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Edited by Crusader Cj:
3/2/2015 3:20:33 PM
10
Did anyone even watch and listen to the video at all? Cause from what I hear, not long after the scuffle on he ground that homeless dude makes a grab for one of the officers firearms, now from that point of view, you're told if someone tried to get something from your belt, it's to use it against you. Whether that be baton/Pava/Captor(Whatever irritant) Taser or the ultimate no-no, your sidearm (should you carry one). You can hear one of the Officers saying "Gun, Gun! Let go of the gun, let go of the gun" and words to that effect. They then seemingly try less than lethal option first by tasering the fellow, by drive stun it looks like, which for whatever reason hasn't worked (Some people are naturally more resistant, might've had poor contact due to clothing, etc) so they made a split second decision after that failure to use lethal force in order to prevent that guy getting a hold of that officers firearm.
TL;DR - Dude made a grab for sidearm, they tried strikes and Taser to undo the grab, it failed, they shot him.
Shit happens quick in situations like that and allowing that dude to grab the sidearm could've ended pretty damn bad for those Officers and potentially the wider public.
Just my informed opinion based on what I can see and hear during the altercation itself. I'm not from the States but use of force is pretty universal wherever you go, I'd imagine.
[spoiler] I'll prepare for hate now for offering a different point of view, other than to just straight slam their decision. [/spoiler]
English
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Bump.
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Agreed. Well said.
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Well 4 cops were ganging up on him maybe he thought this was the end why not at least try to stop them the only way he could try? I don't know all i do know is, if 4 trained officers can't physically restrain a man enough to handcuff and subdue him then those are kinda shitty cops either way.
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Unfortunately it doesn't always go down like that. I've seen teenage girls bounce big cops off walls like they were pillows. Also the "outnumbering rule" doesn't always work. You don't know what people have on them, more so people you don't know or even what they're capable of (I'm sure you've seen videos of seemingly harmless people utterly wreck multiple assailants). But I don't think that the reaction of "Oh there's four of them, I better grab his firearm, that'll stop them arresting me" would ever be a good idea in any circumstance. Ever. That homeless gent was getting arrested and during that resistance, which is say was active resistance by the time he's on the deck made a very clear sign that he really wanted to do harm to those guys by trying to get a hold of his sidearm. He was asked several times to let go and he clearly refused, hell he was even tasered in an attempt to get him to release his grip on the holstered firearm. He was adamant he was going to get that firearm. A few more seconds of struggling and he may have. Or he may not have, but the threat and risk that individual posed at that time was huge. As I said in my above statement, things happen very quickly and the human body goes through some crazy changes during times of pressure and stress, it'd be probably safe to say they took lethal force as a last resort there (which it seemed to be, granted it all happened quickly but they tried verbals, strikes and taser before deploying their firearms). Just my opinion though, I've no idea how bad things are for Police/Civvies State Side. But from a policing perspective and even that of a self defense point of view, they did well. Granted it ended a life, but that could have gone far worse. [spoiler]Sorry for the wall of text. Hope it added some perspective. [/spoiler]
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Had a different opinion till I read your perspective and had to agree. training dictates that if someone makes a grab for your firearm you escalate the force, I have rewatched with your opinion in mind and have to agree, I thought the taser happened pregrab not post. Also if these guys training is at all similar to mine sometimes the prescribed grabs and holds don't work, and the punches that may work are for some reason almost the same level of force as lethal force, my thought is one of the cops heard firearm upgraded to the right force level for firearms, the others caught in the moment followed because the keywords told them it was appropriate level response. They always tell you that when you don't know what to do you will fall to training and is true. I hope honestly to never have to fire at another person, even with training the thought of taking a life is horrifying.
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That may be true but these are cops trained to take down people stronger or bigger than them. They are trained in self defense to prevent this very situation. It still is not an excuse they are trained not civilians. And as for the reaching for the gun its not to stop them its a last ditch effort to kill them or something. The dude probably felt like he was going to die anyway so why not grab a gun and go down swinging so to speak? I'm not defending him but that might have been what was going through his head. All I know is the situation escalated and being a professional cop they should have handled it better is all.
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If they are trained in mach takedown techniques like I think they are is debatable, with the right angle an experience you can take and hold a person bigger than you, but if any of the cops are not training the grabs almost everyday that edge wears off fast. I have to do train almost weekly with the other members of my team of I go on leave I'm so rusty so fast is hilarious. I doubt most police have that kind of dedication.
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Edited by ShpadoinkleBeks: 3/2/2015 8:58:01 PMIts the training I think is the issue. It seems like too many fat and out of shape people are cops nowadays. Like you said I think cops should be in tip top shape considering they are the protecting force. Its situational though so like you said you are not always at the top of your game all the time.
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To be honest the dude would probably be found dead eventually so its not big deal. I just wish more cops in general not even these ones, would just be more professional and not just intimidating to me anyway.
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Again mate, appreciate your statements with regards to trying to find a better solution. But with regards to the self defense training, yeah it's good but no amount of self defense in the world will guarantee safety against bladed articles or firearms at that proximity. If the bloke didn't have a hand on that firearm, then yes there would have been a few good options for them to employ with regards to arrest and restraint, but in the immediacy and panic you'd go through when someone grabs your sidearm and the taser has just failed, man. They're professional but not robots. You'd be bricking your pants, I certainly would be. Their fear for their own lives has to be taken into consideration and if the ancient old "Him or me" came out, it's obviously going to be him. Sad truth but everyone has a right to life, even Cops.
