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Edited by BoogerLover:
2/11/2016 7:25:04 AM
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Mystin,
First, I'm sorry you've been having a rough time in PVP with regards to SBMM.... It is so hard for me to read your post and not feel a wee bit contemptuous towards your plight. Stay with me though, because I'm going to stay on the high road with you while I attempt to offer a different view by way of a counter-point to your situation.
I've attempted to see your situation not through my eyes but rather truly understand through your perspective. However, let us consider all those potential players that you would be matched against if SBMM was turned off. I'll use myself for example...
I'm speaking as someone who is in the top 53% in terms of K/D with an overall score of 0.97. So mathematically, my PVP skill is representative to roughly half of the total community (as opposed to your being within the super minority of 1%).
1. Regarding your situation w/SBMM and attempting to casually PVP with your girlfriend. It appears that you are failing to have fun due to your OP competitive nature. For example, I recently did the "Refer-a-Friend" thing and brought my very young nephew into Destiny. As we were leveling up his shiny new Titan, we went into the Crucible to knock out a few bounties... At first we got killed.... a lot..... But thank goodness for SBMM because eventually (after Shaxx breaking up a lot of teams) we were able to get enough kills to satisfy the bounties we were after. I had a great time because the whole point was to play with my nephew and eventually we could win a few. As a side note, SBMM prevented me from effectively "carrying" which many of us find annoying (when 1 or 2 players can carry an entire fire team and almost single-handedly wipe out the opposing team).
2. The fact that you felt the need to "create" a new account just to test out the "new changes," indicates to me that you don't want that precious K/D of yours to suffer while you "casual" it up and "have fun." Or, you miss a good ole Pub Stomp that SBMM has been denying you... Either way, looking at this in the most favorable light, I'm still coming up with the perspective that you just can't help yourself and continue to fail at the "fun" part. In other words, nobody but an uber OP competitive try hard would even consider what you did;"create a new account just to test out the new changes." Listen Bro, if you want to have fun, just let it go man.... Just take an "I don't care about my K/D (winning)" attitude and go uber casual mode. If you're not truly afflicted and can shake this OP competitive condition, you'll actually have fun.... :D
3. By the way you started this conversation, I infer that your K/D is important to you and in fact, a point of pride. Further, as you roll out your "competitive" resume (12 years worth apparently) in your appeal for SBMM to "be an optional experience," I couldn't help but get the notion that you simply don't know how to be non-competitive. I think a more honest way to define your position is that you want to win without having to try "sooooo hard." Truthfully, if you spend the better part of a weekend nerfing your K/D into oblivion than you'll start being matched against lesser skilled opponents like me. But the jeopardy there is that as soon as you start casually stomping us into the ground you'll be back to square one.
4. SBMM is a great concept for the majority of players out there. Is it flawed, yes. The lag is a big problem. However, with the potential of the new "damage referee" coupled with SBMM has potential to move us closer to that sweet spot that benefits the community (writ large vice you 1 percenters).
I know this isn't what you probably wanted to hear but if you could afford to look beyond your 1% and consider Bungie's attempt to accommodate the greater majority you could be more understanding of their intentions with SBMM. If you really care about creating a fun PVP experience with your girlfriend and value that over your K/D, you'll find the solution was in front of you this whole time. :D
Just have fun like I did playing with my nephew! After all, isn't that the whole point?
English
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While I appreciate the wording and points within your post, please from a fellow PVP 1% - This is not about K/D, this is about our ability to enjoy what is largely a social game with our friends, yes I am personally competitive but also like to relax and jam with some of my not so sweaty friends, this isn't currently possible (why?) - In a peer to peer based game on console, SBMM has no place over best connection matching, it just doesn't for more reasons than I can possible list. The most significant is when its implemented in countries with small player numbers (like New Zealand) which means we almost always get matched offshore, lag and get bombarded with hate and cheating messages, or just have a woeful time - SBMM removes the variety in load outs and class setups in PVP, purely out of necessity, in my opinion this isn't good for the game - SILO'ing players in a social game also isn't good for its long term survival, definitely in my case its seen the player base drop significantly A few small things would fix this. - Make trials a permanent playlist always available, enforce SBMM, the sweaties will flock here - All private matches, hugely competitive players will flock here as will casuals just wanting to have fun with friends - 1 SBMM based playlist which is a mix of all gametypes, want to sweat it out in 6v6 mode, flock here
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Edited by BoogerLover: 2/12/2016 8:02:31 AMYes, As I've said earlier, I'm truly sorry for your situation as there isn't a viable solution here. Unfortunately, I know good people in both New Zealand and Australia that are habitual laggers. This isn't just PVP by the way. I remember watching both Crota and now Oryx glitch out because of their lag.... Can't tell you how many times the raid team wiped just because of this... As you stated, a low population density within these respective areas coupled with SBMM has made the game more difficult for you. Damage Referee is assured to even worsen this already horrible experience for you... Unfortunately, even if we went to "custom games" and given the lack of population that would likely still be an issue, most gamers would still most likely not choose to play willingly with lag. In your particular situation, somebody will undoubtedly be forced to deal with lag... Dedicated servers would appear to be a solution but there would still be lag/latency issues criss-crossing the globe on connections. If we could fantasize a more perfect solution we would miracle more players within your skill zone just down the street from you.
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On the part of getting blamed for cheating or lag switching, its true. Sometimes having a bad connection is really bad for your gameplay when people teleport away from your shots, or you kill someone and it takes 2 seconds to register, or in severe cases, you continually lag out... I just want everyone to know that having a bad connection isnt always beneficial for the person who has it, and not everyone has the ability to easily fix it
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Absolutely true, and despite popular opinion the case most of the time
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Edited by BoogerLover: 2/11/2016 10:15:41 PMOkay my Kiwi friend, I want to get this out of the way first.... I'm so sorry for what's potentially just around the corner for you if it "takes off." If the "damage referee" (coupled with SBMM) takes full effect across PVP playlists, it will most likely be very, very unkind to you. And now for the rest.... I want to give you a parallel anecdote. I'm gonna attempt to parallel this snippet quoted from your post above: "This is not about K/D, this is about our ability to enjoy what is largely a social game with our friends, yes I am personally competitive but also like to relax and jam with some of my not so sweaty friends, this isn't currently possible." This isn't about the fact that I've studied Jujitsu for over 20 years, this is about my ability to socially practice Jujitsu with my 7 year old son who has been practicing for 1 year. Yes, I am personally competitive but also, I like to relax and jam with my not so sweaty son, however, this isn't currently possible." LOL, get the crap out of here Bro! You've just made a case to me that you don't know how to play casually, not that it ISN'T possible to play casually. That's like saying I can't interact with a lesser skilled out matched person without going 100%. Dude, pick an event, any event.... I dunno sports, cooking, throwing darts.... a friggin spelling contest. It is always possible to play "down" your skill level. However, the reverse isn't true. An approach to Load outs is a combination of weapons balancing and power factor. Take regular crucible for example.... If power mattered here, you'd see a drastic reduction with Thorn, Ice Breaker, etc.... But, how do we do that without penalizing those who have suffered greatly under RNG....? Custom matches. Many, many, many players here across the entire spectrum of skill will celebrate the day that "damage referee" penalizes habitual laggers. Good luck Bro!
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I think you misunderstand the whole "lowering your own ability to remain social" issue here. It's not that he must lower his ability to play with friends. The problem here is that his friends must adapt to the forced higher skill matches he drags them into. This is the same case with the OP. Simply lowering your own stats to attempt to remain on par with friends is no solution unless you entirely give up on remaining competitive. You can't be an entirely competitive AND social player under SBMM and that's the issue. Something has to give.
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Yeah Dude, okay: "You can't be an entirely competitive AND social player under SBMM and that's the issue. Something has to give." ^^^^This is what I"ve been saying too! We agree. So guess what! If you're a try hard, competitive player, you most likely won't grasp the concept. But, if you value being social then (although not a perfect solution but arguably better than just whining about it and feeling sorry for your K/D), it's an option to just come down in stats to a level where friends can join in without getting murdered. One of my friends does that with me. We lose matches together until we start winning.... Doesn't take a lot maybe after 3 losses we win. Now, I know some competitive people who don't get it will argue, "losing is no fun man..." Dude, I'm being social, I'm interacting with my friend and at this point the game is just a gap filler to have something entertaining to do together."
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That's a good point. I had no idea the matches would balance out so quickly.
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Edited by BoogerLover: 2/12/2016 8:18:01 AMIt can vary depending on how "wide" the difference is per fire team make-up... Based on feedback here it seems that the scaling increments are rather unforgiving near the top.... Additionally, I've been known for saying to my "higher skilled" friend: "Dude, don't kill them, just let them mercy us." This effectively ends the pain and suffering quicker (hence, "the mercy rule."), and Shaxx breaks up the teams and the skill/stat lowering seems more severe as the next lobby is way more manageable. However, at times I've got to keep a leash on my buddy as he perceives the damn "buffet" is open and proceeds to go full-slayer-mode. It may be the case that the top 1-8% range are grouped together.... Or they are just better at vocalizing their grief...
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You understand that SBMM in a P2P game is the root cause for the lag, right?
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Edited by THE FINAL BAWSS: 2/11/2016 10:58:46 PMI'll respond to you in reverse: [i]"Many, many, many players here across the entire spectrum of skill will celebrate the day that "damage referee" penalizes habitual laggers."[/i] - In my case this is a direct result of SBMM matching me offshore, in affect Bungie is making me lag and now penalizing me for it. This seems like fairly solid logic on Bungie's side, and enough for me to maybe be a bit upset about it [i]"LOL, get the crap out of here Bro! You've just made a case to me that you don't know how to play casually, not that it ISN'T possible to play casually. That's like saying I can't interact with a lesser skilled out matched person without going 100%"[/i] - Wow maybe your just getting some stick and just reading on the offense but this isn't what i meant or even how it reads. No I'm not a pure sweat competitive PVP player, I work long hours I mostly play to relax, I have been playing FPS for well over 15 years it comes easy to me. If I want to take new friends into the crucible or less skilled players, how can I do this without ruining [b]there [/b] experience (I'll be fine I play to have fun, I can still get kills, noobies get slaughtered, re-spawn screen for 15 minutes ins't fun for anyone) [i]" Dude, pick an event, any event.... I dunno sports, cooking, throwing darts.... a friggin spelling contest. It is always possible to play "down" your skill level. However, the reverse isn't true."[/i] - absolutely so don't enforce hugely competitive game-play (SBMM) on me and let me relax with my friends [i]"I'm so sorry for what's potentially just around the corner for you if it "takes off." If the "damage referee" (coupled with SBMM) takes full effect across PVP playlists, it will most likely be very, very unkind to you "[/i] - Thanks I've already experienced it, if they dont sort out matchmaking I'll be moving on, love the game but its becoming unplayable
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Here, right here! Let's break this down.... - absolutely so don't enforce hugely competitive game-play (SBMM) on me and let me relax with my friends Here's the difference between mine/your interpretation: If the New Zealand national men's rugby union team, officially nicknamed the All Blacks, showed up on a playing field that my friends and I are playing on and said, "would you guys like to play a game?" I would be ecstatic and say to my friends, guys do you see what kind of opportunity this is, let's learn all we can from these guys and have a once in a lifetime good time. You'd be, okay guys, nows our once in a lifetime chance to beat these guys, let's not waste it. Can you see the difference. One side of the coin values the experience through interaction at a premium. The other side values the experience through winning at a premium. In a make believe world, some think they can go full try hard and still have a great social experience but these two endeavors are not compatible to all. That's why a lot of try hard competitive players are complaining about SBMM. Because, they want to "relax" or "not have to "try so hard" and yet they still don't want to lose. If you don't get it Bro, I'll understand.
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Edited by Killlerschaf: 2/11/2016 9:29:58 PMAt point 2) Since Bungie completely refused to talk about SBMM until very recently, it was the only way to make sure if SBMM is actually a thing. A lot of better players who noticed extremely sweaty matches created new accounts to make sure that they aren't imagining things. It has absolutely nothing to do with players being ultra competitive or wanting to protect their KD. It was literally the only scientific evidence we, the players, could provide, while Bungie was silent. At point 3) Who the eff plays games to lose? If I don't play PvP to win... Why do I even play? At Annex: If anything, the game needs 2 different playlists. One with SBMM and one without (for the same game mode). Forced SBMM is a completely asinine solution, and I probably have never witnessed people being so whiny and pardon me, cowardly, as they are in this game. There are better players than you. Live with it, and stop demanding to be sheltered from them.
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At your point 3. Said the try hard... LoL. Yeah, I'm not sure you'll get it Bro, but, GG. At least you tried.
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If try harding means, that I do not play to willingly lose, it's probably correct to describe me as such. However PvP is by definition a competitive activity (it's in the "versus") Playing competitive activities without wanting to win, is absolutely pointless (there's only one exception in this game and pretty much is only notable in this game and borderlands: you play it for the loot to use it in the PvE).
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Edited by BoogerLover: 2/11/2016 10:23:26 PMYeah Bro, Like I said, and I can tell that my hunch was right... "You" won't be able to grasp these concepts. Thanks for stopping by and I'm sorry that the secrets contained within this riddle elude's you.
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I get the concept of casually playing games or doing sports. When I play Tennis with a friend, or if I go skiing with my GF, I do it casually and non competitively, as I do not enter a skill based PvP activity (like a Football match between Barca and Real). However when I enter an activity that is based on playing against other players (the versus thing in PvP) and in which the objective is to win, not trying to win, is absolutely pointless. You're in the wrong game mode. (definition of versus, or against: : in opposition to (someone or something) : in competition with (someone or something) It's also fine and dandy that "I simply don't get it", however that's exactly why I asked you twice by now: What's the point of playing PvP, if you're not trying to win? Why play to lose?
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Edited by BoogerLover: 2/12/2016 6:35:25 AMOMG Bro! I'm back for more LoL... Let's break this down: "What's the point of playing PvP, if you're not trying to win? Why play to lose?" The point "could be" about the pure social aspect of playing with your friend and the game just becomes that "thing" that brings you two together. It's not necessarily playing to lose, I mean, you're trying but without going "all out." Because the point is to have fun with your friend. When I load up destiny to PVP with my young nephew, he and I both understand that we'll have to lose at least 3 matches until we can win; neither of us care. It's not the destination as much as it is the journey. You may not be wired for this... For example some people that are also known as "try hards" can't wrap their head around this simple concept. Booger, wait! How can I have a relaxing social fun time with my friends while losing.... If you're thinking along these lines then you most likely won't be able to comprehend what I'm trying to explain. And by your post above, I've gleaned that you "do" fit this mold.
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Most good players can pub stomp scrubs just chillin no effort involved playing casual. This isn't being a "try hard" it's like putting a professional sports team in against a youth baseball team. The Pros would literally have to force themselves to suck to not stomp the youth team.
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Um, okay.... It seems like you are making my argument for me here... you see that right...? Read my reply to your post above.
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Edited by CurlyMuch: 2/12/2016 10:55:08 AMI'm not for either "side" I'm just making a point you can interpret it as you will. If they add a sbmm playlist separate from the cbmm playlist then the problems would be solved.
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Edited by BoogerLover: 2/12/2016 11:07:11 AMMaybe, although, maybe not... For example, just based on the trending within this topic we can start to make a comparative analysis and see a theme starting to take shape: Higher skilled players = CBMM Lower skilled players = SBMM If we made a CBMM alongside SBMM and the data above held true, then predominately only Higher skilled players would elect to go into a CBMM playlist. If this were the resultant situation, there would be no significant change to the perceived sweat factor that they're all moaning about here. However, the lag issue would theoretically be better...but, I think Bungie's answer to that is via "damage referee."
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Edited by CurlyMuch: 2/12/2016 11:19:34 AMYou're right but wrong at the same time. High skill players don't enjoy stomping as much as they enjoy going up in rank. If they created a ranking system the sweats would stay in sbmm(ranked mode) where the stats in that playlist aren't effected by the casual playlist. It also works as a way for low skilled players to play against people near their skill levels. Again I have nothing against sweaty matches I actually don't enjoy stomping because I've been on the receiving end of the stomp numerous times. I just don't want to sweat to keep myself in a high Elo every single match (I care about elo sadly). The problem bungie has is the only way to rank oneself is to have a high Elo but there's only one playlist. I won't drop myself out of diamond 1 which I worked hard to get just to have non sweaty matches I'd rather just sweat it out. I could honestly care less if my KD is .2 and I lose every game in a casual playlist when it doesn't ruin my overall rank which I've worked hard to achieve. Edit: this only really addresses the sweat issue rather than the connection issue
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Well my friend, I don't totally agree with you on this. I've seen on Twitch, many examples of top players having a fine dandy of a time just stomping the ever-living guts out of lesser skilled players. Often bragging and posting tweets about how many kills they got in these lop-sided matches....even boasting about how they just broke their previous records and so on.... You see this quote right here: "I just don't want to sweat to keep myself in a high Elo every single match." This is the crux of "your" problem. This isn't a community problem. It isn't a problem about broken game mechanics. This is "your" personal problem and truthfully, many like you share in this viewpoint. Many of us are aware of artificially boosting ELO. Many of us understand how precious such things as KD/ELO are to people like you. However, we just aren't prepared to accommodate you by being fodder for your personal desires. Frankly, to suggest eliminating or even eroding anything that portends to cater to a fair match-up for the greater good of the majority is a selfish endeavor that is shallow at best and seems to forward a self-serving narcissistic agenda.
