[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MisterBraz It's Halo Legends, I wouldn't take everything that's presented in it as engraved in stone. Me, I go by the novels, because they're the most realistic interpretations of the Halo Universe. Master Chief encountered one in hand-to-hand in [i]First Strike[/i] and was easily outmatched, and mentioned Brutes as being severely faster and stronger than Elites. Brutes up close is bad news, and a bunch of kung-fu aint gonna save you from their incredible speed and strength. They may be clumsy berserkers, but their physical prowess overshadows any discrepancies in 'skill' in combat.[/quote] [quote]and was easily outmatched[/quote] The Brute had Chief in a grapple. This was the first Brute that Chief faced. The one thing you never do is get into a grappling fight with a physically stronger opponent. [quote]Brutes as being severely faster and stronger than Elites.[/quote] "Severely" stronger? No. Stronger? Yes. As for speed, Brute's are said to have "moved" faster than Elite's, and Chief himself when Chief saw one through on his motion sensor. That does not tell anything about the reflexes Brute's possess. Read the first few pages of this thread and you will see that Spartan's have superior reflexes. [quote]and a bunch of kung-fu aint gonna save you from their incredible speed and strength.[/quote] 1. A Brute is stronger than a Spartan, but a Spartan has superior reflexes. So you can take away that "incredible speed and strength" line. 2. Yes, a bunch of kung-fu will save you from an opponent who is both stronger and faster than you, but less trained. Your knowledge in martial arts will allow you to excecute precise, well-timed counter-attacks which utilize techniques that render your oppoenents strength advantage useless. Your footwork will counter-act your opponents movement speed advantage. And this is all ignoring the fact that Spartan's have incredible speed and strength of their own. 3. Cal did not use "kung-fu" in that episode. Kung fu is short for Wushu, which refers to a wide variety of chinese martial arts. Cal did not use a single Wushu move in the episode. She did some basic punches, backhands, and MMA style outer-crescent kicks. Nothing fancy at all. [quote]They may be clumsy berserkers, but their physical prowess overshadows any discrepancies in 'skill' in combat[/quote] 1. Huge contradiction there. 2. See the first #2 above.

Legends is an artistic rendition of things that are cannon. Ex: Cal fought a Chieftan briefly and it fell over the water fall, then came back and killed her. That is the extent of the Cannon here.

Since evryone touched up on the main points, at the end, where Cal got a hammer to the face, I don't think it was deer in headlights moment. I believe it was slow motion showing how quickly she was able to save the ODST at the cost of her own safety. She probably had just enough time to react to that moment and that reaction was saving her squadmate. Unless you are implying that Spartan Time should have had play in the second encounter.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MisterBraz It's Halo Legends, I wouldn't take everything that's presented in it as engraved in stone. Me, I go by the novels, because they're the most realistic interpretations of the Halo Universe. Master Chief encountered one in hand-to-hand in [i]First Strike[/i] and was easily outmatched, and mentioned Brutes as being severely faster and stronger than Elites. Brutes up close is bad news, and a bunch of kung-fu aint gonna save you from their incredible speed and strength. They may be clumsy berserkers, but their physical prowess overshadows any discrepancies in 'skill' in combat.[/quote] Canon goes games then novels, it doesn't matter what you go by. Physical prowess can hide discrepancies but it doesn't make up for them. See david and goliath. Spartans possess their own amount of ridiculous speed and strength so while they may not be on par with a brute it still doesn't make H2H combat impossible. I'd take a cool, calm, skilled spartan over a massive and imposing brute any day.

"Okay, so I forgot about him being mid-swing. Still doesn't remove the utter tactical stupidity of the move. Because, even if he was mid-swing, he'd know where she would land. So, she jumps over, dodging the swing, then gets hit upon landing by a followup." Hence the reason the Brute lost that fight. Less H2H training and slower response times. when will you comprahend this? You are using hindsight and applying it to the Brute, who didn't have it. "As for halo 2/3, my comment is we cannot take those as "cold, hard facts" unless a novel is posted and we see exactly how in canon Chief dealt with them. Sure, we can say he killed them, but do we know how? Nope. Or, do we know if Chief bypassed a group of brutes and went into the next hallway without engaging any?" Halo 3: Heroic: The Covenant- Twice you have to take on a pack of Brutes alone. You can only move on once you have killed them. The cutscene also shows you standing in the room deviod of Brutes, meaning you killed them. Are you saying that isn't canon? Halo games are the highest canon. That is scripted to happen. It is not game mechanics or gameplay. That is something you had to do. YOU HAD TO KILL 2 PACKS OF BRUTES REGARDLESS OF DIFFICULTY IN ORDER TO CARRY ON. Do you get it now? Saying that doesn't matter is like saying the Halo games don't matter. It doesn't show how he killed those Brutes, but it shows that he did, and relatively unscathed if you look and see how calm he seems during the proceeding cutscenes.

Spartans are the best!

It's Halo Legends, I wouldn't take everything that's presented in it as engraved in stone. Me, I go by the novels, because they're the most realistic interpretations of the Halo Universe. Master Chief encountered one in hand-to-hand in [i]First Strike[/i] and was easily outmatched, and mentioned Brutes as being severely faster and stronger than Elites. Brutes up close is bad news, and a bunch of kung-fu aint gonna save you from their incredible speed and strength. They may be clumsy berserkers, but their physical prowess overshadows any discrepancies in 'skill' in combat.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HipiO7 I hated that episode of Legends... [i]so much[/i].[/quote] Especially the samurai Elites, right?

I'm not sure, but I lean towards that the Brute should have died after that fall.

I hated that episode of Legends... [i]so much[/i].

I've always wondered what happened to the Spartans' heightened reaction time. It seems like it has all but disappeared.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jonzx5 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jonzx5 This was widely debated in the other thread. [b]There is no evidence that Brute's are equally as fast and agile as Spartan's,[/b] while there is ton's of evidence showing Spartan's speed feats. 1. Dodging bullets 2. Dodging point blank plasma shots 3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion) 4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track [b]The only evidence of a Brute's speed we have is when John saw one moving past his motion tracker, which as stated to have moved "faster than an Elite"[/b] That's an extremely broad observation, and had nothing to do with reflexes, which mean more in a hand to hand fight than being able to run fast.[/quote] [quote]The transient contact was back,a shadow moved around the same pillar John used for cover. It moved faster than an Elite, [b]as fast as John.[/b][/quote] Halo: First Strike page 314. So, no proof of a Brute being as fast as a Spartan eh? go figure.[/quote] You are really late buddy. I have acknowledged that quote, someone else mentioned it a page before you finished comprehending it. I also talked about that quote. It shows that Brute's can MOVE as fast as Spartan's, not REACT. Good try.[/quote] I didn't take that much to comprehend, a simple 20 second search on my book, but I had to leave to the movie theater and so, I wasn't able to post.

Okay, so I forgot about him being mid-swing. Still doesn't remove the utter tactical stupidity of the move. Because, even if he was mid-swing, he'd know where she would land. So, she jumps over, dodging the swing, then gets hit upon landing by a followup. As for halo 2/3, my comment is we cannot take those as "cold, hard facts" unless a novel is posted and we see exactly how in canon Chief dealt with them. Sure, we can say he killed them, but do we know how? Nope. Or, do we know if Chief bypassed a group of brutes and went into the next hallway without engaging any?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] superiorarsenal Must I also point out that Halo games are canon. This means Master Chief has fought and killed entire packs of Brutes on his own. The only reason he had preformed so poorly is because he was taken off-guard by an enemy he had never fought before. Cal was aware of the Brute beforehand, putting her in a much better position than Chief was. If anything, the Brute was a little surprised by Cal. Cal was also kicking, which is immensly more powerful than punching. A SPARTAN-II in MJOLNIR should be capable of doing 8 tons on a leg-press(Kicking a 1 ton exoskeleton 8 meters with no MJOLNIR).[/quote] A: games are canon, exact gameplay events are not. If so, we'd also have to consider chief possibly being an idiot who does nothing but melee and teabag. B: Proof Cal had prior experiance fighting brutes, hand to hand or not. When she jumped over the chieftain, that would've ended the fight. Cause he'd just reach up, grab her leg, and slam her into the ground.[/quote] A: We can assume that at least some exact gameplay moments are canon. Like the guy above said, especially on Heroic, which is the Canon difficulty. Chief did single handedly take on packs of Brute's before. In your philosophy, nothing really happened in the Halo Games, but we still get the end result of earth being saved, flood being destroyed, truth being killed, etc...?? So how did Chief accomplish all of this if he did not kill -blam!-? Your comment on how the Brute should have grabbed Cal when she jumped over him is absolutely rediculous. First of all, the Brute was in mid swing, and Cal jumped in order to dodge the swing. Are you telling me that the Brute can swing his hammer, and reach up to grab Cal at the same time?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RKOSNAKE [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jonzx5 This was widely debated in the other thread. [b]There is no evidence that Brute's are equally as fast and agile as Spartan's,[/b] while there is ton's of evidence showing Spartan's speed feats. 1. Dodging bullets 2. Dodging point blank plasma shots 3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion) 4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track [b]The only evidence of a Brute's speed we have is when John saw one moving past his motion tracker, which as stated to have moved "faster than an Elite"[/b] That's an extremely broad observation, and had nothing to do with reflexes, which mean more in a hand to hand fight than being able to run fast.[/quote] [quote]The transient contact was back,a shadow moved around the same pillar John used for cover. It moved faster than an Elite, [b]as fast as John.[/b][/quote] Halo: First Strike page 314. So, no proof of a Brute being as fast as a Spartan eh? go figure.[/quote] You are really late buddy. I have acknowledged that quote, someone else mentioned it a page before you finished comprehending it. I also talked about that quote. It shows that Brute's can MOVE as fast as Spartan's, not REACT. Good try.

"Oh, another thing superiorarsenal, It depends on difficulty. I think I heard in one level of CE, on legendary you face a swarm of zealots who NEVER appear on any other difficulty" Heroic is the difficulty Halo was meant to be played on, so it is assumed the amount of enemies you fight on this diffuculty are the amount fought in canon. Also, Halo 3, the Covenant, Master Chief takes on 2 seperate packs of brutes on by himself, regardless of difficulty. "So, we can't say such a room in halo 2 had for sure 10 brutes because on another difficulty setting the spawns could be different." What's on Herioc is the standard. And anyways, there are areas of campaign that have the same amount of enemies regardless.

"Okay then, prove Spartans reflexes/respone times are faster then brutes." Sure. In The Fall of Reach, Master Chief dodged a few chaingun rounds at close range. Assuming the turret was 10 meters away(I'm being a little loose on the distance), and chaingun rounds move at 805m/s, it would take at least 0.012 second RESPONSE time(Note response time, the time that you react to something and move to act upon it). 0.012 seconds is 12 milliseconds. I've done my part, now prove Brutes are even close to being as fast. "Also, reflexes are only as good as the person's movement speed. You can have insane reflexes, but if you aren't as fast as that you will only be able to know you are going to get hit and can't avoid it other then being hit." Hensce why I have been saying RESPONSE times, which takes reflex time and movement speed into the equation. MJOLNIR is connected via nueral uplink, and has a force multiplyer. What this means is a SPARTAN's reaction time and response times become near equal. "Your reflexes will naturally be faster/better when you and the other guy are standing still, and you KNOW what's coming. In a true combat situation, you and the opponent don't know what blow the other will use, where it'll hit, and so on. Thus your reflexes aren't as great." But when your reaction time is in lower milliseconds, a slight difference isn't much. Actually, it has been said that SPARTAN's reaction times get BETTER under high-stress situations.

Oh, another thing superiorarsenal, It depends on difficulty. I think I heard in one level of CE, on legendary you face a swarm of zealots who NEVER appear on any other difficulty. So, we can't say such a room in halo 2 had for sure 10 brutes because on another difficulty setting the spawns could be different.

Well, since Spartans can obviously own Brutes in hand to hand anyday, then that means [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVf8zEzxyJg&feature=feedrec_grec_index#t=1m41s]ODSTs can take on Elite Zealots without difficulty.[/url]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] superiorarsenal A: If you fight a half dozen brutes alone(scripted so no other AIs are helping you) then Chief in canon was able to kill half a dozen brutes alone B: I never said she did. What I did say was that Cal was aware of the Chieftan's existence prior to the fight with it(She saw it before it attacked her). John was caught off-gaurd by the Brutes in First Strike, so a comparison is not exactly valid between the two. Reached up and grabbed her? This assumes he had fast enough response times to do so, or that he had precognative knowledge. Did it ever occur to you that SPARTANs are more well versed in martial arts and that they have far faster Response times? Prove that Brutes have even close to equal response times to SPARTANs. Not that stupid qoute about being as fast. That qoute is about their running/movement speed, not their response times.[/quote] Okay then, prove Spartans reflexes/respone times are faster then brutes. Also, reflexes are only as good as the person's movement speed. You can have insane reflexes, but if you aren't as fast as that you will only be able to know you are going to get hit and can't avoid it other then being hit. Edit: Another reflexes thing. Your reflexes will naturally be faster/better when you and the other guy are standing still, and you KNOW what's coming. In a true combat situation, you and the opponent don't know what blow the other will use, where it'll hit, and so on. Thus your reflexes aren't as great. [Edited on 08.29.2011 9:12 PM PDT]

Cal was just kung fu fighting, she was as fast as lightning, in fact it was a little bit frightening [Edited on 08.29.2011 8:58 PM PDT]

A: If you fight a half dozen brutes alone(scripted so no other AIs are helping you) then Chief in canon was able to kill half a dozen brutes alone B: I never said she did. What I did say was that Cal was aware of the Chieftan's existence prior to the fight with it(She saw it before it attacked her). John was caught off-gaurd by the Brutes in First Strike, so a comparison is not exactly valid between the two. Reached up and grabbed her? This assumes he had fast enough response times to do so, or that he had precognative knowledge. Did it ever occur to you that SPARTANs are more well versed in martial arts and that they have far faster Response times? Prove that Brutes have even close to equal response times to SPARTANs. Not that stupid qoute about being as fast. That qoute is about their running/movement speed, not their response times.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jonzx5 This was widely debated in the other thread. [b]There is no evidence that Brute's are equally as fast and agile as Spartan's,[/b] while there is ton's of evidence showing Spartan's speed feats. 1. Dodging bullets 2. Dodging point blank plasma shots 3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion) 4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track [b]The only evidence of a Brute's speed we have is when John saw one moving past his motion tracker, which as stated to have moved "faster than an Elite"[/b] That's an extremely broad observation, and had nothing to do with reflexes, which mean more in a hand to hand fight than being able to run fast.[/quote] [quote]The transient contact was back,a shadow moved around the same pillar John used for cover. It moved faster than an Elite, [b]as fast as John.[/b][/quote] Halo: First Strike page 314. So, no proof of a Brute being as fast as a Spartan eh? go figure.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] superiorarsenal Must I also point out that Halo games are canon. This means Master Chief has fought and killed entire packs of Brutes on his own. The only reason he had preformed so poorly is because he was taken off-guard by an enemy he had never fought before. Cal was aware of the Brute beforehand, putting her in a much better position than Chief was. If anything, the Brute was a little surprised by Cal. Cal was also kicking, which is immensly more powerful than punching. A SPARTAN-II in MJOLNIR should be capable of doing 8 tons on a leg-press(Kicking a 1 ton exoskeleton 8 meters with no MJOLNIR).[/quote] A: games are canon, exact gameplay events are not. If so, we'd also have to consider chief possibly being an idiot who does nothing but melee and teabag. B: Proof Cal had prior experiance fighting brutes, hand to hand or not. When she jumped over the chieftain, that would've ended the fight. Cause he'd just reach up, grab her leg, and slam her into the ground.

Must I also point out that Halo games are canon. This means Master Chief has fought and killed entire packs of Brutes on his own. The only reason he had preformed so poorly is because he was taken off-guard by an enemy he had never fought before. Cal was aware of the Brute beforehand, putting her in a much better position than Chief was. If anything, the Brute was a little surprised by Cal. Cal was also kicking, which is immensly more powerful than punching. A SPARTAN-II in MJOLNIR should be capable of doing 8 tons on a leg-press(Kicking a 1 ton exoskeleton 8 meters with no MJOLNIR).

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jonzx5 This was widely debated in the other thread. There is no evidence that Brute's are equally as fast and agile as Spartan's, while there is ton's of evidence showing Spartan's speed feats. 1. Dodging bullets 2. Dodging point blank plasma shots 3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion) 4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track[/quote] How does any of this relate to the Brutes though? It tells us plainly what Spartans can do but not what Brutes can do. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jonzx5 The only evidence of a Brute's speed we have is when John saw one moving past his motion tracker, which as stated to have moved "faster than an Elite". That's an extremely broad observation, and had nothing to do with reflexes, which mean more in a hand to hand fight than being able to run fast.[/quote] Right after that it says "[i]As fast as him.[/i]" [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jonzx5 And then this Legends episode. 1. If the writer's of the Legend's episode decided to portray the Spartan as being much more agile than the Brute, and Frank oversaw the episode's production, [b]than they, the creators of Halo, have established Canon.[/b][/quote] This is not valid. In The Package, Halsey is depicted as looking like she is in her twentys. This is obviously false as in 2549 Halsey is aged 57. Halo Reach takes place 3 years after The Package, and yet she does not look in her twentys. In The Duel, Fal killed an entire army (At least one hundred strong) on an open plain where there was no cover. He was armed with only two plasma swords. He had to run toward that army, and apparently never got hit. No one in that army even has to aim, all they have to do is open fire in Fal's general direction and probability will do the rest. Yet he emerges unscathed. Using your argument these instances should be taken as canon. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jonzx5 2. The fan's can to a certain point argue and debate about inaccuracies in the episode, but the fan's have limited rights when it comes down to deciding true or false. The creator's ultimately get to decide if Spartan's or Brute's are more agile, and from this episode, it seems that Spartan's have the agility edge.[/quote] This is the only thing which gives definite proof one way. Other things have indicated that they are tied and that it is extremely difficult for a Spartan to take on a Brute in CQC one on one. (In First Strike there is that scene with John, and then in Ghosts of Onyx there is one with Fred at the Centennial Elevator) Legends is not trustworthy independently. If there were other sources stating that things are usually this effortless in a fight between the two then I would not see any issue with using it then. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jonzx5 (The best in the galaxy, as stated in Fall Of Reach)[/quote] [Citation Needed][/quote] [quote]In The Package, Halsey is depicted as looking like she is in her twentys. This is obviously false as in 2549 Halsey is aged 57. Halo Reach takes place 3 years after The Package, and yet she does not look in her twentys.[/quote] That's an asthetic inaccuracy, completely irrelevant. [quote]In The Duel, Fal killed an entire army (At least one hundred strong) on an open plain where there was no cover. He was armed with only two plasma swords. He had to run toward that army, and apparently never got hit. No one in that army even has to aim, all they have to do is open fire in Fal's general direction and probability will do the rest. Yet he emerges unscathed.[/quote] The army did open up in his general direction. The reason why he was not hit was because he deflected the shots with his Energy swords. We don't see him getting hit (Actually, if you watch very carefully you can see a few possible hits), but we can't automatically assume that he was not even hit a single time. He does have armor after all. [quote]Right after that it says "[i]As fast as him.[/i]"[/quote] So from here, we get that a Brute's movement speed is as fast as a Spartan's. This is different from reflexes. As for reflexes: 1. Dodging bullets 2. Dodging point blank plasma shots 3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion) 4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track And what another member posted: [quote]Master Chief was capable of dodging a few chaingun rounds wearing Mark IV armor. This requires(From 10 meters away) a 10 millisecond response time. This corresponds with the base reaction time of 20 miliseconds, combined with the force multipliers to make reaction time and response time near equal, and the reaction/response boosting properties of the MJOLNIR. This totals out at a 5 millisecond response time. Combine that with 8 years of hardcore military training with some heavy focus on martial arts techniques, and it is very possible to beat a Brute in H2H.[/quote] Yes, I know that this only tells us what Spartan's can do and not what Brute's can do, [b]but realisticly, with all the information given, what are the chances that a Brute has reflexes faster than that?[/b] [quote]This is the only thing which gives definite proof one way. Other things have indicated that they are tied and that it is extremely difficult for a Spartan to take on a Brute in CQC one on one. (In First Strike there is that scene with John, and then in Ghosts of Onyx there is one with Fred at the Centennial Elevator) Legends is not trustworthy independently. If there were other sources stating that things are usually this effortless in a fight between the two then I would not see any issue with using it then.[/quote] So we are in partial agreement here. In my last post, I said that with all the evidence, I think that a Spartan would beat a Brute in hand to hand, [b]but with more difficulty than portrayed in the episode.[/b] [quote]The best in the galaxy, as stated in Fall Of Reach[/quote] Something along those lines were said, I dont have the book infront of me, but it was when Kelly and the rest of them were about to jump. Someone help. [Edited on 08.29.2011 2:52 PM PDT]