Spartan II´s set the bar for what Spartan´s should be, in current times. Spartan III´s easily reach that level. I don´t see SIV´s reaching them. If something falls short, should it still be considered equal to the others?

They meet all of the requirements of the UNSC's Spartans. They're superhuman, outfitted with the best armor the UNSC could produce, put into squads, and sent out to combat threats other branched of their military could not. Keep in mind, they were [i]designed[/i] to be different from their prototypes. The UNSC [i]specifically avoided[/i] training and augmenting children. In the long run, that was a terrible idea, but it was necessary at the time because augmentations could only be done on children. After the war, the UNSC had superior augmentations that are not required to be done on children. Instead, they're only used on trained veterans of the war, because (and this is the part you don't seem to understand) using children as soldiers [i]is a bad thing[/i]. The IIs are mentally f*cked up. Realistically, the training they went through would have killed their bodies, not made them killing machines. The IIIs are the same. The IVs remove that problem. They are more practical in [i]every[/i] way.

[quote]After the war, the UNSC had superior augmentations that are not required to be done on children.[/quote] They somehow had the money for it, because you know, stashes of infinite money is great to have handy. Spartan II´s are not mentally -blam!-ed up. They may have sociopathic tendencies, but is all. Not even all of them are like this. Look at Kurt. Being a sociopath because of your circumstances doesn´t make you mentally -blam!-ed up. If you really belive this, then you really need to rethink what is defined as mentally -blam!-ed up. Realistically? Why would the training have killed them? They grew up with that training. Training not even ODST´s were taking when they joined up. The only way the SIV´s are more practical is that they don´t need to be trained to be effective, which cuts the process in half at cost of quality of the soldier itself. But you know, the war is over. Trained veterans will eventually run out (of the skill the war with the Covenant gave). Then what? The SIV´s will have to start training soldiers themselves and you´ll go back to the same problem, although not same amount of years. Training soldiers from childhood is more effective for the augmentations and makes them more effective. There is no questioning that. It´s the moral dillemas that bother people, but of course, how hypocritical of ONI to hate on Halsey for the SII´s while look at the things ONI has done all thoughout the war and especially now post-war.

[quote]They somehow had the money for it, because you know, stashes of infinite money is great to have handy.[/quote] Because plot. [quote]Spartan II´s are not mentally -blam!-ed up. They may have sociopathic tendencies, but is all. [/quote] "They're only sociopaths. There's nothing wrong with them." Yeah, sure. [quote]Being a sociopath because of your circumstances doesn´t make you mentally -blam!-ed up.[/quote] Sociopathy is a mental disorder. Hence, they are mentally f*cked up. Continuously fighting and going in cryo for most of your life would do that to you. [quote]Realistically? Why would the training have killed them?[/quote] I didn't say it would kill them, I said it would ruin their bodies. There's only so much stress the human body can take before it shuts down. If they're doing military training meant for adults as children, they'll ruin their bones and muscles. They wouldn't become supersoldiers, they'd become [i]cripples[/i]. [quote]Training not even ODST´s were taking when they joined up.[/quote] The ODSTs received harsher training than the IIs. [quote]The only way the SIV´s are more practical is that they don´t need to be trained to be effective, which cuts the process in half at cost of quality of the soldier itself. But you know, the war is over. Trained veterans will eventually run out (of the skill the war with the Covenant gave). Then what? The SIV´s will have to start training soldiers themselves and you´ll go back to the same problem, although not same amount of years.[/quote] They weren't designed for the long-term, they were designed for recent events after the war, in case the sangheili came back, or another insurrection took place. As for training, you can't deny veterans of warfare would make better teachers for new Spartans than anybody else. [quote]Training soldiers from childhood is more effective for the augmentations and makes them more effective.[/quote] Sure, if by "effective" you mean "crippled sociopaths". [quote]There is no questioning that.[/quote] There's no questioning that it's a bad idea, yes. [quote]It´s the moral dillemas that bother people, but of course, how hypocritical of ONI to hate on Halsey for the SII´s while look at the things ONI has done all thoughout the war and especially now post-war.[/quote] Halsey's actions were justified only because of the Covenant's convenient appearance. She still kidnapped and butchered a bunch of children. She isn't getting excused just because her project just [i]happened[/i] to work. By comparison, most of ONI's actions can be chalked up to necessity during the war.

[quote][quote]Because plot.[/quote] Because shit plot, you mean. Plot hole the size of the Orion Arm. [quote]Sociopathy is a mental disorder. Hence, they are mentally f*cked up. Continuously fighting and going in cryo for most of your life would do that to you.[/quote] It just means they tend to keep more to themselves and to those alike them. That doesn´t mean they are mentally -blam!-ed up. They can interact with others outside their group if they have to with no problems. That is not being mentally -blam!-ed up. So you´re saying people with ADD are also mentally -blam!-ed up? [quote]I didn't say it would kill them, I said it would ruin their bodies. There's only so much stress the human body can take before it shuts down. If they're doing military training meant for adults as children, they'll ruin their bones and muscles. They wouldn't become supersoldiers, they'd become [i]cripples[/i].[/quote] Advances in medical treatment. [quote]The ODSTs received harsher training than the IIs.[/quote] LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL [quote]They weren't designed for the long-term, they were designed for recent events after the war, in case the sangheili came back, or another insurrection took place. As for training, you can't deny veterans of warfare would make better teachers for new Spartans than anybody else.[/quote] Of course they were designed for the mid-to-long run. They wouldn´t be putting in that kind of money and advancements were it not. Spartan III´s were for the short run, and look at the differences. And of course they´d make great teachers. But would they really make better teachers than other Spartans or people who have trained Spartans? [quote]Sure, if by "effective" you mean "crippled sociopaths".[/quote] i seriously don´t understand why I keep arguing with you when you bring up bullshit when you have nothing better to say or to counter what I said. [quote]Halsey's actions were justified only because of the Covenant's convenient appearance. She still kidnapped and butchered a bunch of children. She isn't getting excused just because her project just [i]happened[/i] to work.[/quote] Really? Then what is this witch-hunt that ONI has started against her? Done by the same people that helped her do the project? It´s bullshit. The backround of the Spartan II project was getting out and they used Halsey as a scapegoat. She didn´t butcher the children. Nearly all of them wanted to become Spartan´s, even knowing the risks of dying or becoming crippled.

[quote]Because shit plot, you mean. Plot hole the size of the Orion Arm.[/quote] Yep. Still counts though. [quote]It just means they tend to keep more to themselves and to those alike them.[/quote] And can't socialize, and can't see people as anything more than allies, and can never go back to society, and can't see situations from an emotional point of view (John and Kurt notwithstanding)... [quote]Advances in medical treatment.[/quote] Would only waste resources that could have been better spent on things that don't involve ruining lives and getting children killed. [quote]LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL[/quote] You have an odd sense of humor. [quote]Of course they were designed for the mid-to-long run. They wouldn´t be putting in that kind of money and advancements were it not. Spartan III´s were for the short run, and look at the differences.[/quote] So were the IIs. They were intended to end the insurrection by assassinating key leaders. They just happened to be equally good at killing Covenant. [quote]And of course they´d make great teachers. But would they really make better teachers than other Spartans or people who have trained Spartans?[/quote] Which is Mendez or somebody similar would also be sent down. [quote]i seriously don´t understand why I keep arguing with you when you bring up bullshit when you have nothing better to say or to counter what I said.[/quote] Because "LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL" is any different. [quote]Really? Then what is this witch-hunt that ONI has started against her? Done by the same people that helped her do the project?[/quote] They funded it because it was necessary at the time. It isn't anymore, and now Halsey will have to face up to her crimes. [quote]Nearly all of them wanted to become Spartan´s, even knowing the risks of dying or becoming crippled.[/quote] Of course they did. They were children. They didn't understand the full situation until it was too late for them to get out. They never had a choice to begin with, and they were constantly being told about how "special" and "important" they were. If course they thought it was cool.

Christ, don't make him have to find sources against the ODST thing. That's mind-bogglingly untrue, don't make him have to prove it. [quote]They funded it because it was necessary at the time. It isn't anymore, and now Halsey will have to face up to her crimes.[/quote] If it was necessary at the time, I'd call it justified. Rather horrible, but justified. Say she does deserve to get tried. What about all the others? She wasn't the only one who was part of the Spartan-II program, she wasn't even the only essential one, though that list is shorter. Mendez willingly trained them, and Parangosky authorized it. If Halsey deserves to pay, then they most certainly do as well.

[quote]Christ, don't make him have to find sources against the ODST thing. That's mind-bogglingly untrue, don't make him have to prove it.[/quote] They're the best of the best of the best in the UNSC, the absolute elite without being superhuman. They got the most difficult training possible without actually killing them. Since the Spartans were children at the time, and thus have much lower stress tolerance, it can be assumed that their training was lighter, but still intense for their age. [quote]If it was necessary at the time, I'd call it justified.[/quote] But it isn't necessary [i]now[/i], so now it isn't justified, and Halsey has to pay for what she's done. Murder in the name of the "greater good" is still murder. [quote]Rather horrible, but justified. Say she does deserve to get tried. What about all the others? She wasn't the only one who was part of the Spartan-II program, she wasn't even the only essential one, though that list is shorter. Mendez willingly trained them, and Parangosky authorized it. If Halsey deserves to pay, then they most certainly do as well.[/quote] Yeah, they should. Mostly Halsey, though, as she was the one who dreamed it up from the start, but yeah, I don't like how Mendez and Parangosky are suddenly treated like they were against it from the start.

[quote]They're the best of the best of the best in the UNSC, the absolute elite without being superhuman. They got the most difficult training possible without actually killing them. Since the Spartans were children at the time, and thus have much lower stress tolerance, it can be assumed that their training was lighter, but still intense for their age.[/quote] Can I get a cite on that ODST training? It would seem Halopedia doesn't have anything on the subject, but I seem to recall hearing that they were actually recruited out of the regular military. [quote]But it isn't necessary [i]now[/i], so now it isn't justified, and Halsey has to pay for what she's done. Murder in the name of the "greater good" is still murder.[/quote] So she took justifiably extreme measures to solve an extreme problem, and now that the problem is gone the decisions are bad now? I don't see the reasoning here. The decision was made during that extreme time, by your reasoning pretty much every war ever fought isn't justified since those wars are over. Are you just explaining poorly?

[quote]Can I get a cite on that ODST training? It would seem Halopedia doesn't have anything on the subject, but I seem to recall hearing that they were actually recruited out of the regular military.[/quote] The short story "Dirt" gave some insight on ODST training. Apparently it made CMA training (and, presumably, regular marine training) seem like a cakewalk by comparison. And military training is [i]never[/i] easy. Aside from that, all we really have is the word that ODSTs are the greatest regular human soldiers the UNSC has, with extremely brutal training, the best tech available, and a pod that they fall from space in. Slap some augmentations and MJOLNIR on them, and they'd be Spartans. [quote]So she took justifiably extreme measures to solve an extreme problem, and now that the problem is gone the decisions are bad now? I don't see the reasoning here. The decision was made during that extreme time, by your reasoning pretty much every war ever fought isn't justified since those wars are over. Are you just explaining poorly?[/quote] Halsey made the Spartan-IIs to help combat the insurrection, but having good intentions doesn't justify what she did. She still killed a bunch of children for her pet project. The fact that she wanted to help humanity doesn't miraculously bring them back or nullify her crime. he still has to own up to it. Besides, it was sheer luck any of them survived the augmentations and MJOLNIR. What if they all had died? What was Halsey going to do then? Say "oops, that was unexpected" and go kidnap more children to try again?

I'd say that the Spartans are still probably more skilled than the ODSTs. Handpicked as smarter and stronger than the rest of humanity, trained from childhood for years; ODSTs are good, but regular training (i.e., not being trained for years from childhood) just can't match up with spartans. As for Halsey, it wasn't just some pet project. Every prediction showed that just about the only way things could end with the Insurrection without some major response was pretty much the collapse of the UNSC, civilization falling apart. Halsey hated what she was doing, but it was done because it had to be done. What are dozens of children out of billions of people? As for the augmentations.... yeah, pretty much no way its as low a chance as you say, considering about half survived. It was a high risk for the individual, but it was very likely a good batch would survive. And if for some reason they all died, well, the project would probably just be shut down. That'd be a definite failure, and there wouldn't be much point in spending another seven years or so trying it again to see if they get lucky with the augmentations.

[quote]not being trained for years from childhood[/quote] Why do people think this is a good idea? Training from childhood kills your body. It wouldn't make them more effective soldiers. Besides, they only trained for eight years in basic military combat, history of warfare, things like that. The ODSTs know all of that too. [quote]As for the augmentations.... yeah, pretty much no way its as low a chance as you say, considering about half survived.[/quote] But what if they hadn't? [quote]That'd be a definite failure, and there wouldn't be much point in spending another seven years or so trying it again to see if they get lucky with the augmentations.[/quote] Exactly. There was only a small chance any of them would have lived. [i]Sheer luck[/i]. It just [i]happened[/i] to come out semi-successful, so ONI reaped the benefits and ignored the drawbacks until the IIs weren't needed, then they dropped the hammer on Halsey because she still kidnapped children, illegally cloned them so they'd have a good cover story, and then got half of them killed. There's a [i]reason[/i] the IIIs were all war orphans, willing to fight, and the IVs are an all-volunteer outfit. So they wouldn't have to pull any of that shit just to get more mechanical soldiers out on the battlefield.

[i]Oh come on.[/i] Half of them surviving is [i]luck?[/i] If the odds were as low as you say they are, [i]then why did half of them survive?[/i] Surely you can see that if what you say is true then the odds of that many surviving is absurd. If the odds of it working were that low then they never would've greenlit the thing in the first place. As for training from childhood: I couldn't speak on the physiological hurdles, but training them from that young gives them a unique advantage. [i]They were made to fight. Designed.[/i] Taught specifically to do it. Like you said earlier, it made them sociopathic, but their minds are built around combat. That said, definitely not a fan of the kidnapping part, but it has its advantages. I probably would've tried to find another option, but I can see why they did it.

[quote]Oh come on. Half of them surviving is luck?[/quote] They had an equal chance of dying. Yes, it was luck. [quote]If the odds were as low as you say they are, then why did half of them survive?[/quote] Statistical probability. And because if they all died there wouldn't have been a plot. [quote]As for training from childhood: I couldn't speak on the physiological hurdles, but training them from that young gives them a unique advantage. They were made to fight. Designed.[/quote] No, they weren't. They were made to have normal lives like every other human. But ONI had other ideas. They turned the children into weapons. Without ONI, they'd be normal people with happy lives and families. [quote]Like you said earlier, it made them sociopathic, but their minds are built around combat.[/quote] Which is exactly [i]why[/i] they're sociopathic. Human being at not [i]supposed[/i] to have their minds built around combat. [i]That's not normal[/i]. [quote]That said, definitely not a fan of the kidnapping part, but it has its advantages. I probably would've tried to find another option, but I can see why they did it.[/quote] Oh yes, it was necessary. Doesn't excuse it, though.

Alright, we seem to be agreeing on the facts but approaching them differently. I'm saying the choices were justified, and you're saying you don't approve of that grey morality. Would you say this is an accurate assessment?

Yes, I would. The way I see it, committing crimes for the benefit of the many is justified in the short term, but once the problem at hand is resolved, the crimes committed for good reasons are still crimes that must be paid for.

I think the logic used in that is flawed. They did it because they had to, why do they need to be punished for it?

Because a crime is still a crime. They still kidnapped children and killed half of them. It was necessary at the time, so repercussions can be temporarily set aside, but at the end of the day they still did it.