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Edited by Mystin:
2/11/2016 7:06:24 PM
477
Why SBMM is ruining the game, from a top player
Edit: I am really happy to see such great discussion in here, but after reading various replies, there seems to be a lot of people misinterpreting my post. Let me be clear - SBMM, in a vacuum, is a [b]good[/b] thing. It promotes an even playing field where everyone has a chance to be on top and improve. I stated multiple times in my post that I am actually in [b]favor[/b] of SBMM, but it must be contained to specific playlists, like Trials or Iron Banner. The core argument that I, along with many others are making is how Bungie is [b]forcing[/b] SBMM across nearly every playlist. Revert back to having a casual connection-based group of playlists, and in addition create a ranked SBMM playlist or "league" where people can [b]choose[/b] to participate in.
I am speaking as someone who is in the top 1% in terms of K/D (2.9 in Clash/Control, 3.1 in Trials) and Win%. Please do not mistake me coming off as arrogant or elitist, I am merely providing a perspective.
Skill-Based Matchmaking across most/all playlists needs to go. [b]Period.[/b] My girlfriend and I use to always play Destiny together, mostly PvP, until last August when we started to do a bit of traveling together. We were thrilled to pick it back up, but already she wants to quit. We can no longer play together due to SBMM. I am posting from my new account, which I created solely to test out the new changes. I queued up with her for the first 10-15 games of my new Titan before my K/D started increasing, and we were being matched with players at her skill level. After multiple trial runs of queuing separately, the skill disparity between her games when she queued solo and with me, was enormous. When she queues solo now, she always gets at least 8-10 kills, but with me, she struggles to get 2-3.
After 12 years of online gaming, I have never dealt with a system as frustrating as this. [b]A competitive, evenly matched PvP environment is great[/b], and it's one of the reasons why I love Trials in Destiny, [b]but it needs to be an optional experience where players can choose to participate in when they want to.[/b] Bungie wants SBMM? Fine, then put it in Trials where it belongs. [b]At the very least, there needs to be a [u]clear separation[/u] between dedicated SBMM playlists, and CBMM playlists.[/b] Forcing it upon every player for every PvP match is not only absurd, it’s pushing people away from the game.
Is this what Bungie wants? To alienate PvPers across different skill levels? You advertised your game to incentivize playing with one another. Aside from my girlfriend, my other friends I used to play with no longer want to queue with me or even with one another due to the skill disparity. [b]The state of PvP is completely backwards right now.[/b] Originally introduced as the go-to competitive environment, Trials has now become the most laid back game type.
Aside from the fact that my girlfriend can no longer enjoy playing PvP with me due to getting stomped by everyone in the game, I can barely stomach solo queuing myself. As I said earlier, I love competitive PvP, it is one of the reasons why I ran Trials so much every weekend, but having a hyper-competitive sweat fest forced on me every single game is ridiculous.
After reading several topics similar to this, it’s pathetic how many players are using the “Oh look, another elitist try hard is butt hurt because he can’t roflstomp noobs anymore” card. This cannot be any further from the truth, one of the most enjoyable things for me was queuing up for Crucible to relax and try out some cool builds and weapon setups solo or with my friends. I can’t even do this anymore because every game I’m in is full of tryhards running top tier, cookie cutter builds.
SBMM is also a nightmare for any good players due to how the search functions. Instead of being pure connection based, the system tries to match you primarily with players around your skill level, which are very likely in different countries. Because of this, you end up with laggy, teleporting players and a completely degenerative experience.
Crimson doubles - what another great example at how terribly flawed SBMM is. My girlfriend and I were looking forward to doing doubles during this "Couples' Valentines Event." Across [b]seven[/b] games with me, she got 3 kills; every game we were matched against people my skill level. My girlfriend can't even enjoy a special event MADE for friends and couples due to SBMM.
I rarely post on forums, but it really depressed me when last night, during Crimson Doubles, my girlfriend flat out said “This is it, I quit. This isn’t even fun for me anymore.” She got the game for the sole purpose of playing PvP with me. Because of SBMM, the great experience we use to share has been taken from us.
I could probably go on with this for a while, but I did the best I could to condense this and keep it concise. When Destiny came out, it immediately became my favorite game. The friends and connections I have made through this game will stay with me for the rest of my life. I actually found this incredibly difficult to write, due to what Destiny means to me and how frustrating it is having that ruined by Bungie’s warped perception of how PvP “should” be.
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Tell your gf to get gud
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All this because your woman's Skill does not match yours?
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4 RepliesI cannot believe people are bitching because they are ending up with people of similar skill or better than them. It's literally shocking me that the cries have gone this far. They have improved the connection in SBMM as they have stated on more than one occasion and I've noticed it so it genuinely seems like people are upset because their 2.5 KD they once had is becoming hard. I totally understand the logic. Just like in PVE, you go into game modes and raids on hard difficulty the better you get. Nobody does Normal raids once they're 310+ even though they have the choice, the same should be applied to PVP. Your experience may be ruined from your perspective because you don't have an easy game once in a while. But the experience of the newcomers and the lower skilled players has probably been terrible every game prior to SBMM because they are being pub stomped by year 1 vets and high skilled players who trump them with every exotic they probably don't have yet. Im certain it drive them out of PVP twice as fast as someone like you who's probably been here since day 1 and is still here.
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clear, concise and well written, so its a shame when it'll be completely ignored..still gave you a thumbs up nonetheless.
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1 ReplySo it seems the experienced players want CBMM and the low level players need to get good or don't play. BUT They also want CBMM so they can play with their less experienced friends and carry them, save them the trouble of getting good. If the "get good" is a valid argument for having CBMM then it is just as valid applied to low skilled team mates playing in SBMM
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Edited by MindEntropy: 2/12/2016 8:32:29 PMI'm not a top 1% guy but I'm good enough to feel the effects of sbmm. So the past two days I've been playing on a girls account who has a .7 kd (I wanted to try out her God roll grasp and her snapshot ldr plus chill). It was quite easy 10-15 or so games in then I started seeing the same people on my old account even tho I only brought the kd to about .9. Why is this account getting sweaty too? Does it recognize a spike in skill? It's quite mysterious. Let's just say that if the person who owns the account was in those games they would've struggled to get one kill.
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Girlfriend? Is that a new species? A new DLC? [spoiler]jk lol, nice argument though, really hope bungie does something about it[/spoiler]
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Edited by Boomstick1911: 2/11/2016 9:48:21 PMThe facts are simple: SBMM does not work unless you are running on a system of dedicated servers with Region Lock enabled. That is the only way skill plays any remote factor in such a system. Anything else is not skill determined, but decided from the outset by lag. I remember when players actually learned from their defeats, rather than bitching at devs to dumb other players down to their level. It's a bullshit Socialist mentality, and it needs to be squashed with extreme prejudice. Another thing that needs to be ousted, is Join In Progress. I'll be damned if I am going to be handed a loss, or even a victory for that matter, that I did not royally screw up, or bust my ass to earn respectively.
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Also, in the notes related to the SBMM being implemented, Bungie mentioned that they also had a few more tricks up their sleeve to make it even more evenly matched. They'd never admit it, but I'm a bit suspicious that they're also "handicapping" individual players.
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Edited by drvankmen: 2/12/2016 7:54:33 PMRight on, good post. I would include further arguments against socialist experiments like sbmm because it causes an artificial and forced form of gameplay performance equilibrium where most players that fall in the average joe range (which most players do) will begin to lose those high highs and low lows that really force those elicit human emotions that bind us to games and experiences. Lobbies will all look feel and play the same every day every game in short. Your gameplays will feel, play and progress exactly the same way every game. This is not a dynamic online multiplayer experience when you know what to expect every lobby every game... I want the element of danger when i queue .. .maybe ill run into some super elite lobby and have to adjust my playstyle and loadouts to see if i can hang.... or maybe you get that dream lobby and put up a monster gameplay.... you lose all of this with forced sbmm. Also, sbmm assumes everyone wants and plays the game for the same reasons, when this cannot possibly be true. I say, if you provide lobby leaderboards with player statistics and remove all forms of sbmm from matchmaking, you put the power back in the players hands. Then have the power to choose if they want to play in one lobby or leave and roll another. Choice is always better than being forced to play the game the way some studio thinks you should. You the player should be in control of your gameplay experience. Under the conditions i list above, if you choose to stay in a particular lobby you will have the knowledge that the game gave you the best possible connection, and did not have to compromise connection to protect you from the big meanies out there. With that, it is up to you, the player to make the most of the game, as it should be. Are we guardians or mice? Get out there with the WHOLE community and mix it up, only then do you know where you stand.
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I'm going to tell it how it really is. We all know what everybody wants but no one wants to admit it. Against SBMM We want to stomp on scrubs because it's fun as -blam!- and chill. We no longer can do that, because there are no scrubs. I have to buy a controller every other day because the sweat from my hands. In favor of SBMM This whole lobby is full of scrubs! I can now pub stomp! Stop being greedy, we want to stomp on scrubs too.
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You're all over the place. While you make a good point for the lower end players. You are coming off as someone that wants to noob stomp. Yet you say trials is as laid back as can be. You can't have it both ways.
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Edited by BegFourMercy: 2/12/2016 7:04:33 PMBaby. Tell her to git gud.
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Bump * 9192631770 times
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15 RepliesYou said you were 1% in Control/Clash and trials......the fact that your Bungie profile list you only have 1,300 kills between both characters and that you GT doesnt even pull up in Trials Report, determines....THAT was a lie.
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2 RepliesMy girlfriend said the same thing yours said to me. She says she notices a gigantic difference in skill between her lobbies and my lobbies, and that it's not fun getting curb stomped by an obviously better crowd than her usual. She bought a ps4 and destiny so we could play pve and pvp together, but now that pve is stale we were in crucible alot. She has literally stopped playing altogether because she just can't compete with the tier of players that are in my group, and it's irritating me too. I'd like to walk into a game without headphones and try out a nicely rolled fusion or auto, but nowhere in sbmm does it allow for that when everyone runs the same 5 guns all the time. Every game is hyper competitive, and even though most games I end up at the top, it's not as enjoyable anymore, especially now that my girlfriend has also quit. I'm with you OP. SBMM only helps out bad players.
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Edited by ruppettypuppetty: 2/12/2016 5:51:14 PMOk, this is my take on it.....I'm not amazing but consider myself somewhat above average (1.8 trials kd/17-1800 elo) which is way better than I'd thought it would be. So, every week I play with some guys on my friends list, some of which are primarily pve focussed, as a result and what is usually the cause of their pve obsession, is their average or bad pvp kd, some around 0.3 or 0.4, so this has been my observation. Sometimes, well come up against absolute tryhards that annihilate us, is that my skill level they're all at? Who knows, and sometimes well match against one eyed people with thumbs made of jelly. Is that they're skill level were matching against? Who knows? Point in case, whilst yes, a lot of the matches since sbmm has been implemented have been more on the sweaty side, it still seems to have a somewhat random pick feel to it. Almost as though they don't know who to pick and like no particular algorithm is working more so than the other. In conclusionas everyone has said, a perfect mix of the two would be ideal. To those who would prefer sbmm, which by the sound of it isn't a great majority, you'll always fight the lag, which is the most infuriating thing to counteract or prepare for in every round (specific to trials) and those that want cbmm are either as some say, trying to I flare their kds, though the laws of average state that if there are less top tier players, the majority of their matches will be against people of less skill than them, inflating their kd. Which I can understand why a 1.0 wouldn't want to go agibst 3 or 4 teams throughout a trials card as the task is just too much for them, leading to them not wanting to play, making a good argument for sbmm. Or they just want to know that if they hit someone with their fist/super/ whatever gun or grenade they're using, that it'll actually register the damage. It's a tricky one to decide on tbh, all in all , I preferred how it was....the not taking forever to find a match, even with sbmm having redbars run on top spot consistently only to be tea bagged by them even though they're only winning as none of your bullets seem to register is not that fun lol. Sure, if your in the lower skill bracket and facing noobs or others at that bracket who are consistently bad, you'll find it fun, because your just wrecking kids that haven't played as much as you have or are going to be worse than you anyway.
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I completely agree with you. Sometimes I just want to play with my buddies and chill. However they are far enough better than me that I can barely function in some of those matches. It is A LOT different when I play by myself than when I play with them. I can't even get better because I'm too busy respawning. So I play a few games on my own for bounties and then move on for the day.
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1 ReplySuck it up you Jessie
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2 RepliesEdited by AzPharizon: 2/12/2016 5:54:48 PMI have never gone on this many losing streaks, I can't relax. I have to play the hardest I know how, I have no reason to play this game if this continues, I've done every pve event possible, all I had left was pvp and now I don't even enjoy that. I get headaches playing this game now, haven't smiled in any of my matches I'm unhappy playing a game I have loved since day one. Like I literally will not play Crimson doubles anymore now that I've completed the bounties. Bungie please.
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I thought this was going to be a complaint about how SBMM ruins connections. Which is why I dislike it. But yeah. Bungie needs to keep SBMM for trials. Maybe IB. or like you said a seperate playlist that people can opt into. Destiny is not designed at it's core as a competitive game. So forcing SBMM into the norm where it's biggest group the casual players exist is a terrible idea. I honestly just look at destiny as a giant beta test these days. Hopefully in destiny 2 with all this info we will get a good game.
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It's impossible to make a perfect system that pleases everyone. This is why bungie should consider allowing players to create their own lobbies. At least that way when noobs go up against pros they have someone else to blame besides bungie.
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2 RepliesThe problem isn't SBMM. Honestly, I think the top players would enjoy derping around against other top players derping around, instead of just pub stomping. Waving at the start of a match is a signal to play the game in a sweaty approach. Perhaps a different signal (could be an emote, shader, emblem) could be agreed on to play the game in a casual manner.
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Well said dude
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135 RepliesAs a proud holder of a .91 kd I prefer SBMM. I've avoided the crucible like the plague for most of the 1st year of destiny. Every time I set foot in a PVP match I would get massacred, absolutely destroyed, bottom of the leader board every single time. It was so frustrating and infuriating that I just avoided it all together. Now that PVE offers next to nothing, I started playing PVP recently. I'm still not good, but now I am playing with other people that are not good also and the experience as a whole has been amazing. I enjoy PVP now, I am getting better, learning the maps, learning how to flank, rush, snipe. Its also improving my PVE skill. I am not top of the board every match, but Im in the top 3 most games. 99% of sub 1.0 kd players do not want to be massacred over and over again, it isn't fun and does nothing but keep a large majority out of PVP altogether.
