How will this affect a melee/shotgun battle? Several times I know I've nearly killed a shotgun user with bullets, went to deliver the melee and die by the shotgun. I realize its pretty deadly to be hit by a shotgun point blank, but the melee should still have momentum to kill the shotty even though the body doing it is dead. Its like shooting a hefty laptop flying towards your head: sure, you destroyed the functionality of the computer, but its still 2-5 pounds of metal flying towards your head.

I like how you used the smudging of your black crayon for your shading technique.... Kudos to Frankie and P.S I really like how you guys like to help charity, it makes me feel like these aren't just game developers helping gamers, they're game developers helping the world Thanks for the melee update. Your biggest fan - tooji

Bungie, melee aside, how does the damage detection model work for Halo 3, with regards to the 100ms lag average and resolving what the client sees vs what the host sees? In general, does the host trust the input from the client? So if I see myself shooting at someone, does the host, for the most part, trust my input? Or am I just shooting at ghost images i.e. the image I see is 100ms behind what the host sees and thus, the host sees me missing my target. Do we need to lead our shots to the spot where the host sees our enemy? If we need to lead our shots to compensate for the 100ms lag, then this game REALLY needs a damage recognition beep issued by the host, similar to that of Halo PC. In Halo PC you would often need to lead your shots so far out in front of your enemy that you would visually see yourself missing, but the server beep would let you know that your shots are connecting with your target.

I must say, I'm not a fan of this new melee system on paper. I saw no problem with the old system. Yes, there is the chance for random selection to come in to play. But I've never meleed or been meleed and questioned why. It's always clear to me that the winner of the melee was the person with more health and rightly so. And using the logic provided, we should just assume every bullet that comes out of the ARs is a hit. One might lose out because of lag and one of their shots didn't register. If you ask me, this is making a flawed system more flawed. But perhaps it will work in practice. If we look at life on a 0-100 scale (100 being full), I could understand if the draw happens when the difference is around 5-10. But even then, I would perfer that both players drop to 1 point of health and continue fighting instead of both people dieing. Think of it like energy swords are currently. That system works. Why not bring it over to melee?

cool bungie! good info

geez, I am so psyched for all the new stuff... maps, updates, hoppers... geez.

TO: Bungie FROM: WheelmanForHire RE: The Melee Update. DATE: refer to post information. Maybe a memo will get your bureaucratic attention. Because this seems like a bureaucratic idea: Kill the meaning behind battle just because some people can't take losing for "no reason" If you ask me, the "fix" of the melee system, with mutual deaths, will ASSURE no reason to the entire engagement of fists. [b]Everyone who has paid attention KNOWS that the battle is given to the victor with the highest health level.[/b] You have told us this at least twice by my reckoning. HOWEVER This "fix" is unacceptable. Given the usual means by which melees come down to (in my games) They are down to the wire and usually engaged by both players, heading towards each other, and swinging. Both people's shields are usually depleted or low. Under Halo 1/2 the winner was the first to strike. Understandably, Halo 3 gives it to the one with the higher shield. Now: BOTH PLAYERS DIE. How insanely stupid is that? Is Bungie trying to invoke MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction, to the uneducated) tactics and just do away with melee? What's going to be the point of melee? It'll be assassination or nothing. Granted, it will be given to interpretation on how they phrase: "[i]sizeable health advantage[/i]" if that's going to be just a "notable" As to whether that means a shield advantage, or the indeterminable "health" post shields. HOW THEY SHOULD DO IT: Instead of a double kill, a "clash" or blocked attack should happen (a glancing blow of the other's strike). A timer started on both consoles at the event, and the first person to swing a second time is given the kill after conferring who has swung first. Alternatively, blows are weighted towards direction. Whoever is closer to "center" on their target is given the stronger strike and the kill. (instead of swinging "close" and hitting their shoulder for a lethal kill) OR JUST GO BACK TO FIRST COME FIRST SERVE. -------------------------------------------------------------- I can't say right now how I'll respond. If this becomes as much of a nuisance as I think it I will have to retire Halo. With 20% of my kills being from melee and being a close quarters player I don't see any reason to proceed to the battle-rifle fest that it shall become. Just because some people can't UNDERSTAND or ADJUST to the new system doesn't mean it requires an overhaul like you suggest. All you're managing to do is cater to the whiners who refuse to learn the system and complain the loudest. The rest of us has quietly upped and changed our game. @1086K to 667D, melee only, I have learned to ADAPT to the new melee system. It's not "random" to me. I've learned to avoid engagements where I know they have the bullet count upperhand. You don't have to count bullets, you just have to know who fired first and how long you've kept on target. If you can fire first and keep your crosshair on them then you're up for the win. If you have strayed off target or they fired first then it's best to keep your distance and hope to evade the fire. IT IS NOT THAT HARD. This new system, depending on how bad it goes, could (by my estimates of "close" melee engagements, alter my melee success from anywhere of 5% to 20% I'd rather ask "what" instead of be pissed that I'm forced to wait a respawn time for a mutual death. It sucked to sit through ALL of Romeo and Juliet just to watch them both die and I'll feel the same way every fight this happens. I'd rather the fight actually be meaningful. I'd rather die and let them, the understandable winner of the foray, (knowing that they had the edge damage-wise) then to have us both die and waste our times and negate the battle entirely. This could be a deal-breaker, Bungie. If this proceeds as you've planned and even ebbs on a 10% frustration rate, I'll walk faster than through 2 straight rounds of shotty snipers (I've said, already, I'm a close range player. I don't do snipers. Green Thumb, Inverted, 8's don't snipe.

I love you Bungie.

bungie should really consider handling close melee contests in a fashion similar to how close sword battles are handled. it seems to me that if you punch at the same time, couldn't the meeting punches be treated as partial blocking moves, requiring further battling to determine a winner? instead of worrying about who has the most HP as the tie-breaker, why not kick the decision down the line and let quick reaction time determine the victor? it would be a hell of a video to see players trading punch after punch until someone can circle around and get the assassination or out strike his opponent! a true contest of skill and agility! no winner until a blow goes unanswered, that's what i say. -death can i haz recon? [Edited on 02.09.2008 4:10 PM PST]

i also wanted to add that losing a melee for no reason SUCKS. i hope bungie fixes it with expediency, and as long as a reason can be determined, i'm happy. i personally own two xbox live accounts, so my visiting friends can play halo with me. when guys that pride themselves on beat downs and play with boxer button settings are screaming at the tv because they don't understand why they're losing, i say it's time for a fix. [b]First Come, First SERVED[/b] This is the simplest, easiest answer and it licks. Halo is an intense game, based on tick times that are so short it would be incomprehensible to most humans. When dealing with things like that, and tossing in even minute network latency, first come first serve just can't handle the demand. Consider how many times you get on a roll and are beasting fools and then blam! you're stuck because of a 3 frame delay? for the birds, i say. [b]HP Tie-breaker[/b] An easy mathematical solution to an existential problem. While it's easily rationalized as an intelligent fix, and it is, upon further inspection one can see it's fundamental flaw. Who is the contest between? Melee 1 and melee 2. Not, melee 1, melee 2, and that grenade spamming SOB that hurt your shields before you stepped up. Good solution, but not the best. [b]The Duel[/b] This is my solution and, I believe strongly, the best one. This solution can utilize the current Halo 3 melee timing handling AND the current Halo 3 sword melee handling. Code would have to be written, for sure, but using pre-existing code always simplifies the process. Here's how it would work: player 1 and player 2 meet on the field of battle. player 1 has just escaped from a prior battle and has only 30% shields. player 2 has full shields. both have full body hp. after exchanging a few projectile attacks, they meet, and in a common halo 3 improbability, trade punches simultaneously (or at least at the determination of the host). there is a flash, both player's shields drop, but both are still standing, facing one another again within melee range. player 2 hits the melee button again, but too sooN! player 1 waits for the recovery and strikes him down, perhaps scoring a double kill. player 2 loses because he got over zealous, player 1 is now on a roll and is pushing deeper! the game has improved using this system. please adopt it. i've always wanted a method that would enable players to rely almost solely on melee attacks. can you imagine the bridge on narrows? no more crying when you have to reload, just run in and attack! if you can't die from an answered melee attack, there's a chance you could take out huge strings of close-up players without ever firing a bullet. of course you'd have no health so a single AR bullet would drop you, but i say that's just a check & balance against my system. -death can i haz recon?

What about optimal playing conditions? Why not use the currently calculated lag with a 100ms cap instead? I'm not sure about the blocking melee ideas though; that seems like it would draw battles out too frequently. [Edited on 02.09.2008 4:48 PM PST]

Nice update, and someone seems to be learning their spanish :).

"The moral: when in doubt, check the host’s film, because latency still matters. Just a whole lot less than Halo 2." And how does one determine who the host is??

yea, i have always wondered how to determine the host!

Great update Bungie. Thanks for the info regarding body health (and all the goodness regarding the explanation). It really clears up some things that were "random" occasionally. Two quick hits, an amen followed by an oh well: First jab - From what I've understood, the Valentine's hopper starts on the 13th (Wed) and closes early on the 18th (Mon). Since that's a Federal Holiday in the states, could you push that back to the 19th? Just a thought. Double Trouble - In the beta, players while in the party had the ability to save films to their HDD after a match w/o switching to the Theater lobby. Is there any way to go back to that? Por favor? The reasons are evident. The solution on the other hand may not be. That'll Preach! - Frojoe186 was right when he asked about the 100 custom limit. It seems a little small (keep hitting the rafters myself). Oh well - My Bengals took a beating 50-33 in three consecutive matches. Hopefully not another so-so year in the making. Thanks for taking them on, Gents. F27

Another, but much less important thing you guys need to fix is the missing armor. Every now and then while I'm playing a match or what not, my armor suddenly reverts back to original MC instead of my custom set. It happens frequently and sometimes it says that I haven't unlocked a certain piece of armor, but actually I've had it unlocked for some time now. Usually, it happens with Scout and Security.

Cool, can't wait for the other map pack. Lol.

Ok, so bungie said they are unlocking the elite commando sholders for everyone, but what about the spartan security sholders? I had mine for about 2 weeks and now they are locked again. Has this happened to anyone else?

congrats that is the smartest way to deal with melees so far. I'm not sure if you should have changed the whole game with it . Maybe make a LAN AU and a XBL AU. I'm almost positive the elites have the same hit boxes as the humans. I'm not sure if youve noticed but the head of the elite is lower then the one on the human which means the hit boxes shouldnt be the same. Yea its a very good start for the first AU, but i dont think making the elite character more appealing was a very good idea. Over all very nice on the melee fix none of the other updates mattered.

Finaly no more bs.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] lukems OMG Fix Melee. OK, we will - and here's what we're going to do... [url=/news/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid=13233] click for full story [/url][/quote] Wait wait -- It's very good you're addressing the melee... FINALLY.. but what about the sniper glitch? AKA last night when I shot someone in the dome 5 times and they took no damage and my reticle was RED and NOTHING was obstructing my path to their head? What about that?

Ummm... no better spawn system? wow

not to spite you guys or anything but in real life if two people go against each other with any type of weapon doesnt the first person who hits first win? you could be shot in the leg already but if you hit the enemy first in the head with a weapon you win(you kill them). i know halo isnt supposed to be like real life but in my personal opinion it just seems like the first person who hits first should get the kill. it also seems logical in the game that whoever has more health wins but either is fine with me.

FIRST COME FIRST SERVE FTW! I never had a problem with the halo 2 system of melee when it came to who won a fight. If my smack missed then sure it maybe annoying, but that happens just as much in halo 3. The only thing that is different in Halo 3 is now that you can never pull out something clutch. There will be many times now when both players die and both are screaming and frustrated. In the past Bungie has been innovative and intelligent with their gameplay. Now they are caught up in trying to please all the players who can not swallow the fact that they are not the best player in the world. The only issue with halo 2 was when you encountered the host, the host always had the advantage. That does not matter in casual play. Bungie always claims match making is for fun and is only to find good matches. The host advantage was much more prevalent in bullets registering than Melee's. I played around 20,000 games of halo 2 and never once questioned the melee system. If you shortened the lunge a bit then that would be fine, but not this. If the person is one your screen for god sakes then you get the melee, let alone basing it on health because of a false fear of latency. In reality bungie, if most players have a latency of 90, then when 2 non host players hit the melee the outcome is accurate. Having a bad connection has always been a well known disadvantage in online shooters, your communistic efforts to help the poor takes away from the overall gameplay. I have been an avid bungie fan for years. I say this from my heart, please look back to your roots where balance and gameplay mattered. If someone has a bad connection or slow reflexes, -blam!- them, they lose. That's life. In the near future I see bungie losing their reign and CoD 4 rising to the top. CoD 4 already has more players logging onto xbox live and is growing daily, while Halo 3 is falling. I want to play halo, not CoD. But if you're going to make ridiculous gameplay changes like this fix (which as I feared would not fix anything), I have no choice but to bring my competitive edge to another medium. Get well soon Halo, Zach The One

Invisible hit points? No wonder the game is so frustrating sometimes, Don't you think that the revelation of this valuable information would have been more useful before people started to quit playing matchmaking? I played endless hours of Halo CE and Halo 2, especially Halo 2, and I got tired of Halo 3 within a couple of months. This update will definately fix some issues, but I fear its just a tad late to save it. Also, what I find to be a slight hypocritical is the fact that this update specifically talks about host advantage, which Bungie claimed for two years after Halo 2 came out, didn't exist. LOL One last thought, next time get some "real gamers" outside of an office environment, and have them test the game on normal internet connections to find the true characteristic of online gameplay.

i can has dlc? great update impressed with the panoramas, loved the mister chief, excited about the new hopper, ready for some fresh dlc, and a podcast, and i didnt really have much of a problem with the melee before (i usually have a pretty fast connection), but if its getting improved, its sounds good! and i dont play as an elite, but i just recently got steppin razor legit so commando shoulders sound good too! once again, great update