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#Septagon

1/25/2011 7:42:35 PM
210

Haven't we already been through this?

From the new rules: [quote]Do not discuss unauthorized modification of console game hardware or software, even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate.[/quote] In my philosophy of law class yesterday, we discussed why exactly laws are so complicated. Everyone interprets them differently, and their meanings change over time. But why does this rule have to be so vague? What's the goal of the rule? To prevent people using Bungie.net to find out how to cheat? To prevent people from using this site to find out how to mod their 360? To stop all discussion on modifications? If it's to prevent cheating, why not just combing this rule with the rule about cheating? "Detailing methods of cheating, including console modifications is not allowed".

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Got it, you're not interested in actual discussion, just a pile on. I'll note that for next time. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RighteousTyrant Well, no surprise there. I've seen that kind of cop-out before. [/quote][/quote]You should first look at my first post in this thread before jumping to conclusions about my intent. But digging through facts to find the truth isn't something you're fond of, judging from that same experience.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Got it, you're not interested in actual discussion, just a pile on. I'll note that for next time. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RighteousTyrant Well, no surprise there. I've seen that kind of cop-out before. [/quote][/quote] Here we go again. OT: so say even if it is completely fine w/ the hardware of company to mod, and then some guy talks about modding, that is bad? edit: well not necassarily bad but agianst forum rules? [Edited on 01.25.2011 3:33 PM PST]

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  • Got it, you're not interested in actual discussion, just a pile on. I'll note that for next time. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RighteousTyrant Well, no surprise there. I've seen that kind of cop-out before. [/quote]

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  • Has this really been going on four pages about that one little thing? You can't talk about modding here because that's just what they've decided to be inappropriate for the forums. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 What's the goal of the rule? To prevent people using Bungie.net to find out how to cheat? To prevent people from using this site to find out how to mod their 360? To stop all discussion on modifications? [/quote] The goal is to have no discussion about modding on the forums. If there was discussion of modding then it would seem as if Bungie were indifferent to it or even condones it. By making it off limits it I'd assume they have a very anti-modding stance. It's really just a way to say "We don't approve, and don't want to support you doing it in any way" to me. [Edited on 01.25.2011 3:31 PM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos That discussion is irrelevant here. No matter how much you try to make it relevant, you're applying a context of law to a minor forum rule. As operators of this forum, we've decided that a console hardware and software author's wishes on this topic are a good enough reference for the purposes of rules. Because of the complexities of real IP/copyright law, "real" authority is not a simple matter, and so designated authority will have to be good enough.[/quote]So if you decided "real" authority was too complex a reference, why did you reference it? As I said, this is a case that is far better explained as you've explained it here. Explain exactly what you want to ban, don't try and abstract it. You've just said yourself the abstract - the legal definitions - are far, far too complex a reference for a forum, so why've you tried to employ such an abstract yourself? Even referring to manufacturer wishes is a bloomin' minefield. Modifications to Kinect are, again, a good example. They're completely unauthorised; you'll receieve no support for a kinect device running through open source drivers, but they're positively encouraged at the same time. On the other hand we have the absolutely identical situation of an iPhone running an open source OS rom image, which is both unauthorised and discouraged by the manufacturer, but explicitely covered by a DMCA exemption. One of these is an issue you've said yourself you think is cool, but given the addendum to the rule; "even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate", you'd seem to want to cover everything, including that coolness. You might consider this academic or inconsequential, but they're your rules. If you really thought such concerns were inconsequential, you wouldn't have re-written them in response to the same concerns raised not weeks ago. There's nothing wrong with using more than a few words when the situation demands it. This is one such situation. [Edited on 01.25.2011 3:31 PM PST]

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  • Well, no surprise there. I've seen that kind of cop-out before.

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  • Sigh. I'm not going to get in a discussion about legalities with you (yes, several things have been defined as fair use in various jurisdictions, no, they don't cover every aspect of it, some apply to Xboxes, some not, and international issues do apply whether you'd like them to or not, etc.). I regret bringing that up, I probably only helped side track the thread there. I apologize for that. That discussion is irrelevant here. No matter how much you try to make it relevant, you're applying a context of law to a minor forum rule. As operators of this forum, we've decided that a console hardware and software author's wishes on this topic are a good enough reference for the purposes of rules. Because of the complexities of real IP/copyright law, "real" authority is not a simple matter, and so designated authority will have to be good enough. For example, we claim often that "You have no rights" here. Well that's kind of tongue in cheek, right? You have rights in your legal jurisdiction. But we're talking about our ability to control what you say and access our systems. We grant that authority. I think we're talking about two different kinds of authority, here. Arguing "legal authority" is entirely different from "authority on bungie.net". I am trying to walk through this with you and engage in this discussion, but in the interests of full disclosure - you are trying my patience, as you are quibbling over one word in a rule you know damn well the purpose of and one which you aren't confused about its enforcement. On top of all of that, it is a minor rule and nobody but three of you have expressed any concern about it. That's not a threat to ban you or anything, but I'm just saying I'm not going to entertain this mostly academic discussion much longer.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A 3 Legged Goat New rules? Where did the forum-specific rules go? [/quote] I think they were deleted.

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  • Page 4 just got epic.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Not necessarily. There are contradictions in statues, case precedent, etc. And I haven't even gone into what happens when you cross international boundaries! That's why I said it was a gray area. There's nothing I can really say here other than that you're wrong. Go talk to an IP lawyer. This is a common misunderstanding - but that's why the rule is written as it is. I'm sorry, but you have not successfully convinced me that there is a problem here with this minor rule, since your entire premise is based on a flawed understand of the issue at play. [/quote]Please, do elaborate on the contradictory statutes and case precedent, as the only case on Xbox 360 hacking that has every happened in the United States was thrown out. The judge, in that case, argued that fair use was, in fact, a viable defence under the DMCA. (though he did seem to change his stance on this, as he originally ruled that it wasn't) So, please, don't cite talking to an IP lawyer, as that's a classic appeal to authority. You'd blissfully fail Philosophy 101 (not to mention you'd be laughed at by anyone with a basic grasp of fallacies) for bringing that one up. As such, do tell me how our interpretation is flawed, since I'm struggling to understand your position in light of US Federal law and the DMCA. Additionally, Bungie.net is an American website and subject only to US law, so your reference to international boundaries is [i]thoroughly irrelevant[/i].

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos There's nothing I can really say here other than that you're wrong. Go talk to an IP lawyer.[/quote]I live with one, my tutor is one (actually he's two; it's complicated) and i've spent an inordinate quantity of my government's money studying this nonsense. There's nothing i can really say here other than that you're wrong. See how authority fallacies work? Unless you explain how such personal use isn't outside of the dmca fair use exemption, when it quite clearly is (cf iPhone jailbreaking, xbox modding case) you've got nothing here. Could you at least cite the confusion in statute or prior judgement you're referring to? While I'd be genuinely disappointed to find I'm wrong, I'd be interested to know why. The three of us arguing this point fully understand the rule; we understand it far better than those who have accepted it at what they believe to be its face value. You know as well as i do that the rule uses improper language. You've actually managed to write something that makes [i]less[/i] sense as one becomes more familiar with the subject. For that, at least, I think you deserve a pat on the back. You can tell you grew up with perl. [Edited on 01.25.2011 2:51 PM PST]

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  • New rules? Where did the forum-specific rules go?

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  • Not necessarily. There are contradictions in statues, case precedent, etc. And I haven't even gone into what happens when you cross international boundaries! That's why I said it was a gray area. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker Circumvention of security protections for personal use is well within the bounds of fair use. It's almost exactly what fair use was intended for.[/quote] There's nothing I can really say here other than that you're wrong. Go talk to an IP lawyer. This is a common misunderstanding - but that's why the rule is written as it is. [quote]Actually, it's the opposite. It's a whole lot of tiny little black and white areas. I'm trying to say that's exactly what it is and that's why your broad rule doesn't work. The situation isn't clear-cut so a clear-cut rule doesn't work. This is one situation where a verbose explanation of what you mean really would be better than brevity.[/quote] [quote]Sorry, this is exactly my point. I'm [b]not[/b] reading into it. To come to the conclusion that "Kinect hacks are cool, so they're ok" while "Mod chips aren't cool, so don't go there" you've got to read quite a lot into and around the rule. You've even included an addendum that appears to say, or at least has been interpreted to say, that you want to cover everything, even if it's in good faith. The rule's barely been in place hours and you've already got a confused message.[/quote] Yes, a few hours and all of what, three people seem to not understand? I'm sorry, but you have not successfully convinced me that there is a problem here with this minor rule, since your entire premise is based on a flawed understand of the issue at play.

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  • Oh also Achronos, under the community tab, the 'Forum Rules' button still links to the old thread. Sure it has a redirect link, but I'ma just assume that'll be changed. Just thought I'd say it in case.

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  • "Even a dog can distinguish between being stumbled over and being kicked." - Old English Proverb If a dog is capable of reasonably determining intent based on the actions of another, I suspect that I can probably do at least as well. If a member posts topic on modding hardware or software, I will act based on my judgment, reason and interpretation of the membership agreement, the rules and the users post. If I choose to lock, then it is locked, if I choose to ban, the member can appeal based on their reasoning and understanding of the membership agreement, the rules and their post. If they can get me to come to their conclusion, I will alter my actions. It is not my job to change their mind, but to make up my own and explain my actions/reasoning. I for one, can see, understand and appreciate the intent of the rule as it is stated. I don't want to have the hosts of this site open to any legal action (justified suit or not, either way, no member no matter how argumentative is going to represent Bungie pro-bono) because some member decided that their personal actions were justified and this was an appropriate place to discuss/advocate those actions. If someone wants to use the wording and phraseology of the rule to be more important than its spirit or its (at least to me) clear intent... fine. But as someone who not only has to follow the rule but enforce it, I don't see much room for angels to dance here.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Primum Agmen [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain Hmm well I was under the [i]assumption[/i] that anything protected under this law was to be distributed and modified at the creators intent or will. [quote]Exceptions include fair dealing and fair use, and such use does not require the permission of the copyright owner.[/quote][/quote]My point is in the bit you quoted. So long as you aren't distributing the modified software, it comes under fair use. As soon as distribution of modified software comes into play, you violate copyright. This is part of the reason why things like fan films aren't allowed by Microsoft. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Uh, no, you're not. That's violating at least one US law that I know of, probably more. There even exists legal precedent there too.[/quote]Care to tell me which law that you're thinking of? I'd wager a guess that it's the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.[/quote] I agree primum. But cant we all just agree that the gist of this rule here on B.net is to halt all discussion in regards to modifying or cheating in any way shape or form here or B.net. Or how about we all interpret it as that. I can't take the needless arguing! *hides in flood*

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos In order to patch the game, you'd have to circumvent the security protections on both the console and the software itself (both have several layers of protection of varying effectiveness). This could be construed a violation of the DMCA (yes, according to real lawyers).[/quote]Circumvention of security protections for personal use is well within the bounds of fair use. It's almost exactly what fair use was intended for. [quote]...But this entire issue is a huge legal gray area, and you are trying to make it out like it is a simple black and white issue....[/quote]Actually, it's the opposite. It's a whole lot of tiny little black and white areas. I'm trying to say that's exactly what it is and that's why your broad rule doesn't work. The situation isn't clear-cut so a clear-cut rule doesn't work. This is one situation where a verbose explanation of what you mean really would be better than brevity. [quote]Stop reading so much into it.[/quote]Sorry, this is exactly my point. I'm [b]not[/b] reading into it. To come to the conclusion that "Kinect hacks are cool, so they're ok" while "Mod chips aren't cool, so don't go there" you've got to read quite a lot into and around the rule. You've even included an addendum that appears to say, or at least has been interpreted to say, that you want to cover everything, even if it's in good faith. The rule's barely been in place hours and you've already got a confused message.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Stop reading so much into it.[/quote]No. [i]Your move[/i]. Also, [quote]Ban lengths are not necessarily identical for users who commit the same offense, context and the user involved matter. Nobody cares about your forum title.[/quote]semi-colon > comma? [quote]- Do not impersonate others (with your posts or user profile)[/quote]That one doesn't have a period after it but all the other ones do. /defies authority by nitpicking and is totally a rebel now, which instantly makes me cool.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain Hmm well I was under the [i]assumption[/i] that anything protected under this law was to be distributed and modified at the creators intent or will. [quote]Exceptions include fair dealing and fair use, and such use does not require the permission of the copyright owner.[/quote][/quote]My point is in the bit you quoted. So long as you aren't distributing the modified software, it comes under fair use. As soon as distribution of modified software comes into play, you violate copyright. This is part of the reason why things like fan films aren't allowed by Microsoft. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Uh, no, you're not. That's violating at least one US law that I know of, probably more. There even exists legal precedent there too.[/quote]Care to tell me which law that you're thinking of? I'd wager a guess that it's the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos In order to patch the game, you'd have to circumvent the security protections on both the console and the software itself (both have several layers of protection of varying effectiveness). This could be construed a violation of the DMCA (yes, according to real lawyers). Admittedly, no one really cares to take it that far unless you're doing it to pirate or otherwise affect the business operations of the owning company, but my point is simply that your complaint is vastly simplifying the issues at play here.[/quote]Yup, I guessed it. Now, this doesn't actually class as a violation of the DMCA for rather amusing reasons. One is that unless you know it's illegal, you aren't breaking the law. (strange, but true) The other is that you're perfectly allowed to do this for your own personal use. Selling modified consoles is varyingly illegal, and telling people how to modify their consoles is almost certainly illegal, but you're allowed to modify the content to your hearts content otherwise. As I've said in an earlier post (cripes, Achronos doesn't read?), this isn't illegal. It comes under the heading of "fair use", and so long as you own the console and the game you have copied legally, it's not a criminal offence. Owning a pirated game is definitely illegal, having a video game console that is modified to let you is not. Selling an item which could be seen to encourage piracy is generally frowned upon and quite often the sale of such items is blocked, however. [url=http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/xbox-judge-riled/]This[/url] is the most recent trial on the subject I know of. [Edited on 01.25.2011 2:33 PM PST]

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  • In order to patch the game, you'd have to circumvent the security protections on both the console and the software itself (both have several layers of protection of varying effectiveness). This could be construed a violation of the DMCA (yes, according to real lawyers). Admittedly, no one really cares to take it that far unless you're doing it to pirate or otherwise affect the business operations of the owning company, but my point is simply that your complaint is vastly simplifying the issues at play here. We want to let you talk about things you want to talk about, for the most part. We think Kinect hacks are cool, for example. But this entire issue is a huge legal gray area, and you are trying to make it out like it is a simple black and white issue. It isn't. [b]The rule exists in the form it does because we're trying to be as permissive as possible while still letting you know that sometimes your thread about this will get locked.[/b] Stop reading so much into it. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker Oh go on then, you've got me curious. Which one?[/quote]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Uh, no, you're not. That's violating at least one US law that I know of, probably more. There even exists legal precedent there too.[/quote]Oh go on then, you've got me curious. Which one?

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  • Honestly, I think it's pretty easy to use common sense for that rule. Here's what's not ok: - Modding your console to get pirated games, more HDD space, modding your control to give you an advantage in a game, or altering video game mechanics. Here's what's ok: - Kinnect hacks and case mods. At least, that's how I view the rule.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Primum Agmen [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain You use it out of context as in personal gain or friend gain thats where it gets confusing. Your right again they don't control every cd that pops out or every DLC that is downloaded, but if you abuse what they have provided be prepared to be punished.[/quote]Punished? They can't "punish" you for it. The best they can do is refuse to repair a console, honour a warranty or refuse service on Xbox Live. Unless someone knows that it is illegal, they can also mod as many consoles as they like and sell them on without doing anything illegally under the DMCA. It's incredibly difficult for the manufacturer to do much of anything about, well, anything. We are, in fact, allowed to modify and redistribute (well, depending on your definition of 'redistribute', I suppose) for both profit and non-profit purposes. See, this is why the whole assumption is a bit daft - consumer rights almost always trump manufacturer rights. There are only a few cases in which that's not the case, though none seem to spring to mind so long as you bought the games and console legally.[/quote] Hmm well I was under the [i]assumption[/i] that anything protected under this law was to be distributed and modified at the creators intent or will. [quote]Copyright is a set of exclusive rights granted by the law of a jurisdiction to the author or creator of an original work, including the right to copy, distribute and adapt the work. Exceptions and limitations to these rights strive to balance the public interest in the wide distribution of the material produced and to encourage creativity. Exceptions include fair dealing and fair use, and such use does not require the permission of the copyright owner. All other uses require permission and copyright owners can license or permanently transfer or assign their exclusive rights to others.[/quote] But it seems to me you are allowed to modify or encourage creativity among the consumer and all Bungie was trying to say is don't talk about here or anywhere on B.net. So there for I think that this modification talk here on B.net is "unauthorized" by Bungie and you will be punished. [Edited on 01.25.2011 2:14 PM PST]

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  • Uh, no, you're not. That's violating at least one US law that I know of, probably more. There even exists legal precedent there too. This is why this rule is written as it is. You're welcome to complain more about it, but I consider the matter closed. I have explained the intent, and feel it is very clear to the vast majority of people who will read that passage. To those of you it wasn't clear to, I provided a post with an expanded description with a concrete example. You're not getting more. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker You're somewhat missing the point. If you have an understanding of "real world laws", then you fully understand that you have every right (you are authorised) to patch the software to give yourself an unlimited DRM automatic rocket launcher, with or without permission. While it should be noted that you obviously then can't connect to XBL with such a modification in place, we're then into the minefield of allowing one service's guidelines to define what you can do to your own product. That might work for xboxes and XBL, but shortly this site will be serving multi-platform games, and we've already got a sizeable portion of the community that talks about every other topic under the sun. Sometimes it ain't that clear cut.[/quote]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MA5C 7RUTH Personally, I think you should be doing something better with your time and "knowledge" than arguing about the wording of rules for a website.[/quote]Where does arguing about arguing about rules fall on this scale of things to do with your time?[/quote]As if any other conversation on this site is truly "better". Arguing over game settings in Opti, or the possibility of a secret ending in the Reach forum? All are equally pointless. You step into the Internet, and you lose your right to tell others to do something "better" because you're right here in the muck with us. lol, self-righteousness

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MA5C 7RUTH Personally, I think you should be doing something better with your time and "knowledge" than arguing about the wording of rules for a website.[/quote]Where does arguing about arguing about rules fall on this scale of things to do with your time?[/quote]This could go on for a while.

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