and ornaments, both of which can be earned without paying. There are things in the store that can only be bought with silver, yes, but that is normal for any game. The main argument here would be that the quality and or quantity of the non-EV items underperforms as compared to the the EV items, but the solution there would be to bring the quality and or quantity of those items up, not remove the Eververse ones. [quote]So instead of being attached to a money store; things like vehicles, armor, companions, etc. would be things you earned or found as you played. Do you understand what I am saying? [/quote] As I said, those things are already earned in game. [quote]What people are saying; is that there are not enough cosmetics outside of the cosmetic store for players to earn and find. That they do not have enough control of their characters appearance, The kind of control that is standard for an online game that is centered around loot and gaining power.[/quote] People might be saying that. Personally, I disagree, because every activity has its own armor set, most have ghosts, ships, and sparrows, and you can find shaders literally anywhere, but that doesn't matter. Even if it was a matter of fact that there aren't enough cosmetic items outside of EV, the solution to that [i]would still not be[/i] "remove Eververse." It would be to improve the game world loot drops. What you seem to think is that if next season, Eververse disappeared, that there would still be new ornaments, emotes, EV armor sets, and all that in the game world. That would not be the case. If Eververse stops, so does Eververse content. Now I'm not defending MTX because I'm a hardcore fan of Bungie, I'm defending it because it's benefitting me. I'm getting access to items that I can choose to pay for or not. It's an option. Even if I never even opened the store because I was dead set on never paying for anything from it, removing it would serve no purpose but to limit my options as far as customization goes. It would be nice if everything was free, but since there is logically no chance that that would ever happen, it doesn't bother me. Would I be interested in every armor piece becoming an ornament? Yeah. I'd love it. Every ornament becoming earned for completing a catalyst or masterworking the weapon? Sign me up. I'd also love to have the power to teleport and control time, but since that wasn't ever going to happen in the first place, and it has no chance of happening in the future, I'm not too bummed out about it.

Let’s run this again Instead of a randomized loot box that you obtain through gameplay that happens to be attached to a real money store; i.e. Engrams. Specific Cosmetic items would be rewards for specific Quests, Dungeons, Strikes, Raids, etc Instead of ornaments (gear cosmetics) being solely exclusive to Eververse; each armor style that players fully unlock would be an ornament that players could apply to any armor piece they wanted to at any time. something akin to a transmog system like we have seen in WoW and ESO. But Bungie doesn’t do that because they want to push for Eververse purchases. As a consequence you get more of a drip feed of cosmetic drops without pay. Making it an extremely time consuming because it depends on RNG. Or you can make it go faster with money. We have seen this we how the player does not obtain a Sparrow until beating the main quest. despite the fact that the maps are deliberately designed with a sparrow in mind. Otherwise they depend on eververse engrams to obtain them. This also puts Bungie in a position where they do not have to create specific content for specific rewards, and can just change the cosmetic loot pool every season. So in reality, there is subsequently less content due to the eververse loot pool. Because otherwise Bungie would’ve had to make substantially more content to disperse all of that loot in. If Bungie really wants to make Destiny an MMO (which they have officially said is their goal) then there is a certain standard and expectations that come along with that kind of game. A game that has $20-$30 season passes on top of $30-$60 expansions should not have a business practice akin to a free to play game like Fortnite. Because it discourages the developers from actually making meaningful and plentiful content. This is why World of Warcraft and Elder Scrolls Online are more successful than Destiny. 1: they make enough content to justify the price 2: they have enough cosmetic items in game that are not dependent on the real money store and give players a high degree of control of their characters appearance. [u]NOTE[/u] This was a concern back in 2017 when shaders became consumables https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2017/9/7/16268392/destiny-2-bungie-shader-revolt-controversy-microtransactions

[quote]Let’s run this again Instead of a randomized loot box that you obtain through gameplay that happens to be attached to a real money store; i.e. Engrams. Specific Cosmetic items would be rewards for specific Quests, Dungeons, Strikes, Raids, etc[/quote] Once again, this is already in the game. Some of my favorite ships happen to be ones from raids, such as the last wish one. [quote]Instead of ornaments (gear cosmetics) being solely exclusive to Eververse; each armor style that players fully unlock would be an ornament that players could apply to any armor piece they wanted to at any time. something akin to a transmog system like we have seen in WoW and ESO.[/quote] Like I said, as much as I agree that this would be nice, I understand that it would be unlikely to ever happen. At the end of the day though, if you really want to wear that armor so much, you can just go get that armor set. It isn't like the Eververse armor where getting it is relatively unlikely, most armor sets can be reliably grinded for. [quote]But Bungie doesn’t do that because they want to push for Eververse purchases. As a consequence you get more of a drip feed of cosmetic drops without pay. Making it an extremely time consuming because it depends on RNG. Or you can make it go faster with money.[/quote] Yes, this is their business model. It's a pretty common one as well. I don't see why Bungie is getting called out for it when a lot of companies have done this but way worse. Even in a game like Overwatch, where every cosmetic is available for free, your chances of getting what you want are low because they inflate the loot table with lower tier cosmetics and allow duplicates. At least with Bungie's model you can get what you want if it comes through the shop for bright dust. [quote]We have seen this we how the player does not obtain a Sparrow until beating the main quest. despite the fact that the maps are deliberately designed with a sparrow in mind. Otherwise they depend on eververse engrams to obtain them.[/quote] I don't know a single person who bought a sparrow from Eververse when first playing the game because they were too impatient to finish the campaign first. I think you're missing the mark a little bit with this point, but even if we entertain the thought that this is why you don't get a sparrow until after the campaign, it's not even a big deal. It's a business tactic. Just be smart about it. [quote]This also puts Bungie in a position where they do not have to create specific content for specific rewards, and can just change the cosmetic loot pool every season.[/quote] Well, yes, I'd imagine that they make specific rewards for specific content, not the other way around. If they needed to make content for each and every cosmetic piece they added to the game, we'd get a lot less stuff to work with. [quote]So in reality, there is subsequently less content due to the eververse loot pool. Because otherwise Bungie would’ve had to make substantially more content to disperse all of that loot in.[/quote] That is not how that works at all. Loot is made for content, content is not made for loot. Did you seriously think that they came up with Spare Rations before they thought about Gambit Prime? [quote]If Bungie really wants to make Destiny an MMO (which they have officially said is their goal) then there is a certain standard and expectations that come along with that kind of game.[/quote] There is no "standard" for what an MMO is. There aren't rules and regulations for how much loot goes into a game. [quote]A game that has $20-$30 season passes on top of $30-$60 expansions should not have a business practice akin to a free to play game like Fortnite. Because it discourages the developers from actually making meaningful and plentiful content.[/quote] At what point did you start thinking that you were paying $20-$30 for Eververse? You paid for the seasonal activities, not the cosmetic shop. Season of Undying would cost the exact same if Eververse wasn't in the game. You keep going on about how the developers are "being discouraged from making more content" when in reality they are being encouraged. You can have D2 exactly like it is, or you can have it exactly like it is, minus EV content. There is no magical future in which you get D2 with EV content but no EV. [quote]This is why World of Warcraft and Elder Scrolls Online are more successful than Destiny. 1: they make enough content to justify the price 2: they have enough cosmetic items in game that are not dependent on the real money store and give players a high degree of control of their characters appearance.[/quote] I'll take your word for it, seeing as I've never heard anyone talk about either of those games from the perspective of a player. I'm sure they're popular with their own crowds, but those people obviously do not overlap with the same people who play Destiny. [quote][u]NOTE[/u] This was a concern back in 2017 when shaders became consumables https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2017/9/7/16268392/destiny-2-bungie-shader-revolt-controversy-microtransactions[/quote] So? People complained about MTX. They do that literally anywhere.

It’s business that is resulting in bad design and wearing out goodwill A full price game that has customizable characters doesn’t exclude almost all cosmetic choices to an optional money store. You double down on the assumption that if eververse wasn’t in the game, then none of the items in eververse would be in the game. Luke Smith himself said; "We have made deliberate choices related to cosmetic items and not having them come from gameplay. Gameplay rewards are where you get items, power, mods, perk combinations, stats, triumphs, and titles." The store is not why any of those items are in the game. The Store is why those items are not distributed throughout the game. It’s why the players have extremely limited choices when it comes to gear cosmetics. It’s about creating limited options that push players in one direction. That’s why they made shaders a one time consumable. It’s why the ornaments are so limited. If the ever verse did indeed encourage the developers to create more content then there would be far more things to do, and destiny would overall be much bigger than it is. In fact we’ve seen them remove content like sparrow racing and the factions. Now they are talking about limited time content with the seasons in order to encourage an evolving world-but what is really happening is that they are trying to create scarcity in order to encourage the players to engage. Loot and gameplay go hand-in-hand. Players want more content to earn more loot, if players want more loot they have to play content. So if the developers wanna make more content they have to create more loot to go along with that content. The problem being they do not apply that philosophy for cosmetics. In a full priced game, even with a money store, Cosmetics were largely something that players earned in gameplay. The balance shifted from 80% gameplay & 20% store to the other way around. Now most cosmetic items connected to the store. This is a fine practice for a free to play game, because they need the money to fund the game. It is not OK for a B2P game to act like a F2P game. For what players are paying; Destiny should be a bigger game and have more content. Given the price tag of the game; what the developers are asking for a single emote, ornament, cosmetic, vehicle, etc. is ridiculous. I don’t think you know the player base that well if you are assuming that people who play MMO‘s don’t play this game. If they didn’t have any other game to compare to then there wouldn’t be these kinds of complaints then would there? Players have gotten more for their buck with other online games and other games in general. That’s why they made the base game free. Because they knew that they could use that as an excuse to up the prices in eververse. That’s why they now offer that silly level boost for $20. A Real Money store in an online game is fine as long as it is implemented properly. It’s fine as Long as it has a good business model that doesn’t hurt the game overall. That is not the case with Destiny. And you don’t have to take my word for it, Destiny has been struggling since day one. The truth is that in both games lifetimes, they never achieved the original vision that they promised back in 2013-2014. World of Warcraft, elder scrolls online, and Final fantasy online are not struggling because their vision and the game or largely the same. They have a good business model and are able to successfully produce content-both gameplay and cosmetic.

"It’s business that is resulting in bad design and wearing out goodwill A full price game that has customizable characters doesn’t exclude almost all cosmetic choices to an optional money store." Almost all isn't even close. Outside of Eververse, you have every armor set, every ghost shell, every sparrow, every shader, and every other cosmetic item with the exception of ornaments and emotes. You can get these from Crucible, Raids, Seasonal Activities, Holiday Events, Strikes, Nightfalls, Escalation Protocol, Gambit, Iron Banner, World Drops, Quests, and many other sources. Continuing to say that cosmetics are locked or restricted to Eververse is ridiculous. Stop. "You double down on the assumption that if eververse wasn’t in the game, then none of the items in eververse would be in the game. Luke Smith himself said; "We have made deliberate choices related to cosmetic items and not having them come from gameplay. Gameplay rewards are where you get items, power, mods, perk combinations, stats, triumphs, and titles." Despite this quote that you pulled from... somewhere... Cosmetic items remain to be perfectly earnable through gameplay. Stop with this absolutely baseless thought that cosmetics do not come from gameplay. It. Isn't. True. "The store is not why any of those items are in the game. The Store is why those items are not distributed throughout the game." The store is 100% why those items are in the game. The Eververse specific sets that you see would not be distributed out to Blind Well as a rare drop. They would not exist. The money that paid for those sets to be made came from Eververse. The absence of that source of revenue equates to the absence of that gear. It's the same as a certain department in a store. If the Men's XXL section gets removed, the Men's XXL clothing would no longer be ordered and stocked. It wouldn't be just moved to another section of the store. "It’s why the players have extremely limited choices when it comes to gear cosmetics. It’s about creating limited options that push players in one direction. That’s why they made shaders a one time consumable. It’s why the ornaments are so limited." Players have plenty of choices when it comes to the way their gear looks. They have literally every armor set in the game to choose from. The "Bungie limits the way I play/look" argument is the biggest fallacy since "git gud." How are you in any way limited to only using EV armor? Because it's an ornament? You don't have to put it on, ya know. Your biggest argument in that would be because Eververse stuff is easy to get whilst something like the EP set would take much more time to grind, and, well, yeah. Why would anyone pay for Eververse armor if you had to do an entire activity to claim it? Shaders being a one time consumable is... a terrible argument. Currently, you can get an unlimited supply of every shader you've already collected via the collections tab, (it costs a few legendary shards but who cares) so I don't know why you even bothered to bring that up. When you say ornaments are limited, I assume you mean armor ornaments are, and you'd be correct. They are indeed limited to Eververse. It's almost as if content from a purely cosmetic store that you pay for with real money should be worth buying over free content. If you walked into an ice cream shop and they gave you a whole scoop of ice cream as a sample, what would be the point in paying for anything? It shouldn't be a surprise to you that paid content > free content. "If the ever verse did indeed encourage the developers to create more content then there would be far more things to do, and destiny would overall be much bigger than it is. In fact we’ve seen them remove content like sparrow racing and the factions. Now they are talking about limited time content with the seasons in order to encourage an evolving world-but what is really happening is that they are trying to create scarcity in order to encourage the players to engage." Eververse promotes the creation of more cosmetic content. Not game content. With or without Eververse, the amount of activities would remain the same. And as for the whole "scarcity" thing you have going on there, I'll politely disagree but ask that you drop that because at no point does that relate to Eververse, and that's what I'm talking about here. "Loot and gameplay go hand-in-hand. Players want more content to earn more loot, if players want more loot they have to play content. So if the developers wanna make more content they have to create more loot to go along with that content. The problem being they do not apply that philosophy for cosmetics." I was going to point out that this is wrong, but you know what? It doesn't even matter. Because even if we pretend that that statement is true, your options are having the same content and the same loot, or the same content and less loot. The removal of Eververse won't add loot to the preexisting content, and it sure as hell will not add content to the game too. "In a full priced game, even with a money store, Cosmetics were largely something that players earned in gameplay. The balance shifted from 80% gameplay & 20% store to the other way around." What is the point of this sentence? You threw out some arbitrary statistics that don't apply to anything specific and said "it used to be more free but now it's less free." What game are you talking about? Or are you trying to say that every game falls into these stats? "In a full priced game." Which game? What genre? What price? Don't just make stuff up without even attempting to apply it to something. "Now most cosmetic items connected to the store." Not in this game. "This is a fine practice for a free to play game, because they need the money to fund the game. It is not OK for a B2P game to act like a F2P game." What are some specific characteristics of a F2P game that Destiny is mimicking? Besides, you know, being free to play. "For what players are paying; Destiny should be a bigger game and have more content." Really? $10 was too much for the entirety of Season of Opulence? "Given the price tag of the game; what the developers are asking for a single emote, ornament, cosmetic, vehicle, etc. is ridiculous." Then don't buy them. They weren't included with your purchase of Destiny 2. You don't see me buying a ticket to Six Flags and then demanding that they include food. "I don’t think you know the player base that well if you are assuming that people who play MMO‘s don’t play this game. If they didn’t have any other game to compare to then there wouldn’t be these kinds of complaints then would there?" I don't know where you've been man, but I've seen D2 compared to Borderlands, Anthem, and Division. That's it. I really don't see how WoW compares at all to an fps. "Players have gotten more for their buck with other online games and other games in general." That is completely dependent on personal opinion. I put about $100 into this game, more or less, and I don't regret any of it. Conversely, I put $56 into Fallout 76 only to play it twice. "That’s why they made the base game free. Because they knew that they could use that as an excuse to up the prices in eververse. That’s why they now offer that silly level boost for $20." They made the base game free to attract new players, not to make Eververse more expensive. I swear, every other thing Bungie does has to be a conspiracy theory about MTX nowadays. Luke Smith could ask for a tissue after sneezing and people would somehow link that to the ornament for Chaperone giving you .05 meters of extra range. "A Real Money store in an online game is fine as long as it is implemented properly." Duh. "It’s fine as Long as it has a good business model that doesn’t hurt the game overall. That is not the case with Destiny." That is the case with Destiny. "And you don’t have to take my word for it, Destiny has been struggling since day one. The truth is that in both games lifetimes, they never achieved the original vision that they promised back in 2013-2014. World of Warcraft, elder scrolls online, and Final fantasy online are not struggling because their vision and the game or largely the same. They have a good business model and are able to successfully produce content-both gameplay and cosmetic." Cool, 3 games that still have nothing to do with Destiny. Look man, if you hate the game, stop playing it. Every time someone brings up the whole "Destiny is struggling" thing I laugh. I don't care how dead you think the game is, or how dead you think it will be. I still log on to it every day or two and have a good night dicking around with my friends. You get so worked up over these stupid insignificant complaints and you spend more time doing that than actually playing the game. Why don't you join my fireteam someday, (leave the Eververse talk here) and we'll just have a good time playing the game we paid to enjoy.

Ok I have explained it over and over but you’re doubling down So here’s some links that basically lay out how obviously Eververse was poorly implemented & executed and affects the game overall. Because frankly I don’t have the time to keep on explaining it. Do what you will. Articles https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2019/08/14/the-future-of-destiny-2s-microtransactions-makes-me-sad/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2019/10/17/is-destiny-2s-eververse-broken-its-definitely-confusing-and-lately-misleading/amp/ https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/13/20804228/destiny-2-eververse-cosmetics-microtransactions-bright-dust-tess https://gamerant.com/destiny-2-needs-to-make-this-change-to-shaders-and-transmat-effects/amp/ https://www.pcgamesn.com/destiny-2/destiny-2-eververse-microtransactions-bright-engrams?amp Videos https://youtu.be/u4R5eQ1vQEY https://youtu.be/CMEF62m_WCM

So this is where you get your information? Sorry dude, but game journalists are the absolute worst at things like this. They exist solely to ramp up interest, and the most effective way of doing that is by causing outrage. Try thinking for yourself next time, not checking out what they have to say on the latest edition of Polygon. Remember, not once did you speak about your own personal experience today. You only spoke on what you thought was bad because others said it was.

I get my information by playing the game. It’s really not that hard to see or understand. I’ve already explained to you the problem I’ve just pointed out other people who also wrote about it because I didn’t feel like typing it out again for the 12th time. Also here’s another back in 2017 that said exactly what I’m saying now, and makes it very easy for you to understand. https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/12/09/the-math-behind-why-eververse-is-going-to-strangle-destiny-2-to-death/amp/ And here’s the best part, the community, back in 2015, warned about this when eververse became a thing. How about you actually read something instead of being petty.

Dude! It is amazing that you understand how "business" works. That's great. I'm so glad you took the time to write this.... oh no wait... nope nevermind. It's literally a video game and nobody cares. Pretty obvious that eververse os a bunch of overpriced crap. Maybe if everything was like... a dollar. People might be okay with that. But what is? Like 30 bucks for a set of cosmetic armor. Yeah no. Just stop.

Are you okay? Do you need some ADHD medication or something?

That checks out

What an intelligent comment that proves your mental superiority.

You are a fanboy