[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dr Syx When did I say that it had to be Keyboard/Mouse based?[/quote] Considering that the vast majority of people who demand no aim assist would also find using a gamepad without assist to be extremely obnoxious, I consider it implied. [quote]If we were going to talk about which hardware (At the moment) is better for competitive play, I would have to say keyboard/mouse. Think about what you said. You're giving up precision for it to be comfortable. Does that not sound extremely casual to you?[/quote] Not just to be comfortable; I was using that as one justification for preferring it. It's a qualitatively different sort of gameplay. Kind of irrelevant either way, though. Plenty of sports through the ages have forced various kinds of handicaps and oddities, and whether they've been more comfortable or not has largely been subjective anyway; many M&K users find gamepads to be absolutely clumsy and obnoxious on a basic level. //============== Now, let's see... [b]Here's your conclusion that we were discussing:[/b] [quote]You still can't get the insanely high skill ceiling without a keyboard/mouse.[/quote] [b]And here are your supporting points:[/b] [quote]I played Halo: Combat Evolved over Xlink Kai recently and it was ridiculous.[/quote] Okay, how was it ridiculous? Was everyone performing similarly well, and good execution not resulting in decent success, or what? You haven't really explained anything here. (Anyway, of course it's going to be ridiculous in some way or another; you're tunneling a game built only for LAN play over the internet. Using that as a testbed or demonstrator for anything is tenuous.) [quote]A mouse gives you absolute freedom of movement. You can go however fast/slow as you want. That makes it to where you can do still like [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKs6myXmRr0]this[/url]. You can't play stuff like Quake III Arena with a controller properly. That's because it's a game based on a much higher skill gap that isn't harmed by the controller/aim assist combo.[/quote] I agree with the first half. I'm fully aware that M&K enables sorts of gameplay that aren't viable with a controller; the only classic shooter I've been playing recently is Marathon, and even with its awful mouse support (and its also having been designed to support keyboard-only play) I can see that. But I'm failing to see how this implies a skill gap difference in and of itself. As far as I can see, it simply means that Quake was designed in such a way that, understanding that its interface makes many things easier than a gamepad would, it forces players to do more "difficult" things, because it [i]has[/i] to in order to maintain a high skill gap. (Obviously the designers wouldn't have looked at it from that angle, since the comparison would have been with some sort of PC competitive base point rather than a gamepad, but it a comparison discussion like this, that's what it boils down to.) [quote]The only reason you think Halo has a high skill ceiling is because you probably only known console competitive gaming. That's the problem when it comes to these discussions. Who do you think has more authority to talk about these things? People who are comfortable with both forms/Play them both regularly or someone that has probably rarely played with a keyboard/mouse on truly skillful PC shooters?[/quote] Probably someone who is comfortable with both. And, if you fall into that group as you claim to do, you should be especially qualified to explain this stuff. And so I fall back to my older statement: Justify the logical leap you've made. [Edited on 12.23.2011 11:57 AM PST]