Carter took his helmet off, that means his shields were down and couldn't recharge Kat's shields were down when she got shot.

1) From a canon point of veiw? We have one instance in a cutscene showing your arguement. What about the needles not flying striaght through a grunts head? What about the fact that for the super-combine to work you need 3 rounds stuck into a target, not clean through. 2)No, I'm saying the whole point of Needle rounds shown throughout the entire universe is either used for AA tracking(turrets) and causing supercombines by sticking rounds in soft targets where the super-combine effect would actually be usefull. 3)Common sense is conflicting. Example: 1)A penny saved is a penny earned 2)No risk, no glory. There is this thing called supporting evidence that really helps when trying to prove something. 4)Hmmmmm, the right spot being maybe the black metal nano mesh layering. Also, I am going to point this out. The Needle round had to get through 4 things. 1)The plating on the back-top part of the helmet. To begin, this is a far denser material than what marines use, and I will confidentally say much more dense than a needle round. Even a light amount of armor would slow the projectile down considerably. 2)The back of the S-III's skull. S-IIIs as far as I'm aware of, had metal grafted onto their bones. So IF the round penatrated the helmet, then it would have stopped at the back of the skull due to lack of suffiecient velocity to go through the grafted metal 3)The front of the S-III's skull. So now it has to go through another set of metal reinforced bone structure after it has already passsed through a super-dense alloy thin layering and a skull reinforced with metal. 4)A bullet-proof visor. I'm assuming bullet proof, otherwise it would be a careless design flaw. And again, it passed through 3 metals to get there. So you are saying the needle round has enough velocity to go through all of that without even slowing down? That means if you were to shoot any soft targets, it would easily go through, bypassing one of its main features.(Just a note, it is also automatic, so its not like it is a designated sniper weapon.)

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Eldor Thug 37 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DPSniper I believe they're shouldn't be a debate about the Needle Rifle's qualities, and its ability to penetrait Kat's helmet. If you look at the weapon from a cannon point of view, you could see it was meant as a higher velocity long range weapon, and it is different from a needler. It shows this by being accurate at long ranges. Most low velocity weapons loose accuracy at good distances. Saying that just because they both shoot needles, so they aren't armor piercing is like saying that a pistol, or sub-machine gun, that shoots a 7.62x25mm round has the same quality as a sniper rifle that shoots a 7.62x54mm. They're both 7.62's, but they have very different qualities and power behind them. I don't have any proof its armor piercing, but I just use some common sense, and good grounds to base my arguments. With all of that being said, I do believe that a needle rifle would be able to penetrate at the right spot of a Spartan's Armor, which I believe it did seeing that it hit the top of her helmet. As far as I know, they don't super re-enforce the top of a helmet.[/quote] That is a good point about poorly reinforced helmets. I mean who would expect the Spartans to be fired down upon almost vertically? I just can't imagine it happening that often so I doubt the armor was really designed for that...[/quote] Besides, isn't the helmet like, the weakest part of the armor?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DPSniper I believe they're shouldn't be a debate about the Needle Rifle's qualities, and its ability to penetrait Kat's helmet. If you look at the weapon from a cannon point of view, you could see it was meant as a higher velocity long range weapon, and it is different from a needler. It shows this by being accurate at long ranges. Most low velocity weapons loose accuracy at good distances. Saying that just because they both shoot needles, so they aren't armor piercing is like saying that a pistol, or sub-machine gun, that shoots a 7.62x25mm round has the same quality as a sniper rifle that shoots a 7.62x54mm. They're both 7.62's, but they have very different qualities and power behind them. I don't have any proof its armor piercing, but I just use some common sense, and good grounds to base my arguments. With all of that being said, I do believe that a needle rifle would be able to penetrate at the right spot of a Spartan's Armor, which I believe it did seeing that it hit the top of her helmet. As far as I know, they don't super re-enforce the top of a helmet.[/quote] That is a good point about poorly reinforced helmets. I mean who would expect the Spartans to be fired down upon almost vertically? I just can't imagine it happening that often so I doubt the armor was really designed for that...

I believe they're shouldn't be a debate about the Needle Rifle's qualities, and its ability to penetrait Kat's helmet. If you look at the weapon from a cannon point of view, you could see it was meant as a higher velocity long range weapon, and it is different from a needler. It shows this by being accurate at long ranges. Most low velocity weapons loose accuracy at good distances. Saying that just because they both shoot needles, so they aren't armor piercing is like saying that a pistol, or sub-machine gun, that shoots a 7.62x25mm round has the same quality as a sniper rifle that shoots a 7.62x54mm. They're both 7.62's, but they have very different qualities and power behind them. I don't have any proof its armor piercing, but I just use some common sense, and good grounds to base my arguments. With all of that being said, I do believe that a needle rifle would be able to penetrate at the right spot of a Spartan's Armor, which I believe it did seeing that it hit the top of her helmet. As far as I know, they don't super re-enforce the top of a helmet.

The Mjolnir armor is excellent against guns such as the assault rifle, pistol, ect. John could easily handle a couple assault rifle rounds hitting it. Not sure about sniper rounds however I doubt a round in the chest against a Mjolnir wearing spartan would stop them. Plasma is another story. The UNSC armor was meant to protect against bullets and shrapnel, not extremely hot plasma. Might as well be wearing paper.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] a casual banana No shields+a projectile flying at the speed of sound the size of your forearm to the head = death Energy swords can cut through just about anything... And Carter... Well, he flew into a nuclear fission reactor basically.[/quote] Actually, we don't even know if the Neddle Rifle is super-sonic. It could have a muzzel velocity of 150m/s and we wouldn't know. We also don't know the density of the Needle rounds. I can confidently say that MJOLNIR plating is more dense.

HAY can you guys help me out by going to http://thelivegenerator.com/?r=757742 it would really help me

No shields+a projectile flying at the speed of sound the size of your forearm to the head = death Energy swords can cut through just about anything... And Carter... Well, he flew into a nuclear fission reactor basically.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Makko Mace [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] superiorarsenal [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Gamer Whale [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE Wouldn't the needle rifle's needles act as bullets though, seeing how it can propel a needle, say, almost as far as the DMR? (using an example only) in the same speed?[/quote]This is what I think too, Needle rifle =/= Needler. Similar ammo, but not exactly the same. (Or it's about how the weapon works, and ammo is the same. We haven't seen needler mags since Halo 1.)[/quote] They still don't show ANY AP qualities. If a needle rifle round an go clean through a MJOLNIR Mark V helmet, then it would pass straight through a grunt's entire body. What purpose would the super-combine feature serve if it did that? The whole design of Needle-based Covenant weaponry is to fire hard and sharp needles into soft targets. When the needle explodes it causes a lot of damage to soft tissue. If the needle rifle had AP qualities it would pass through soft materials, going against its purpose. It would also not be sticking 50%-75% out of "soft-targets"[/quote] Okay, look... the velocity of a Needler Rifle round is sooo much higher than a Needler pistol that I have no problem believing it could penetrate that helmet. Also, we have no other contridicting source of say a Needler rifle not penetrating a Marines armor or something. If Kat was killed by a Needler pistol, yes I would be upset but the Rifle shoots a much much faster and probably bigger round so It seems believable.[/quote] We have seen 4, with a possible 5, needler weapons in Halo 1) The Needler- It fires low-velocity needles that penetrate soft targets and explode after hitting. When enough are present, a much larger explosion occurs. 2) The Needle Rifle- Fires needles at a high velocity. Like the needler the rounds impact(Key word there) and detonate after a short time, causing damage to targets. If 3 are present, a larger explosion occurs.(Now why would it have an explosive feature if it was an AP weapon that would pass through the targets the explsion would do the best on?) 3) Vampire turret- Fires very large needle rounds that have a tracking ability. Very useful, as the large rounds actively track other aircraft and still have an explosive effect. 4) Needler turret add-on- Basically the same as the Vampire turret And possibly 5) Energy cutlass- A needle shard turned sword. The goal is to stab it into your enemy in order for it to explode lethally. and what do we see here? With the exception of the turrets, Needle rounds are meant to impact and explode. So if a Needle round were to have AP qualities, it would go-through and explode, leaving out its main feature from the damage dealt.

Get in a fist-fight with a Hunter... and survive. That's how strong MJOLNIR Mk. IV armor is.

Kat's helmet was off just prior to her getting shot and her sheild had no time to recharge. Carter's hemet was off the whole time. Cheif survived because his sheilds and gel layer were set beyond maximum capacity at the time.

MJOLNIR armor with shields can stop most bullets and plasma, once the shields are gone it's design deflects bullets as well as acting like kevlar. in game it's not real because that ruins gameplay. also Master chiefs armor is stronger than SPARTAN III armor, and explosions are more damaging than falls with locked armor.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Rumblefromabove [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] greatestSheriff The MJOLNIR Power Suit, the UNSC's most advanced piece of tech since the Shaw-Fukijawa FTL Drives. Metal plates made out of a Titanium-A shell (The same stuff that UNSC ship's hulls are made out from), a titanium nanocomposite nanosuit, threated steel plates, and other hardened metals. And ontop of that tank, there are Energy Shields, capable to withstand high caliber bullet rounds. SPARTANS are human tanks. Well, just in the books, games are different thanks to game mechanics.[/quote] Yeah I'm just trying to figure out what is canon and what isn't. Most people have been saying armor is worthless and shields are everything but spartan armor is meant to keep the spartan alive through most situations... so in the cutscenes armor has the durability it has in multiplayer and in the books it is at true strength? [/quote]What is written in the books is true.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] superiorarsenal [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Gamer Whale [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE Wouldn't the needle rifle's needles act as bullets though, seeing how it can propel a needle, say, almost as far as the DMR? (using an example only) in the same speed?[/quote]This is what I think too, Needle rifle =/= Needler. Similar ammo, but not exactly the same. (Or it's about how the weapon works, and ammo is the same. We haven't seen needler mags since Halo 1.)[/quote] They still don't show ANY AP qualities. If a needle rifle round an go clean through a MJOLNIR Mark V helmet, then it would pass straight through a grunt's entire body. What purpose would the super-combine feature serve if it did that? The whole design of Needle-based Covenant weaponry is to fire hard and sharp needles into soft targets. When the needle explodes it causes a lot of damage to soft tissue. If the needle rifle had AP qualities it would pass through soft materials, going against its purpose. It would also not be sticking 50%-75% out of "soft-targets"[/quote] Okay, look... the velocity of a Needler Rifle round is sooo much higher than a Needler pistol that I have no problem believing it could penetrate that helmet. Also, we have no other contridicting source of say a Needler rifle not penetrating a Marines armor or something. If Kat was killed by a Needler pistol, yes I would be upset but the Rifle shoots a much much faster and probably bigger round so It seems believable.

How tough are they? They can eat a bowl of nails.... WITHOUT MILK.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Makko Mace [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] superiorarsenal Step aside, people MJOLNIR is incredibally durable. Here are some examples. Mark IV armor easily shrugging off .30 caliber chaingun fire during the testing Mark V shields only dropping to half after being hit by a smattering of 50mm rounds(So about 5) during the Mark V test. Mark VI is said to have 2x the shield strength and 5x the armor density. This equates to 20 50mm rounds to drop the shields alone. The damage you take in the game is game mechanics. You really think being shot twice in the foot by a sniper rifle would kill you? If you were as strong as you would be in the books, the game wouldn't be very fun as you are so overpowered vs bullets. Plasma is a different story though. But regardless game mechanics ARE NOT canon.[/quote] And yet the rebels bring .30 cal guns just to kill some Spartans.[/quote] Are the MUTA-AP .30 cal rounds used by the rebels in that confetti machine gun just as powerful as the 7.62 (.30 cal) AP rounds used in the MA5 assault rifle?

Its strong enough to survive a fall from space but not enough to get gang banged by elites. Bungies logic is flawed just like their game.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] superiorarsenal Imagine the Arbiter from Halo War's armor. It took a a good portion of a 60 round 7.62mm AP clip without even flinching. It took the rapid fire clip of an M6D's .50 caliber HE rounds to unclench his hand, but no damage otherwise. Note that that is the plating alone.[/quote]

That's something that can't really be pinpointed. They've made it fit reasonably with an RTS, FPS's, and novels. I'm sure they're not all the same. [Edited on 09.17.2011 8:46 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] superiorarsenal [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Gamer Whale [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE Wouldn't the needle rifle's needles act as bullets though, seeing how it can propel a needle, say, almost as far as the DMR? (using an example only) in the same speed?[/quote]This is what I think too, Needle rifle =/= Needler. Similar ammo, but not exactly the same. (Or it's about how the weapon works, and ammo is the same. We haven't seen needler mags since Halo 1.)[/quote] They still don't show ANY AP qualities. If a needle rifle round an go clean through a MJOLNIR Mark V helmet, then it would pass straight through a grunt's entire body. What purpose would the super-combine feature serve if it did that? The whole design of Needle-based Covenant weaponry is to fire hard and sharp needles into soft targets. When the needle explodes it causes a lot of damage to soft tissue. If the needle rifle had AP qualities it would pass through soft materials, going against its purpose. It would also not be sticking 50%-75% out of "soft-targets"[/quote]Gameplay =/= canon, and where you get this:[quote]The whole design of Needle-based Covenant weaponry is to fire hard and sharp needles into soft targets.[/quote]We have seen [b]two[/b] needle weapons.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Gamer Whale [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE Wouldn't the needle rifle's needles act as bullets though, seeing how it can propel a needle, say, almost as far as the DMR? (using an example only) in the same speed?[/quote]This is what I think too, Needle rifle =/= Needler. Similar ammo, but not exactly the same. (Or it's about how the weapon works, and ammo is the same. We haven't seen needler mags since Halo 1.)[/quote] They still don't show ANY AP qualities. If a needle rifle round an go clean through a MJOLNIR Mark V helmet, then it would pass straight through a grunt's entire body. What purpose would the super-combine feature serve if it did that? The whole design of Needle-based Covenant weaponry is to fire hard and sharp needles into soft targets. When the needle explodes it causes a lot of damage to soft tissue. If the needle rifle had AP qualities it would pass through soft materials, going against its purpose. It would also not be sticking 50%-75% out of "soft-targets"

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] superiorarsenal 1. Master Chief's durability is not whats in question. The MJOLNIR Mark VI survived the fall with little to no damage on it. 2.and he was not wearing a helmet, meaning his shields were down. 3.The impact is only a threat because your body will be crushed against the armor that took no damage. 4. If you think a needle round will go through concrete I feel sorry for you. NEVER have needle rounds shown any AP qualities. Hell, when a needle round hits a marine in the head it is still 50%-75% out. If Needle rounds acted like they did in that cutscene, they would pass straigth through a Marine's head and keep going with lethal velocity.[/quote]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE Wouldn't the needle rifle's needles act as bullets though, seeing how it can propel a needle, say, almost as far as the DMR? (using an example only) in the same speed?[/quote]This is what I think too, Needle rifle =/= Needler. Similar ammo, but not exactly the same. (Or it's about how the weapon works, and ammo is the same. We haven't seen needler mags since Halo 1.)

Wouldn't the needle rifle's needles act as bullets though, seeing how it can propel a needle, say, almost as far as the DMR? (using an example only) in the same speed?

Imagine the Arbiter from Halo War's armor. It took a a good portion of a 60 round 7.62mm AP clip without even flinching. It took the rapid fire clip of an M6D's .50 caliber HE rounds to unclench his hand, but no damage otherwise. Note that that is the plating alone.