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11/25/2017 6:51:11 AM
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Weisnewski and The Interview
So the topic of the day is Crucible thanks to the Weisnewski appearance on Crucible radio. So with that in mind and all the dialogue it's sparked, I think it's a good time to really reflect on how we got to today.
Destiny 1 was a very different experience when it released than D2. It was a Bungie game, so we went in expecting top notch gun play but I know I was shocked when I loaded into my first Crucible match at level 5 or 6 and realized that I had the same green weapons I had equipped in PvE.
It was something so different from any other fps if played that I was genuinely stunned. My first thought was that I was going to be severely outgunned and maybe I should wait to try PVP until I had better weapons; but my second thought was "Holy shit, any great weapons I find in PvE, I can use here''
And I was hooked. I hit level 20 and got Suros and was having fun using it but then something happened here on these forums. People started bashing anyone who used Suros. It wasn't fair and had to be nerfed. It took all the fun out of the gun because no matter how well you played
[quote]you suck and just need that crutch[/quote]
So I switched to MIDA, doubled my kills per game and shook my head as the cries persisted.
[quote]Just call it Iron Suros[/quote]
Then TDB dropped and gave us truly great Pulse Rifles like Coiled Hiss (the OG Grasp). ARs like Up for Anything and Vanquisher VII. Scouts like B-Line Trauma.
HoW saw the disappointing AR nerf, but with reforging we had a golden age of overall balance. Already great Pulse Rifles got a 9% damage buff to weapons like Coiled Hiss and Hopscotch Pilgrim. Exotics were buffed across the board. Scouts could be rolled full auto. Hand Cannons were awesome. Fusion Rifles were the badass reliable weapons of Destruction we finally see again in D2. Shotguns were glorious. Truth, Gjally, Corrective Measure. Icebreaker. LDR 5001.
All balanced in an ecosystem with truly great abilities, supers and grenades.
Blink! Shoulder Charge! Flame Shields! Lightning Grenades! Fusion and Firebolts!
OHK weapons and abilities. DoTs. Rock, paper, scissors balance in a beautiful complex dance.
It was truly a golden age and everyone looks back and says D1 was so good, why can't we go back?
But it's ignoring that these forums that now ache for those days despised them at the time.
[quote]Thooooooooorn! It's not fair! It's op! It's a crutch![/quote]
[quote]Reforging sucks! Everyone just rolls Felwinters with shot package[/quote]
[quote]DoTs aren't fair! I have to leave the action to regain health![/quote]
[quote]Shoulder charge is op! It's not fair! It's free kills![/quote]
[quote]OMG Blink is bullshit! All anyone does is Blink+slide+shotgun![/quote]
And on. And on. And on.
So what happened?
Bungie didn't have the conviction to stand behind this unique experience they created and they read all the posts demanding change and they capitulated.
[b]Ecosystem[/b]
TTK saw the death of Thorn, Red Death, Full Auto Scouts and Reforging, which led to the rise of Nirwens Mercy, which led to the great Pulse Rifle nerf, which led to MIDA, which led to its nerf, which led to Snipers, then nerfed, shotguns again, nerfed, special ammo nerfed, heavy ammo nerfed, shoulder charge nerfed, blink nerfed, melee nerfed, and every single change to the ecosystem just threw it further out of whack and did it stop the complaints? Did it ease the call for nerfs?
Nope.
[quote]Abilities are op. PvP is just ability spam![/quote]
[quote]OHK grenades are bullshit![/quote]
It was so FUBAR, players actually begged for and got AN ARTIFACT nerfed. There was no going back and even if you suggested that HoW was the model, people still screamed about "Thorn" and "Reforging sucked!" as we were left with a game devoid of primary play and ammo for specials and heavy.
We got to D2 together. Bungie and the community and to anyone who says they don't listen, maybe we wouldn't have seen all the slow death of rotating metas if they just hadn't.
So here we are today and the talk is Weisnewski and The Interview.
And here's the funny thing. D2 had to change and as much as a lot of us would've liked year 1 crucible back, they weren't going back to that and they've been justified to a degree by the fact that we've already seen movements to nerf MIDA, Last Hope and Pulse Grenades and now players are asking for HCR to be nerfed because apparently a perk that every single player has access to is "unfair"
So we as a community can say all we want that we want random rolls or vanilla PvP back, but it's just not true. Players want to win and when they die, they want to feel it was something outside their control and not admit they maybe got outplayed, so they blame the gun. Blame the ability. Blame the team-shooting. Blame the connection.
And the truth of D2 PvP is that it's the closest to HoW this game has been since. It's the first time since before TTK where you can go into PvP and know EXACTLY how your gun is going to perform and not only do primaries matter, they each have their own unique personalities and feel that make finding THE ONE tantamount to the perfect reforge of old.
For the first time since HoW and the challenge of facing and beating opponents using Thorn, Red Death or TLW with a perfect scout, that feeling is back outgunning Uriel's, MIDA and Last Hope with Cuboid, Armillary, Martyr's Make, Origin Story...
And outside of Crucible it's the most diverse kill feeds I've ever seen in Destiny.
Mistakes were made. Many and horrible. Some things still need improved. Melee, grenades, abilities.
Some things still need to be answered for and changed like only 4v4 and random playlists. But we asked Bungie to communicate and whatever your opinion of Weisnewski and whether you agree or disagree with his views, he showed up and he was forthcoming and honest.
My reaction and feedback I gave is to not nerf HCR and if they're going to do anything, give more rock, paper, scissors counters. The game needs work. A lot more than it should, but D1 weapons and balance were a dumpster fire.
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49 RepliesEdited by TheShadow-cali: 11/27/2017 1:57:24 AMDude, you are trying too hard, this poor Bungie nonsense isn't working anymore. Especially when they, lie and pull cheap tactics about things like the link below. https://youtu.be/w7kgNExNiO4 Here is the OP before the beta came out fighting that the new system was a lot better then D1. https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/227364436?sort=0&page=0 [quote]The boss fights are dynamic and not D1 bullet sponges[/quote] Yeah, 2 weak primaries with no heavy ammo drops or no way to purchase heavy ammo. Endgame content is a lot worse then D1 and even running the nightfall... This game doesn't "need to be balanced" and it will Never be balanced. As soon as gamers get this "balance" Nonsense out of their head, especially (Bungie) the better off this game will be. You can not and will not ever be able to do this with a loot based system that allows everything into crucible with a PvE aspect of the game that the balance is adjusted across the entire board that is actually applied to everything that is adjusted. Especially with a sand box that thinks nerfing the most popular is called "balance" In order to do that with a game that has a huge PvE aspect of the game. Bungie would have to have set weapons like Halo. So, since Bungie and gamers that have this [b](illusion)[/b] that they can balance this game, they have destroyed the PvE aspect of the game for the sake of a dying PvP game mode. IMO The new loadouts do not work well at all in PvE and in PvP it will force gamers even more so then D1 to use the most popular weapons like Multi that was cried about already. Bungie needs to man up and Separate PvE from PvP and actually use their head instead of this childish game they are playing. Edit: Jon is the last person that will admit he doesn't know what to do...
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3 RepliesThe problem is that they listened to the wrong demographic. Not everyone asked for these changes, and as part of this community, I know I certainly never asked for a nerf. I argued pointlessly with community members and Bungie employees to no avail in attemps to prevent them. They should have stuck with the original destiny 1 experience.
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7 RepliesI don’t care if they talk. I don’t care if they don’t. They lie. Their words are meaningless. The lines have been drawn, and Bungie drew them. They set up the adversarial relationship we now have. Business interactions are based on good faith. Bungie has squandered any good faith with the community they had. This isn’t the first time they’ve been caught in a lie, and it won’t be the last. This is who they are. There is no spinning this. Their disdain and disregard is palpable.
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PvE needs to stop getting shafted for balance in PvP. The modes need to be seperated. But they won't admit it's a broken ideal to keep one system
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16 RepliesAnother big bla bla bla post we asked for this we needed this bla bla bla bungie are great. Just give it a rest honestly you just seem desperate and fyi nobody and I mean nobody agrees with what was said in interview.
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1 ReplyWhat we need is a god damn truth.
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9 RepliesEdited by Atomic: 11/26/2017 5:14:25 AMYou cannot say bungie listened to the community when they nerfed every weapon despite the 100 like separate PvE from PvP posts by rise of iron the complainers were in the minority and there were more anti nerf posts bungie did not listen to the people on the forum if you recall they listened to what was on their charts
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3 RepliesThe crying from players in D1 Crucible/Trials put us here. The absolutely hysterical part is the streamers who were most vocal are playing other games. Hell I just saw a post on Twitter about one streamer saying they were no longer ties down to Trials. So you bitch about what was a fun game so much its changed to what they wanted then blame the development. Freaking weak.. I said it in D1 Bungie should have put its foot down and just said play as is. This is why you never negotiate with kidnappers. So I blame the players on Twitch and the streamers for this mess.
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26 RepliesOr, they could just separate PvP and pve balance and be done with it
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crucible numbers are now as low as d1 year 3 at the end with an iron banner going on and trials. while the kill feed may be diverse the fun is gone. doesnt matter if its balanced if its not fun. if they had shown some courage in HoW and said nope this is it besides a few things being shaved down a bit we would have been fine. but now we have a situation where destiny's player base is quickly leaving. the pve is casual at best. the pvp is already being nicknamed team grab @ss. they have misjudged everything. I am not sure that what I have seen of osiris or seasons will be enough to bring people back. that last bungie stream best make a huge impact or this player base will dwindle even faster. I have already stopped playing and have gone elsewhere after my entire clan left. A friend of min has had to leave 2 clans as all players vanished from them and is now looking for a 3rd. if friendship is supposed to be end game then d2 has missed the boat on that too.
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TL - DR: pvp ruined Destiny.
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2 RepliesEdited by Kone19ps: 11/25/2017 2:45:24 PMGiving it a read but Recheck your timeline. The big AR nerf was in vanilla. I think everyone has a very skewed version of D1 especially year one in their heads now. It was not well balanced at any point.
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Edited by BigTexB007: 11/27/2017 2:20:44 AMI get the impression here you're blaming the community. Bungie should be competent enough to ignore the -blam!-tard shit feedback and move the needle in a positive direction. And do so consistently. At least 2 steps forward and at most 1 step back. In application, it's the other way around. Furthermore, it's worse than that. I also don't find any value in Weisnewski finally stepping out of his hole to answer some questions to address/answer/explain concerns after they've been beat to death for the past 2 months. And frankly his answers were so bad and tone death he should've just STFU. There is no value in what he did here. Effort is far too late, and the attempt is far too -blam!-ing stupid to hold an value. All he's done is give people another reason to be outraged.
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I miss my red death, shoulder charge, flame shield, throwing knives with a burn, no backup plans+universal remote, double grenades, Hawkmoon, and I could go on and on. But don't worry go buy some bright engrams maybe you'll get an exotic emote! SMH.
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Edited by Synge_X: 11/27/2017 3:50:15 AMWe could debate why Destiny two turned out way that it did in terms of multiplayer, one thing that we can both agree on though, is that people bitched and moaned about losing matches or gunfights, and continue to bitch about losing matches or gun fights. The only difference is, one perspective is accepted and the other is not... even though it’s all bitching and crying. It’s perfectly acceptable to enter a team-based game mode, and bitch that you were team shotted, and suggest that the entire game be changed so that you can ignore playing as a team, in a team-based mode... Than it is... ...to provide measured feedback concerning the fact that statistically, mathematically proven, over-powered guns will lead to a lack of diversity... not to say that every post concerning balance was at all measured, or reasonable in its delivery. Most of it was simply gear blaming or crying about a loss. However, that doesn’t mean that it was the reason I took issue with any particular Meta, and that is true for many of us. Lumping every body into a particular clique or group is a serious part of the problem on bnet(terms of the ability to deliver feedback). Personally, I wanted Bungie to get the fundamentals correct and balance each weapon archetype together at the core foundation, before expanding the multiplayer, and I feel that is exactly what they did in Destiny two. Is it perfect? Absolutely not, but it’s a step in the right direction and can be expanded on from here to provide different experiences for each different type player. The game as is, has room to balance up, rather than a continuous cycle of downward progression we experienced in Destiny one. Players can point out that there only a select few weapons in use right now but that is a moot point because that happens no matter if the game is balanced or not... At least at this point, there is an excellent weapon in each archetype or weapon class, As opposed to the statistically superior guns that existed in metas during Destiny one. I am an outlier, but I am very pleased with this iteration of the multiplayer... The difference is, after the hypocrites who complained that a significant portion of the community who wanted a more balanced game, ruined it, get the unbalanced game that allows them to ignore fundamentals in favor of power fantasy over others, they will shit on D2 just the same. Rinse and repeat... I asked for a more balanced game and got it, and I’m happy... The fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree If anyone thinks that this community will be happy with the same game that they shit on for over a year(vanilla Destiny), then they are sadly mistaken. People are doing the exact same shit that they did before(by crying nerf), it’s just a different group and different bitch... completely re-structuring the fundamental nature of the game to make it so that people don’t have to play as a team, is going to take away from significant development time that could be spent creating new and creative content. Hell, they could even use that time to create different modes of play so that PVP could be something for everybody. From the person who likes to have crazy, bonkers matches with overpowered weapons and abilities, to the person like myself who enjoys a good measured gameplay experience. Below is my suggestion: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/229864143?page=0&sort=0&showBanned=0&path=0 But that’s not what the community wants, the community at large doesn’t want to think that they are being relegated into the type of game that THEY want to play, they want everybody to be drug kicking and screaming into the version of the game that they enjoy, and be judged. But fear not kids, You will get the game you enjoy, as the rotating Meta Style takes very little thought or creativity in terms of deploying weapons and abilities into the game, as they don’t have to be balanced or taken into account. A perfect match made in heaven, an easy game for Bungie to make, and an easy game for most of you to play... along with an easy to identify community to bash, when they cry that the game lacks any sort of diversity. It is at this point, that the community completely ruins this game, that I will take my leave. Sincerely, Synge [spoiler] there you go Sols, I’ll take a little heat from you and be the bad guy[/spoiler]
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Edited by skAnarkist: 11/27/2017 12:40:21 AMHonestly I agreed with the thorn nerf, no gun should 2 tap consistently. Other than that the nerfs were bullshit
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27 RepliesEdited by RoseScythe: 11/26/2017 4:19:44 AMThat was a good read, OP. However, the fact that this thread has zero upvotes while the reskinned trollbait littering the trending page has upwards off 200 says everything you need to know about this forum. No one want to have a reasonable discussion, or even reflect on the part they played in the incremental dumbing down of this game. They just want to remain blissfully ignorant and scream into the echo chamber. It's a shame.
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Edited by VitreousSugar: 11/26/2017 8:43:05 PMI definitely fall into thee "buff everything else quit nerfing everything" camp as do most people i believe. Faster Stronger Better > slower weaker dumber just fix the lag and stop taking shit away only to force regrinding
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Tl;dr D2 sucks. and Bungie has an incompetent dev team, tell your friends.
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I didn't ever cry for nerfs during the D1 era. What I cried for was better rng lol. but seriously, The current flaws for PvP is two-fold: 1. Your point is correct: in order for PvP to be good, it needs: - better maps that allow for better movement in a team-shot game situation like we have today - radar lag is a problem and it is the one little big thing that allows flanks to happen at all - weapons need a robust mod system with specific mods per weapon archtype that also should have a con to using that what could be a nice mod...meaning when certain mod combinations are equipped that could create a somewhat unique weapon perk for an otherwise typical weapon - players need to get good...it's not the weapon. If you look at the Trials weapons use and win rate, its most likely that those players are real good. --> PvP needs dedicated servers --> Choice to enter whatever mode suits one's fancy or as another suggested in this forum many days ago, you can only enter quickplay if you run solo and in the sub-menu choose a PvP mode type, and teams can only queue up in Competitive and since there are two modes, who really cares which one...people do bitch a lot --> Ranking system which will help matchmaking
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1 ReplyI will continue to blame my connection in Crucible. Mainly because I know my connection and internet as a whole is just terrible. I will also gripe about people who use guns better than me. But I see them for what they are. Just because I suck with Riskrunner doesn't mean some people can't wreck with it. Nerfing something is never the answer unless it is blatantly overpowered. It's always better to buff other things up to that same level, as it promotes variety. I have my favorites. Sometimes they overlap with what's popular, but most of the time I'm just a scrub running around trying to have fun with what I like. On the topic of static rolls and the argument of Balance vs Grind, I recently thought of a possible compromise that plays off of the original promised usage of all the dupes we get. Every gun retains the default, or top perks they already have, maintaining individual personality, but all other perks on the gun are random rolled. You can also burn a dupe of the gun to reroll the random perks. It's just an idea, and honestly not a very good one, but it's better than sitting around whining and demanding Bungie magically 'fix' it . They came to this current Crucible formula based on feedback. If we propose ideas constructively instead of indulging in this special muffin 'Everything needs to be perfect according to my standards' mentality, we can all benefit from it.
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4 RepliesYa know, I have forgotten how fun Destiny was at the time you mentioned. In the beginning the game was actually masterfully balanced. Every class had op abilities and there were plenty of fun moments. One by one they have all been nerfed and we are left with a husk of a game we loved called D2.
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10 RepliesY1 crucible back? Which one? Vanilla? TDB? Or HoW? Because they were all not balanced one way or another. Fun? If you weren't on the receiving end, then yeah sure. Mythoclast and Suros dominated Vanilla. TDB I don't know, might've been balanced but I can't remember. HoW was easily the worst crucible ever. Exotic hand cannons. Shotguns. And final round snipers. Not to mention the unwavering power of the Ram and Sunsinger combination. I can't understand why PVP HoW was loved. The PVE was awesome, but dear lord PVP was hell.
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39 RepliesEdited by TheArtist: 11/25/2017 2:19:08 PMThis. This game is---in part---what this community made it with the unwillingness to let go of Halo, and the [i]constant[/i] gear blaming. We are now realizing that [i]balanced[/i] and [i]fun[/i] aren't necessarily the same things.
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It's maybes at best, and basically blaming the victim for the Devs heavy handedness.
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1 ReplyEdited by Orpheus49: 11/25/2017 5:01:07 PMIt wasent a dumpster fire, it was all the players performing great feats with the tools offered to them Genji in overwatch is increadibly difficulty to play, people still cry op and broken despite his very difficult play People who cried then are the same people crying now about mida, hcr, and autos. They listened to people who should honestly never even play the game if they can't handle being outplayed D2 is so far from house of wolves it's not even funny. Campy gameplay, no playstyles besides teamate hand holding, and uninspired tactics.
