Its not just this community. Its the ugly underbelly of gaming, and this internet generation. Right Now Angry Joe is getting attacked by trolls and haters within his own fanbase who are attacking him for wanting to take a two month break after 9 years of making (free) YouTube content. Just a couple of days ago, I was watching a Warframe video about the rising levels of toxicity among Warframe content creators....and you can't swing a dead cat online right now without hitting people who are getting fed-up with how toxic competitive Overwatch is becoming? The issue? Two things, imo. An aggressive sense of entitlement that seems to be unique to this generation.....and addiction. The situation that is going on with Angry Joe right now is PURE entitlement. Here's guy who is literally getting bullied on his own YT channel by people who think they have a RIGHT to FREE content. Not only FREE content but precisely the TYPE of content they want and WHEN they want it...and they are determined to bully-and-control him and smash up his channel until he **complies** Its a sad, sickening spectacle of mob-mentality at work. Unfortunately, it seems that Joe's own sense of confidence and boundaries are such that he feeds into it. Because he keeps acting like he needs to justifies his actions and decisions, and has been unwilling to (until just recently) tell these ass holes to go -blam!- themselves. I think the situation going on with Warframe, though is, more indicative of the wider problem though...a.nd the video I was watching (the creator's name escapes me) imo, really nailed it. That you have people who are compulsively gaming. They continue to play games that they are burned out on, and that they no longer enjoy playing.....because they either CAN"T stop playing or (in the case of YT creators) REFUSE to stop playing because they are making a living off of these games. So the more and more they play a game they no longer enjoy, the angrier they become. The less they feel they have control over their lives, and the more they feel the need (and the right) to lash out at everyone around them. I think the problem Overwatch is facing has a similar root cause. Ranked play in Overwatch forces people to play frequently so that they don't lose rank points and status due to inactivity. So you have people who have been playing that game for a year...there has only been a few new maps, play modes, and heroes added to the game during that time. So I'm sure that are people who are JUST sick-and-tired of playing....but continue to play just to avoid being punished. As a result you have them acting out their frustration in ways that make ranked play miserable for others that have to play with them. Then there is just good old-fashioned addiction. If the statistics in other activities that allow people to "feel good" bear out. One in 10 gamers is an addict. They play compulsively, joylessly....and their lives are being negatively affected as a result....but they cannot stop because they feel even worse if they try to. ...and addicts-----of all varieties----are some of the ANGRIEST people you ever want to meet. They're miserable, and they know it. But they can't bring themselves to be honest about the real source of their misery-----their addiction-----so they attack, blame, and rage at everyone and everything ESLE around them. In order to protect their "drug" of choice. So, I wouldn't be surprised-----if you dug deep enough----you'd find that more than a few of the people behaving like this online, are people that are "process-addicted" to video gaming.....and are miserable. ...and their behavior reflects that misery, and their efforts to "protect" the addiction.

[quote] But seriously, I always knew this community was bogged down with trolls and negative haters. [/quote] It has more than just haters. It has fanboys as well. [quote]But there's been about 5% of this community that wants to have real discussions about positive and CONSTRUCTIVE criticisms. [[/quote] Hyperbole. Throwing around false numbers to prove a point? [quote]Do you honestly think Bungie or Activision is going to listen to the millions of cry babies and the "I'm cancelling my preorders" brigades?![/quote] Do you honestly think they will listen to pvp crybabies...? Oh wait. Also, why does it matter to you if they cancel? If you don't like to be told TO cancel they don't want to be told NOT to cancel.

I disagree with the premise of your post. Sure, there are a few haters around here who will shit on anything Bungie does, but they are fewer than you might think, and there are FAR FEWER blind haters than blind fans around here. I emphasize the word "blind." Most of us here who aren't afraid to call-out Bungie on their bullshit have played the hell out of this game, and loved it for years. We're simply fed-up and disgusted with the way Bungie handled D1, and are deeply skeptical about D2. There's nothing blind about it. You can be excited for D2. I hope the game is epic! Just be sure not to put on rose-colored glasses, only to turn around and accuse us of being blind.

Dats raysist!

I voted that your wrong, and the reason is pretty simple. Bungie is to blame for the state of the community. Destiny is/was a hybrid game that melds different styles of gameplay. People had hoped it would have the continuity of an MMO as it grew, but that turned out to not be the case, but the game is/was a Loot-grinder in PVE, and an FPS in PVP. So you have effectively two distinct groups with wildly diverging needs and desires in this game. When most game companies have this situation where one side of the community will pull/push against the other, they do the wise thing - they anticipate the conflict and they separate the two modes so that the game is never a zero sum game in which one side profits at the cost of the other. Bungie has not done this. They have failed to separate PVE from PVP. And that, in and of itself, pits one part of the community at odds with the other. But that isn't even half of it. It's one thing to set up a system which pits the community against itself, but it is entirely ANOTHER thing to fan the flames of the fire that is sure to break out. Bungie has done this by clearly demonstrating that one side of the community takes priority of the other. Basically, because of the unified sandbox system, we're put in a position where PVE and PVP should be making COMPROMISES so that both communities can flourish and get SOME (but not ALL) of what they wanted. Instead, Bungie has routinely prioritized PVP at the expense of PVE. Showing blatant favoritism for one side over the other has done nothing to ease tensions between the two communities. Instead, it has only made things worse, with those who benefit from the changes often telling those on the other side to just shut up, quit complaining, adapt. This only provokes the PVE community to respond in kind. And I can't say that I blame them one bit. We're constantly told we need to co-exist, but the only people paying the cost for co-existing has been the PVE community. If you want to know who is responsible for this community being so toxic, the ONLY party bearing blame is Bungie. They could have separated PVE from PVP with D2, and they failed to do so, which pretty much ensures that this toxic dance we don on the forums will continue for at least another 3 years.

Online forum communities are the end result of how a developer interacts with it's customers / playerbase. "The community makes the forums the way it is" is only a piece of it. If a developer can't address issues and player concerns properly and is not transparent with it's player base it will breed a toxic community in return. Give people a reason to pick up pitchforks and they will - Something Bungievision can be crowned king for. Well, League of Legends might have them beat with their toxicity. Now if a developer handles it's customers with attention you can get far more positive online communities like Titanfall 2 and Guild Wars 2 have. Point is, the community plays a part as does the developer.

[url=https://archive.org/stream/357988-bungie-activision-contract/357988-bungie-activision-contract_djvu.txt]Something to ponder[/url], for the people who want to lay the blame for our toxicity on Bungie, for not moderating or engaging more with the forum. This is straight from their contract with Activision. They're literally [i]not allowed[/i] to heavily moderate the forum because there's a hard cap on how many employees they can use to do that: [quote]...it is agreed by the parties hereto that one hundred percent (100%) of Licensor's studio/development personnel shall be exclusively dedicated to working on the Products during the Development Term (the "Exclusive Period"); provided, however, subject to the further restrictions set forth in Sections 8.4 and 8.5 , [b]Licensor shall have the right to utilize (i) no more than seven (7) employees (but excluding any Key Members) and no more than ten (10) contractors to work on and operate Bungie.net [/b](unless any Product is in a state of Critical Risk, then the immediately foregoing numbers shall be reduced to no more than three (3) employees and no more than three (3) contractors)...[/quote] Let's look a little deeper: [quote]...In close collaboration with Activision and [b]subject to the prior approval of Activision[/b] (such approval not to be unreasonably withheld), [b]Licensor shall retain the right to release[/b] screenshots, videos, concept art or any other marketing and public relations information or [b]statements via its community website[/b], corporate public relations and other outreach channels like community events and conventions. Activision and Licensor shall collaborate to maximize community development and outreach efforts. In light of Licensor's history of community building and expertise in sustaining consumer engagement, Licensor shall have the continuing right to drive community via Bungie.net, community events and other touch points...[/quote] Bungie is legally constrained in how they can interact with us on the forum they run. They have to ask Activision for permission to release information here. That certainly doesn't give them a free pass against all complaints, but it's something to keep in mind.

Aren't you adding to the issue, by continuing to fight others within the community?

People posting their feelings and opinions is not the issue. The biggest problem is that people are seemingly 'not allowed' to have positive views of D2. Any positive thread is attacked and those posters are demeaned (Fanboy now = Desticle) and dismissed. Even this thread, which is trying to promote positivity on the forums is already down voted to zero. Pathetic. People who have been perma-banned are allowed to roam around with their alts. Basically Bungie has lost control of the forums and it's onyl going to get worse. They need to drastically change their enforcement policies if they want this to be a better place before D2.

The cancelling preorder posts can be valuable but the trolls are pretty equal opportunity. Down votes for everyone!

If a game has many problems, the community will have many problems. Destiny has a [b]lot[/b] of problems. If you want to fix the community, then you must fix the game.

I've stopped taking this community seriously. There's no use arguing about actual topics over the internet on a video game forum. I'm just here for a good laugh and to kill some time at work between clients and meetings.

It's really just this forum. This place is only for entertainment.

Your exactly right! I'm tired of the endless "I'm cancelling" posts because A. That's your money why tell us B. They usually only post one sentence saying "destiny 2 will suck". How is that constructive in anyway? I personally don't believe that half of the people who have cancelled have actually done so and simply want to shit on the game. It also pisses me off how people justify their mindless hate with "p2p and 30fps" and attempting to use technical words even though they have no idea what peer to peer is and wouldn't notice 60fps if it flattened them on a motorway. The posts out there that talk negatively but have good reason and valid arguments such as the 4v4 posts and other gameplay related annoyances are fine but we as players have no right to criticise the info structure and behind the scenes work unless you work in game development!