Oh, so by that logic neither are Spartans? Okay, lets put a SIV up against a SIII or SII both without armor. See who wins there. When I mean they aren´t true Spartan´s it´s because they haven´t been trained since childhood for war. I don´t even need to continue expanding on this front because it´s pretty self explaining. All that information is brand new and most of it doesn´t matter. Faster clotting, new pancreas, intestinal bacteria, breathing methane are pretty much irrelevant. Advances in technology, that at the same time don´t make them better or worse than SIII´s or SII´s. The others are what the other Spartan´s have and/or slightly improved versions of the augmentation. That doesn´t mean that it beats having had the augmentations all your life and your body as perfectly adapted to them. I never said in order to be a Spartan the augmentations need to kill the majority that undergo it. Don´t put words in my mouth. And Spartan 3´s not being Spartan´s because most of them died is utterly irrelevant and bullshit argument on your part. They were made for suicide missions that nobody else could handle. The only reason they died is because they were outnumbered 1 to a couple thousands or because they got cut off from extraction and fought for days against overwhelming forces.

[quote]Oh, so by that logic neither are Spartans? Okay, lets put a SIV up against a SIII or SII both without armor. See who wins there.[/quote] Yes, they lose in specific circumstances after you take away their main advantage. Okay, I can play this game too. Try putting the three or four remaining IIs up against the hundreds of IVs and see who wins. Yeah, the IIs get f*cked. [quote]When I mean they aren´t true Spartan´s it´s because they haven´t been trained since childhood for war.[/quote] I think you mean they're not like the other Spartans, not that they aren't Spartans period. It's not a requirement, nor was it ever stated to be a requirement. [quote]All that information is brand new and most of it doesn´t matter. Faster clotting, new pancreas, intestinal bacteria, breathing methane are pretty much irrelevant.[/quote] Healing faster, having a better metabolism, and surviving in an environment a II or III couldn't are all irrelevant? Right. [quote]Advances in technology, that at the same time don´t make them better or worse than SIII´s or SII´s. The others are what the other Spartan´s have and/or slightly improved versions of the augmentation. That doesn´t mean that it beats having had the augmentations all your life and your body as perfectly adapted to them.[/quote] Doesn't have to be. The IIs were just a prototype - very good at what they do, but simply too few to make any real difference. The IIIs improved on the IIs - they could be mass produced, but morality and ethics came into question, which is why they were discontinued. The IVs are exactly what the Spartan program was meant to be - supersoldiers that are cheap, expendable, easily mass-produced, and most of all [i]volunteers[/i], so there's no question of ethics. They can quickly and easily be made, outfitted, and fielded, far faster and better than the IIs ever could. How they compare individually is irrelevant, as they were never meant to be individually "better" than the IIs. As long as they're superior to [i]the enemy[/i] and can be easily replaced, everything is fine and dandy for the UNSC. [quote]And Spartan 3´s not being Spartan´s because most of them died is utterly irrelevant and bullshit argument on your part. They were made for suicide missions that nobody else could handle.[/quote] And the IVs were made to be cheap, expendable supersoldiers that have to moral strings attached. That's what they were made for. The fact that they got fewer augmentations is irrelevant.

Are you really as immature to say that it´s the same to take away MJOLNIR from both as putting a couple up against hundreds? Are you that retarded? Spartans all throughout history have been trained since childhood in the art and knowledge of war. Now come the SIV´s and they are considered Spartan´s because they are half of what the others were. Surviving an hour is pretty worthless. If you´re a Spartan and you´re caught in the situation where your MJOLNIR is breached and can´t extract asap, then there is no point in it. I´m not saying the other advantages are totally useless, they are good, but they are passive attributes meant to work joint with MJOLNIR. Who says the SIV´s were meant to be cheap and expendable? They are not disposable heroes since the start as the SIII´s were that would not recieve recognition for their actions. The fact that they have MJOLNIR alone makes them 100x more important to the UNSC in general than the SIII´s.

[quote]Spartans all throughout history have been trained since childhood in the art and knowledge of war.[/quote] You do know that the Spartans in Halo aren't actual Spartans, right? They're not part of the historical Spartans. It's retarded to place them in the same group, just because their training was similar and they were named after the historical culture. [quote]Surviving an hour is pretty worthless[/quote] In a battle, an hour is an eternity. And hey, it's not like the IIs will surviving that long. Or more than a minute or two. [quote]If you´re a Spartan and you´re caught in the situation where your MJOLNIR is breached and can´t extract asap, then there is no point in it.[/quote] Yes, if you're in a very specific situation, it is worthless. [quote]Who says the SIV´s were meant to be cheap and expendable?[/quote] Given how easily they can be made, and how quickly they can be replaced, treating them as expendable soldiers rather than a commodity would be the most useful action. [quote]The fact that they have MJOLNIR alone makes them 100x more important to the UNSC in general than the SIII´s.[/quote] And yet you still say they're not Spartans.

I know they aren´t the same thing, but they are both the same in many aspects. Both taken as childs to be trained in the arts of war, both the best soldiers humanity has to offer at their given time. They are the modern equivalent of ancient Spartans. In that type of situation? You´d be surprised. Just look at what the Spartan III´s managed. Survived for weeks fighting, completely cut off and out numbered. And without MJOLNIR. SII´s would have probably lasted the same, or have had better support for simple fact that they were SII´s. So then nobody said that? That´s just you´re opinion. That they are expendable. I don´t see 300 SIV´s coming out, batch after batch, as the SIII´s were. They are getting MJOLNIR. That expense alone means they are not expendable. Of course they are Spartans. The UNSC and 343 will count them as, but by their merits and physical makeup compared to previous Spartan generations, they fall short of what is expected. I would put them in a space between ODST´s and Spartan´s. They are a mix of the two.

[quote]I know they aren´t the same thing, but they are both the same in many aspects.[/quote] Doesn't matter. They're still just Spartan in name only. [quote]In that type of situation? You´d be surprised. Just look at what the Spartan III´s managed. Survived for weeks fighting, completely cut off and out numbered. And without MJOLNIR. SII´s would have probably lasted the same, or have had better support for simple fact that they were SII´s.[/quote] Doubt it. A few hundred IIIs > every II. If the IIIs were all wiped out in a given conflict, the IIs would have died out even quicker. [quote]So then nobody said that? That´s just you´re opinion. That they are expendable. I don´t see 300 SIV´s coming out, batch after batch, as the SIII´s were. They are getting MJOLNIR. That expense alone means they are not expendable.[/quote] They can be produced more quickly than the IIIs, actually. But yeah, the MJOLNIR is the important part, the part that prevents them from being fully mass-produced. [quote]Of course they are Spartans. The UNSC and 343 will count them as, but by their merits and physical makeup compared to previous Spartan generations, they fall short of what is expected. I would put them in a space between ODST´s and Spartan´s. They are a mix of the two.[/quote] No, they're fully within the range of the other Spartans. The IIs were the "proof of concept" to quote Ackerson, the blueprint. The IIIs were the prototypes for the finished product. The IVs [i]are[/i] the finished product, the real thing. Supersoldiers that can be easily produced and replaced, but still extremely effective and superior to both their allies and their enemies. They don't require nearly as much training, because they're already veterans of the war, and they don't require the same kind of indoctrination the IIs and IIIs had to suffer through. True, they're not as singularly powerful as the IIs, but they were never meant to be singularly effective. They were meant to operate in squads. The IIs were meant to operate in squads as well, but there were simply too few of them to be truly effective. The greatest soldiers humanity had, and there were only around 30 of them. The IIIs and IVs fixed that, though the IIIs were obviously shut down because of morality issues. There's hundreds of them, enough of them to make lasting progress over multiple battlefields at once. They can be spread across UNSC-controlled space and still maintain their advantage of numbers, something the IIs could not do. And they're still entirely capable of going through dozens of enemies at once on their own, just like the IIs could. So, when it all comes down, the IVs are much more practical than the IIs. Not as individually powerful, but individuals don't win wars.

Lol how were the SIII´s shut down because of morality issues? They were orphans. They weren´t taken from their parents in the middle of the night. SIII´s were completely designed to combat in squads to compensate for SPI they used. I have no doubt they could easily out do a Spartan IV squad on equal terms of equipment. They are only more practical because they have more numbers. Because the UNSC, despite nearly having lost the war and loosing a great majority of it´s central colonies, some how has the money to fund the SIV project and Infinity, among countless other operations and projects. To begin with, logically the SIV´s shouldn´t even be able to exist nearly exactly post-war. Somehow the UNSC has the money for all that AND for reconstruction efforts and rearming. Don´t forget there was meant to be more Spartan II´s, but there were left at 30 because Halsey didn´t find any other suitable candidates to the project and eventually the funds were diverted to other projects (most likely the SIII´s) Gen 2 MJOLNIR is more easily mass produced than Gen 1 MJOLNIR. Don´t believe me? How many Spartan IV´s are there? Exactly. It´s more advanced in design which makes it cheaper and easier to produce. SIV´s are ´mass produced´ because they aren´t trained for years to become Spartans. They are simply hand picked volunteers that can be augmentated almost inmediately and much easier to replace, but taht comes at the cost that they are less effective individually. If anything, the SIV´s are SIII´s 2.0

They were named Spartans by Doctor Halsey because of there resemblance to the Ancient Spartans that fought in the battle of Battle of Thermopylae, there being roughly around 300 cadets being trained from child birth. They had no dreams or aspirations, All they could imagine was their lives as soldiers and serving there people. The augmentation doesn't make a Spartan, all those that died on the table were already Spartans, they were already a level above any ODST. You see the difference between one of these new super troopers and a Spartan is that the Spartan has only ever known war, they live and breathe it. When these Super Troopers were studying the Battle of Cannae for the first time, the Cadets of a Spartan Programme would already be veterans qualified to command the entire UNSC (Some even ONI). I would never argue that your Super Troopers are not in fact Super Soldiers but I would always stand by the fact that they could never be Spartans. In all respects they dishonour a namesake that the Spartan IIs and IIIs held high even in the face of unbeatable odds.

They are Spartans by virtue of being superior in combat and symbols of hope. All of them are veterans of the Covenant War who survived without armor or drugs or anything like that. By comparison, the IIs and IIIs are children who went through hellish training, nearly killed by experimental steroids, and given armor so they can go play soldier.

Strip out the steroids and you actually have what a Spartan is named after, a group of soldiers than were put through hellish training since they were kids so that they could be the best soldiers. What you described originally however is just a veteran, not a Spartan. Giving them augmentations and new armour doesn't change the fact they are not Spartans, it just means they are veterans turned into super soldiers. They do not fit the name Spartan, the name was given to the SIIs in reference to there simultaneities to the ancient Spartans of Earth, the SIIIs matched that so I didn't mind calling them such. These new super troopers don't fit the namesake... There Orion 2.0, not the next Spartans (and I'd hope to god that ONI never makes more true Spartans, it's unethical).

[quote]Strip out the steroids and you actually have what a Spartan is named after, a group of soldiers than were put through hellish training since they were kids so that they could be the best soldiers.[/quote] Actually they were named Spartans because the historical Spartans are recognized as being the greatest soldiers of their time, just like how the UNSC's Spartans are the greatest soldiers of their time. [quote]What you described originally however is just a veteran, not a Spartan. Giving them augmentations and new armour doesn't change the fact they are not Spartans, it just means they are veterans turned into super soldiers. [/quote] Except they were created under the Spartan program. They were intended to be the next generation of Spartans. Thus, they are Spartans whether you like it or not. [quote]They do not fit the name Spartan,[/quote] Neither do the IIs and IIIs. None of them were born in Sparta, hence, they are not actual Spartans. [quote]the name was given to the SIIs in reference to there simultaneities to the ancient Spartans of Earth,[/quote] The name was given to the IIs because they needed a name that fit. It wasn't about the similarity. Halsey had a bunch of possible names written down and any one of them would have fit. [quote]the SIIIs matched that so I didn't mind calling them such. These new super troopers don't fit the namesake...[/quote] Neither do the IIs or IIIs. [quote]There Orion 2.0,[/quote] No, Orion 2.0 was the Spartan-II project, seeing as how Orion was the Spartan-I project. [quote]not the next Spartans[/quote] Except they are, and they're referred to as such. [quote](and I'd hope to god that ONI never makes more true Spartans, it's unethical).[/quote] They never made "true" Spartans. None of them originated in Sparta.

Nope, either way you want to spin it... Out of all the names Halsey had written down, she specificity picked them because of being trained from childhood and there being a similar battle to that famous battle. The best your going to get out of me is to call these guys super troopers because they are not Spartans.

Well then, you're objectively wrong, and if the [u]Spartan[/u]-IVs are not Spartans, then I guess the IIs and IIIs aren't Spartans either.

The name Spartan Project was chosen by the project lead Doctor Halsey in reference to the similarities between her candidates and the Spartans of Sparta. These references were to the amount of candidates being close to the amount of Spartans in the Battle of Thermopylae and in reference to the fact that both groups of warriors were to be trained from childhood to know nothing but war. What's more the Spartan III's were by her original considerations wannabe Spartans that could not match up to her original batch because of there genetic code not being as perfect as she had intended for the best warriors humanity had to offer. However she came to know them as Spartans seeing that Kurt had trained them from childhood just as she had done for her Spartans. The knew batch of Super Troopers however she does not see as Spartans, she talked to them with disgust and generally believes them to be lower that the older classes. However don't think for a second she is blinded by bios as she does see the potential of certain recruits as seen in Spartan Ops. These Super Troopers that she takes a shining to would have made good Spartans if they actually trained like a Spartan should be. Now in all honesty, these Super Troopers would be better suited to the name of Knight or something along those lines. A soldier that earned honour in battle and was awarded with lands and titled, allowing him to have the best gear and to be generally thought of as higher than the average foot soldier. And when you look at it objectively a Spartan who earned the name by going through the childhood training would be of a higher standard than a Marine who joint the forces half way through there waking life span. By the time the Marine is learning of the Second Punic war the generation II and III Spartans would have tried and tested there own strategies in actual combat to the point of clockwork. The Marines could try there best but no matter how augmented they get, they have still spend the best part of there life learning a verity of skills that offer no help in war were as the II and IIIs have only ever known battle. These Super Troopers are not Spartans, they are the result of a lazy studio trying to put there own mark on a franchise, desperately trying to scratch away the credibility of prior characters and lore. It's demonstrated by there willingness to pull in a writer known to enrage fans when it comes to the expanding universe to write a whole series about a game she has never played. Which is a shame because if they had taken the time to think about things, they could have thought of a interesting storyline involving these new Super Troopers who they are the physical match of but not a match for sheer military tact. These new Super Troopers are not Spartans objectively, they are however the new generations of Spartans Irrationally created by a studio that is managing to drive a much beloved franchise even further into the ground after it faltered in the hands of its creators.

[quote]The name Spartan Project was chosen by the project lead Doctor Halsey in reference to the similarities between her candidates and the Spartans of Sparta. These references were to the amount of candidates being close to the amount of Spartans in the Battle of Thermopylae and in reference to the fact that both groups of warriors were to be trained from childhood to know nothing but war.[/quote] Actually no, the Spartans trained [i]primarily[/i] for war, but it was mostly just for keeping their slaves in line because the slaves outnumbered the citizens by a good deal, and not to be the biggest badasses alive (which they actually weren't). And war is not [i]all[/i] they knew anyway. Take some history classes. Also, the IIs only trained for eight years. Age six to fourteen. It's not like they've trained their whole lives for war or anything. [quote]What's more the Spartan III's were by her original considerations wannabe Spartans that could not match up to her original batch because of there genetic code not being as perfect as she had intended for the best warriors humanity had to offer. However she came to know them as Spartans seeing that Kurt had trained them from childhood just as she had done for her Spartans.[/quote] They're Spartans because that's what ONI decided they were. [quote]The knew batch of Super Troopers however she does not see as Spartans, she talked to them with disgust and generally believes them to be lower that the older classes. However don't think for a second she is blinded by bios as she does see the potential of certain recruits as seen in Spartan Ops. These Super Troopers that she takes a shining to would have made good Spartans if they actually trained like a Spartan should be.[/quote] What Halsey thinks of them is irrelevant. She's not a part of the Spartan program anymore. And besides, training from childhood is a terrible idea, as it kills your body when you're older, resulting in ineffective soldiers. So, yeah. Enjoy your physically handicapped prototype Spartans, bro. [quote]Now in all honesty, these Super Troopers would be better suited to the name of Knight or something along those lines[/quote] But they're not. They're Spartans. End of. [quote]And when you look at it objectively a Spartan who earned the name by going through the childhood training[/quote] Eight years. Not that impressive. [quote]would be of a higher standard than a Marine who joint the forces half way through there waking life span.[/quote] The IVs are all veterans who survived the war without powered armor or augmentations. They've more than earned the moniker, as opposed to those kids who got kidnapped and forced to fight. The IVs are [i]volunteers[/i]. They [i]chose[/i] to fight, and put their lives on the line. [quote]By the time the Marine is learning of the Second Punic war the generation II and III Spartans would have tried and tested there own strategies in actual combat to the point of clockwork.[/quote] Not really. The IIs learned their history over the course of eight years. [quote]The Marines could try there best but no matter how augmented they get, they have still spend the best part of there life learning a verity of skills that offer no help in war were as the II and IIIs have only ever known battle.[/quote] Except for the part where they spend most of their lives in cryo. So, yeah, not exactly a life filled with battle. [quote]These Super Troopers are not Spartans,[/quote] 343 says otherwise. [quote]they are the result of a lazy studio trying to put there own mark on a franchise, desperately trying to scratch away the credibility of prior characters and lore.[/quote] Not really, no. I don't like 343 any more than anybody else, but now you're just making shit up to try and demonize them. [quote]It's demonstrated by there willingness to pull in a writer known to enrage fans when it comes to the expanding universe to write a whole series about a game she has never played.[/quote] Traviss didn't think up the IVs. 343 gave her the basic idea of the story they paid her to write, and she wrote it. [quote]Which is a shame because if they had taken the time to think about things, they could have thought of a interesting storyline involving these new Super Troopers who they are the physical match of but not a match for sheer military tact.[/quote] They did, it's called Spartan Ops. [quote]These new Super Troopers are not Spartans objectively,[/quote] Except they are. [quote]they are however the new generations of Spartans Irrationally created by a studio that is managing to drive a much beloved franchise even further into the ground after it faltered in the hands of its creators.[/quote] And now you're just being silly.

They've completed eight years of training four years before any other marines would have enlisted, they would be experienced personnel by the time any normal person signs up for the UNSC. By the time the Marines get into there first stint of combat they would be standing against the most elite veterans the UNSC had to offer, augmented or not. Oh and yes War was not all they knew but everything they knew was taught for the explicit purpose of making them operational in all aspects that could arise. Things such as knowing other languages (which Jorge demonstrated), having a high level of Mathematica skills and such could all be extremely useful when functioning across multiple planets in a highly advanced universe. They didn't however teach them skills they would not use outside of there stint at the UNSC, home economic classes didn't go much past cooking the creature you just hunted down. On the topic education as well, when I mentioned the marines would be learning about the Second Punic War when the Spartans are veterans I was making reference to the fact the Marines that make it to officers would just be learning about the tactics of Hannibal in that war when the Spartans had learned, practiced and exspanded on that during there 8 years of training as children! Oh and handicapped because of being pushed to there limits as children, that can potentially happen yes. But in a world were it has been demonstrated that a man can be diagnosed and treated for cancer automatic by a machine, I would be surprised if they couldn't treat such side effects of neuter them all together. The Spartan IIIs choose to fight and even though the Spartan II's didn't choose to fight, it doesn't hamper there comabt efficiny as it's all they know how to do. Oh and reread you post, some of your comments don't even match the quote your talking about, for instance you mention cryo sleep being a reason for a life not spend in battle when I'm talking about how marines have spend a large portion of there life learning skills they can not apply to battle. You might want to go to bed like I'm about to, have sweet dreams about your super troopers. If they're real cool, we might even let them dress up like the actual Spartans of the UNSC. :<