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11/30/2012 2:44:15 AM
71
Competitive Players should design MP
It's just the truth
Look at Halo 4
The core is excellent but it is covered with a dog pile of casual -blam!- that just make it bad
Big maps
Instant Respawn
Care Packages
DMR breaks almost every BTB map
Don't get me wrong
Halo 4 is 10000x better than Reach, but yo, this game can be the Greatest of all time if some competitive player like Bravo was to give the settings for default
Halo 2 was competitive and had a high population
Halo 3 was somewhat competitive and had a high population
Halo Reach was a broken game designed for casuals and had an OK Population
Halo 4 is a good game covered with casual -blam!- and is declining pretty fast in population
Competitive and Balanced Games bring in more people
343, YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS
The reason CoD is always on the top is because it is always the same
343, you are not going to get new players by putting stupid gimmicks in Halo.....
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lolno
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TehWarMoose Then we'd end up with an incredibly unbalanced, contradictory, and effectively unplayable piece of crap. Designing a game that's actually enjoyable is a lot harder than making a list of complaints and pushing a magic button.[/quote]This. Balance is the most effective way to make a game fun. Too much balance and the game becomes instant hit, where every weapon counters every weapon, making the game who saw who first, or who has better ping (or noone ever kills anyone). Make it too unbalanced, and it becomes unfun and first to the unbalanced weapons wins. Make it to competitive and you make the skill curve go off the chart, and lock people without a hope of advancing (Halo 2 suffered this, but only because of cheaters at higher ranks). Make it too casual, and you get Mario Kart.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Nephilim713 No they should not. Developers should develop the multiplayer.[/quote] Developers don't know everything about playing the game. [Edited on 11.29.2012 8:56 PM PST]
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No they should not. Developers should develop the multiplayer.
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"Halo 4 is 10000x better than Reach" I greatly disagree ,reach was far better executed and while H4 has some good elements as it is now it is a complete mess with so many issues it's not even funny. The chances of Halo 4 surpassing the previous entries is so unbelievably low it is painful,that's not to say it can't.It's just unlikely. If they got rid of the drops,replaces the Mantis with a respectable vehicle ,added proper weapon spawning on maps that don't suck then balanced the weapons,then it might be able to compete.But as it is now I'd say it is the worse of the series.
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Casual players can make fun of a lot of things in games, and in which Halo 4 supplies them with that (somewhat). But in terms of competitive play, Halo 4 will or has already failed for obvious reasons. I agree that a games mechanics should be build competitively, but even myself (a competitive player) would grow bored with it within at least a few months. You'd need something that would keep people coming back and creating newer things for the game despite it's old age. Halo 3 is a prime example for such a situation. I was hooked on it and was always determined to improve myself, and I adored having a challenge. But about half a year later I grew bored of it. I mean I still look for competition, but just not in the same game. What kept me from leaving Halo 3 was Forge. Originally I had just saw it as a map editor and had only moved around weapon spawns and such, nothing that spectacular. But then I had learnt how to create actual maps using what we were given with. Moving to 2009 Sandbox came out and that's when I had the best of experiences with Halo 3. I had joined a forging community, started making my own maps, and even Bungie started implementing Forged maps into matchmaking. I did this until Reach came out. [quote][/quote] Reach was pretty different. Instead of adoring it I hated it. But what I hated about it wasn't the improved Forging and the maps we could build with it. It was the Multiplayer and all the things wrong with it. Bloom, AA's, OP weapons, it pretty much stood in the way of making some really addicting maps. I didn't really enjoy the games mechanics itself but because of Forge and some other aspects about it I was able to stay with it until Halo 4 came out. Now that Halo 4 is out I get to see myself all the things wrong with it. Not only is it the same case with Reach, but now there's no Forge maps or gametypes to work with. I don't even see myself playing it for a year unless they get some major work done on it.
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Didn't 343 do this to a degree? They let competitive tryhards in MLG playtest their MP and give their feedback for balance changes and stuff.
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OP. that would make too much sense if competitive players designed mp. They would never do that. The game would be too perfect and people wouldn't have anything to complain about. We just don't live in a world where logical sense like yours exists.
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I want interactive maps.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DatDudeBV [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NinStarRune Wasn't it helped by some of the allegedly best MLG players? And now it caters to casuals?[/quote] The game was essentially done when they were invited. And even then, people arent going to flat out say, This game is terrible. To the people who just devoted the last 2 years of their lives to making it.[/quote] They weren't going to bad mouth the game considering that their ability to make money with H4 is dependent on its reception and success.
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I agree. This game has a lot of potential. Lets just hope 343 listens
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XxMuNcHmOnKeYxX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DatDudeBV [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XxMuNcHmOnKeYxX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Just Luck Someone who played high 50s in Halo 3 or played MLG on a regular basis will know 10x more about map layouts and balance than any other person who plays the game. [/quote] They're also likely to be just as, if not more biased towards their preferences just because when people play competitively, they play to win more than anything (not saying they don't all enjoy it). [/quote] Biased towards what? A fair and balanced game where the better player always wins. Shouldnt that always happen?[/quote] Map preferences. I know some casual gamers who are just as good as competitive ones- some competitive gamers prefer smaller maps over bigger ones. Some non-competitive people like big maps.[/quote]The point is that it's much easier to turn a Steak into a Hamburger than it is to turn a Hamburger into a Steak. You build your game with strong and deep core that rewards player investment and skill, and around that strong core, you can begin to smooth things out to make the game more accessible to newer players, but you make it so that the game encourages them to invest themselves more into the game and improve their abillities. Just because a game has a strong competitive core doesn't mean it wouldn't have any big team maps, in fact, there are quite a few competitive players who have spawn camped on enough big team maps to perhaps know a thing or two about spawn placement...
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Effective Strafe It's just the truth Look at Halo 4 The core is excellent but it is covered with a dog pile of casual -blam!- that just make it bad Big maps Instant Respawn Care Packages DMR breaks almost every BTB map [/quote] I'd like bigger maps, but I agree about the instant respawns. I'm neutral toward Ordinances, and I don't think the DMR [i]breaks[/i] every BTB map.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Just Luck [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Gaara444 This. OP, if you let only the competitive community design the maps, we're just going to get The Octagon with eight different skins. Sorry, but that sounds incredibly boring. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TehWarMoose Then we'd end up with an incredibly unbalanced, contradictory, and effectively unplayable piece of crap. Designing a game that's actually enjoyable is a lot harder than making a list of complaints and pushing a magic button. [/quote][/quote]Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Someone who played high 50s in Halo 3 or played MLG on a regular basis will know 10x more about map layouts and balance than any other person who plays the game. That doesn't mean they could design a game from scratch, but that does mean if you gave them the tools they would be able to make the most fair, balanced and competitive game type. [/quote] well, except you know, [i]the guys who made the maps for the competitive players.[/i] I've made my fair share of forge maps, and I've known a few of the guys who make those forged variants that you competitives enjoy so much. you people seem to think that just because you have played through a map that you could easily do the same, well you're wrong, the people I now whose maps have made it into the H3 playlists have said that they had gone through at least 10 different designs for each map and even then had gone through hundreds of variants in the forge itself. using an in-game object editor where everything is already built is hard enough for the pros of forging, but a full blown map editor? you'd have no chance.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XxMuNcHmOnKeYxX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DatDudeBV [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XxMuNcHmOnKeYxX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Just Luck Someone who played high 50s in Halo 3 or played MLG on a regular basis will know 10x more about map layouts and balance than any other person who plays the game. [/quote] They're also likely to be just as, if not more biased towards their preferences just because when people play competitively, they play to win more than anything (not saying they don't all enjoy it). [/quote] Biased towards what? A fair and balanced game where the better player always wins. Shouldnt that always happen?[/quote] Map preferences. I know some casual gamers who are just as good as competitive ones- some competitive gamers prefer smaller maps over bigger ones. Some non-competitive people like big maps.[/quote] I believe if there is a balance like halo 3 there should be no problem. Competetive players have been left in the dust the last two games.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XxMuNcHmOnKeYxX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DatDudeBV [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XxMuNcHmOnKeYxX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Just Luck Someone who played high 50s in Halo 3 or played MLG on a regular basis will know 10x more about map layouts and balance than any other person who plays the game. [/quote] They're also likely to be just as, if not more biased towards their preferences just because when people play competitively, they play to win more than anything (not saying they don't all enjoy it). [/quote] Biased towards what? A fair and balanced game where the better player always wins. Shouldnt that always happen?[/quote] Map preferences. I know some casual gamers who are just as good as competitive ones- some competitive gamers prefer smaller maps over bigger ones. Some non-competitive people like big maps.[/quote] I prefer big maps. Ive played competitive BTB for years now. Well, until H4 come out
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Why are you telling 343 this...on bungie's site?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AK FROST [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XxMuNcHmOnKeYxX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Just Luck Someone who played high 50s in Halo 3 or played MLG on a regular basis will know 10x more about map layouts and balance than any other person who plays the game. [/quote] They're also likely to be just as, if not more biased towards their preferences just because when people play competitively, they play to win more than anything (not saying they don't all enjoy it). [/quote] Which isn't a bad thing to have a bias towards more balanced maps and gameplay. Looks at reflection and sword base.[/quote] They'll leave out the larger maps that are more so used for recreation. They'll ignore the casual player's wants.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DatDudeBV [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dtyler27106 Or we can let the people with degrees and jobs and experience do it...[/quote] Who are most likely geeks who dont have a competitive bone in their body.[/quote]If game producers need to be "competitive players" to make a competitive game, then there would hardly be any competitive games. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AK FROST [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dtyler27106 Or we can let the people with degrees and jobs and experience do it...[/quote] They do a pretty good job making a class based system made on luck. Or balanced maps like said base or powerhouse right? Red advantage much?[/quote]I literally have no idea what the hell you just said.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DatDudeBV [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XxMuNcHmOnKeYxX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Just Luck Someone who played high 50s in Halo 3 or played MLG on a regular basis will know 10x more about map layouts and balance than any other person who plays the game. [/quote] They're also likely to be just as, if not more biased towards their preferences just because when people play competitively, they play to win more than anything (not saying they don't all enjoy it). [/quote] Biased towards what? A fair and balanced game where the better player always wins. Shouldnt that always happen?[/quote] Map preferences. I know some casual gamers who are just as good as competitive ones- some competitive gamers prefer smaller maps over bigger ones. Some non-competitive people like big maps. [Edited on 11.29.2012 7:52 PM PST]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TehWarMoose Then we'd end up with an incredibly unbalanced, contradictory, and effectively unplayable piece of crap. Designing a game that's actually enjoyable is a lot harder than making a list of complaints and pushing a magic button.[/quote]Even harder is creating a deep game with quality gameplay that rewards skill. It's something everyone should be able to enjoy and it's definitely what you should shoot for when designing a multiplayer game. Please don't kid yourselves, a competitive game would not be unbalanced or contradictory.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Gaara444 Um, this is the first time I posted in this thread. I'm all for letting them make edits to already available maps. However I by no means want them to build the maps from scratch (what I mean is, let them draw out and have it created for them). I'm all for fair and balanced game play, but chances are, they're going to design the maps to be different but ultimately all play the same. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong here though, I never made it to high 50 games in Halo 3 cause I got rank locked in Lone Wolves. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Just Luck Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Someone who played high 50s in Halo 3 or played MLG on a regular basis will know 10x more about map layouts and balance than any other person who plays the game. That doesn't mean they could design a game from scratch, but that does mean if you gave them the tools they would be able to make the most fair, balanced and competitive game type. [/quote][/quote]In a way you're right though. While MLG was the most balanced gametype in Halo 3, it was by no means the most diverse. Part of that you could contribute to Halo 3's weapon sandbox being 80% useless. Hopefully when and if Halo returns to a more competitive setting, they'll be able to incorporate vehicles and have more variety in the weapons. But that will depend just as much on how the core game is designed as it will on what people will be able to tweak and do with it.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dtyler27106 Or we can let the people with degrees and jobs and experience do it...[/quote] They do a pretty good job making a class based system made on luck. Or balanced maps like said base or powerhouse right? Red advantage much?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dtyler27106 Or we can let the people with degrees and jobs and experience do it...[/quote] Who are most likely geeks who dont have a competitive bone in their body.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XxMuNcHmOnKeYxX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Just Luck Someone who played high 50s in Halo 3 or played MLG on a regular basis will know 10x more about map layouts and balance than any other person who plays the game. [/quote] They're also likely to be just as, if not more biased towards their preferences just because when people play competitively, they play to win more than anything (not saying they don't all enjoy it). [/quote] Which isn't a bad thing to have a bias towards more balanced maps and gameplay. Looks at reflection and sword base.
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Or we can let the people with degrees and jobs and experience do it...
