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Edited by JayTG7:
8/31/2019 1:49:35 PM
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Some Thoughts on Today's "Seasons in Destiny" Post
Hey Bungie,
First off, I want to say "thank you" for your recent communication with the community regarding Destiny's past, present, and future. Regardless of how each player feels about the content of your messages, the transparency is both refreshing and appreciated, and today's post was no exception. I was one of the many people posting in the forums and on Reddit wanting to know more about the structure and implementation of future Season content, and getting a response on that topic well ahead of Shadowkeep's release is exactly what we were looking for (or at least I was).
While I do appreciate your continued honesty, and the information you presented to us in the post today, it was unfortunately both what I had expected hear, and exactly what I was dreading.
I want to highlight one particular portion of the post, written while discussing the format of upcoming Seasons and how they will work moving forward. In this particular paragraph, Luke Smith states "We believe that Destiny will grow even better when the world state can change, and that the best Destiny stories are the ones where “you had to be there when….". One half of this statement I cannot agree with more, and the other half seems completely wrong.
It is unequivocally true that Destiny will become a better game when its world changes and grows; while the overarching story of Destiny has seemed to stagnate over the course of the last five years, the world itself has continued to expand, and your team has added in tons of interesting new lore and activities (e.g. the Dreaming City) and have delved deeper into some of the community's favorite lore from Destiny 1 (e.g. the Thorn and Last Word quests and lore). Ada-1, the Drifter, Calus and the Menagerie, and many other characters and activities have entered the Destiny universe and have made it better while simultaneously adding to the flavor to the game, and this is all great.
The part of Luke's statement that I do [i]not[/i] agree with is that "the best Destiny stories are the ones where “you had to be there when…". In my humble opinion, the best Destiny stories are the ones that I shared both with myself, and my friends, on my own terms.
I didn't start playing Destiny until the Taken King was released, and I didn't jump into D2 until Forsaken launched. Some of the best times I've had playing both versions of Destiny were in activities such as Archon's Forge, the Prison of Elders, Gambit, and other expansion-specific activities. And these memories weren't made within a certain, dictated time frame.
These were experiences that I completed (both by myself and with my friends) often months (or even years) after these activities were first released into the Destiny universe. If some of each past expansion or Season's content (e.g. Archon's Forge or Gambit, for example) disappeared after a set time limit, I would have never had a chance to experience those things, make those memories, and build some of the amazing friendships that I have in my time with these games. As many other Destiny players can attest, we have jobs, school, families, and a million other distractions that take up time we would love to spend playing Destiny, and many of us often get left behind the learning (or in this case, content) curve that the game throws our way.
I understand that Destiny is an evolving franchise, an evolving universe, and I applaud your dedication to advancing this game and its content in dynamic, meaningful ways in future content releases. I could not disagree more strongly or wholeheartedly with the decision to remove this content after each Season (a.k.a. an arbitrary time limit, which will now be even shorter than the last year of Destiny due to four Seasons being included this year; more Seasons = good, less time to enjoy each Season's content before it drifts off into the ether forever = bad). As someone who has sunk hundreds and hundreds of hours into the Destiny franchise, through ups and downs and highs and lows, I want to state my humble opinion that this is a huge mistake, and I think you will alienate much of the player base with this decision and business model moving forward.
I am only one Guardian, but I think that a reevaluation of how to manage the upcoming Seasons of content would mean a lot, not just to me, but to a large portion of your player base as well. Some of us unfortunately don't have the luxury of enjoying our time with Destiny on a set schedule, and limiting the time that each player has to interact with certain activities (especially when they are not free, and let's face it, even though you are releasing New Light, Destiny 2 is far, [i]far[/i] from being a free-to-play game) is a mistake.
I can obviously never understand the technical, personnel, time, and monetary limitations that your team is struggling with on a daily basis, and let's not kid ourselves here: you are a game developer, and at the end of the day you need to make money in order to keep your company and Destiny alive. Although I understand that Shadowkeep is right around the corner, and the content in Season of the Undying is most-likely set in stone, I hope that you take the time to reconsider this decision for future content releases. I sincerely think that you are doing your game, and most importantly your community, a huge disservice by treating your new content as time-gated and expendable; my only hope is that you will reconsider this business model in the future.
*edit: thank you for all of the responses guys. I understand that there are people who don’t necessarily agree that this is a bad thing, and there may be some valid reasons why, but it seems like the vast majority of people don’t think that this is the best way to move the franchise forward, and I still stand by what I said in the post originally. Bungie, I would urge you to listen to your player base and take into account the feedback they are giving you on this new style of content releases. Clearly, most people are not in support of this plan, and it is pretty obvious that there are plenty of legitimate reasons why this is not the best way forward for Destiny. Rethinking this decision would mean a lot to your community right now. Food for thought as we move into Shadowkeep and D2Y3.
Also, shouts out the community for the (mostly) constructive criticism and feedback. I appreciate everyone who added their feedback and opinions into the conversation.
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2 Replies"You had to be there when..." Queen Mara was still in Queen's Court, letting the story of the Dreaming City unfold one piece at a time, including the cutscene of Uldren's revival. Now anybody who returns there, including first time player will meet an empty seat. --- This is the one thing that has bothered me most about Forsaken, and suprisingly Season of the Drifter got it right with the Invitation of the Nine bounties.
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3 RepliesStopped reading at “thank you”
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6 RepliesI absolutely agree with this. If you can code Xûr to show up only on weekends and have random inventory and random location, then any amount of content can stay in a game as a static state despite the world around it changing. This isn't about changing meta or sandbox tuning or even a holiday event (however like Xûr, there's no reason for why they couldn't keep them intact for D1) we are talking about a playable activity that's also paid for. You can have a changing world while also keeping the aspects that change in a static form if you have the creativity and coding knowledge. For example, the vex invading the moon will also disappear with the activity, which is similar to the Swords of Crota or House of Wolves invading. Now if the vex being on the moon was all that was changing I wouldn't care as much, but for this example, why don't you just make a simple story mission or adventure that introduces the start of the Vex invading the moon and another illustrating how we stopped them and are no longer there? That way people who missed out on the season have a way to experience what it was like without simply removing the experience indefinitely. The story has to have a way to be revisited, moving forward should never get in the way of that. The [i]journey[/i] is just as important as the direction or destination. That of course brings up the concern about the Dreaming City. If we do break the curse, then does that mean the cycle is over? If we are stuck on week 1 from that point forward, that would prevent us from experiencing most of what made the Dreaming City so cool in the first place, and to that end remove paid content. This is the logic Luke Smith has illustrated and it's clearly problematic and digging a grave for the franchise's future. I will also state this: telling my friends about things I did in a game, become infinitely less interesting if I also have to say "you had to be there". It's a video game, not real life. If you build a game and have once in a lifetime events and experiences, on the one hand it sounds nice, but sooner or later you realize it was a mistake. That's poor game design if it can't last. Imagine how much money got wasted decorating and designing the holiday events in D1, now to never be seen in game again because we "moved on". All I'm saying is, if someone hyped up a game to me with all these awesome stories of things they did, then I want to experience them too. To be told they removed them from the game because the story evolved and they were no longer relevant activities, yeah no. That's disappointing. I like keeping what I pay for. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about game breaking stuff like the loot cave, or crucible laser tag. That stuff will change in any game. I'm also not talking about small surprise events like the Siva outbreak and the OWL Sector ARG. Those were simply to hype us into the next expansion and you can't recreate those experiences, although the narrative aspect can and should still be accessible. Looking at Luke Smith's example of Black Armory under this new direction, the intro for Ada coming to the tower with a countdown is a one time experience you can't recreate. However removing her entirely, and the space, and the armory activity? That's where I draw the line. That's content that doesn't have to vanish just because we focus on a new story. That's also a waste of money to go through the trouble of designing the experience just to remove it later. Do not support bad game design, Bungie needs to listen to this
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3 RepliesThe closer we get to SK launch, the less I want to have it...
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3 RepliesGame companies are using dope dealer tactics now. They no longer care about long term clients; as those clients begin to expect things due to an established relationship. These companies would rather pull in thousands of potential clients with free samples.. Hoping each of them ends up buying a hit in the future. Casual players who occasionally buy stuff are preferred over hardcore players who complain.
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9 RepliesImagine creating a game where you have zero competition for sales. You create a world, enemy races, story, guns, game modes, guns, super abilities etc and not one game from any company has anything similar Sounds great right? You’ve just cornered the market with a kind of game nobody has seen or played before Now imagine taking every great idea in that game and sitting in an office thinking up new ways to ruin it and alienate your playerbase so your numbers continue to dwindle This is what destiny has become. Not the great game is should have been from the start, but a poor shadow of what it once was See, change is good m. But only when you make things better. What bungie have done and are continuing to do is make changes that are worse What should have happened is keeping everything from D1 and just add the good changes, like ledge grab. Ripping out portions of the game and then selling them back at a later date isn’t good business. Catering to streamers isn’t good business. Adding a battle pass and heading this game in the fortnite direction isn’t good business In short, if you have a niche that nobody can compete with, you’ve already won so don’t break it
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2 RepliesYou say "you had to be there when..." aren't the best stories But this forum, and YouTube and reddit are filled with people reminiscing about what they used to do in d1 How they used to push atheon off the ledge Or how great VoG was Or how fun running gjallarhorn was Or when they first ran into the abyss in crotas end Or how they would grind the omnigul strike for grasp of reskin Or when they fought the siva iron lords Or when they got their first exotic. It seems like most of what we tell new Guardians are fond memories of old, You had to be there when moments
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12 RepliesEdited by Yantelope: 8/30/2019 2:04:54 AMIt just reeks of them copying Fortnite. They want people to be all glued to twitch for one time events that are never going to happen again because it's working for Fortnite. Battlepass is working for Fortnite so they have to do that too. Trying to copy Fornite will kill this game because me and almost everyone else who plays D2 hates Fortnite.
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18 RepliesThis is the end. Most of the players I used to play with are leaving. This 'seasons' news is horrible. Im not getting Shadowkeep.
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8 RepliesTL;DR They’re adding fortnite battle pass that you gotta pay for, but far more scummy where it doesn’t let you earn premium currency (sliver). Of course, they’re too greedy to just be content with that, so you also have to pay for seasonal updates which will be removed shortly after releasing. And the greed doesn’t stop here; the cash shop will not only remain, but be even more egregious with many paywalled items including the vast majority of finishers (alongside cosmetics) that you need to pay for shadowkeep in order to be able to pay for them (finishers) in eververse. also, shadowkeep will also be temporary content that you [u]rent[/u] as destiny transitions into a single, evolving FOMO scam.
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12 RepliesThe install size for Shadowkeep is going to be 165 GB. That’s over 1/4 the size of the hard drive that base PS4s shipped with. Also the way the game works it has to load all in game objects into memory. Modern PCs have The horsepower to wallpaper over these issues. This generation of consoles don’t. Load times are painfully long right now and it’s only going to get worse over time: TLDR: People need to stop second-guessing Bungie in this. These machines have real technical limitations (they were underpowered when they debuted 6 years ago) and they are wheezing under the strain that this game and others like it are putting on them. They simply weren’t designed to play games like this. And trying to grow this game indefinitely will simply take us to a point where the game becomes unplayable and just starts crashing older machines.
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They never planned d2 having a y3 Imo! And this new y3 system just shows that they've no idea what they're doing, especialy now that they're independent. They just want a system that gives them the max possible profit VS the smallest amount of effort/investment into creating new content for 1 year. Luke Smith kinda assumed this.. Tbh.. I'm realy disappointed how they're leading the game future..
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It took me until after forsaken launched to get EP shottie to drop. This seasonal content deletion would have made that impossible until bungie decided to "add those rewards later". I like that I will be able to earn stuff later if I decide not to purchase a season "battle pass". I don't like that if I pay extra for a season I only have access to that content for a couple months.
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HEAR HEAR!
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A Battle Pass... Sigh
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Preach !
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4 RepliesEdited by ColumboWormGod: 8/30/2019 5:52:49 PMI see why they want to do it and I like the idea. I humbly disagree. It’s just like the different meta’s. Think of games like WoW or diablo. Part of the charm is continuing forward and limited time events etc. Think about the vex mythoclast meta of destiny. There are so many people even now saying, “I WAS THERE”. And same with the laser tag weekend. There are things that you can say you were there for and impress people. Plus, people who leave often and don’t stick with the game are going to lose out on things. You yourself admitted that you came during forsaken. This most likely means, like most of the player base, you didn’t do all the leviathan raids, Osiris prophecy weapons, the warmind elemental things for the sparrow etc. There’s so much content that just goes to waste because it’s old. And I think that’s what they are trying to avoid. Think things like EP or blind well. They are fun activities and have great rewards. But they eventually expire and become irrelevant. Just bringing up the light is a shortcut and only negatively changes the games landscape. I have so many friends who refuse to play because, “There’s too much to do and I’ll be so behind!”. There’s so much stuff that it alienates a good majority of the community. Think about a new player coming right now. They have gambit, reckoning, dreaming city, forsaken, forges, dungeons, raids, pinnacle weapons, armor sets. Menagerie, the tribute hall, gambit prime, the secret quests, the vanilla game, Osiris, prophecy weapons, EP, blind well, and all the questlines that come with it. They get overwhelmed and give up. Somehow, someway, Destiny 2 went from having next to no content, to having TOO MUCH CONTENT. Not to mention Bungie needs more money to stay afloat and better player numbers. So by doing this, they introduce FOMO and motivate players to do these activities and earn rewards through them. This not only helps people discover the game, but also helps keep players engaged and motivated to play and do things. People like yourself will be more motivated to play the game instead of taking massive breaks in between. And finally, the problem that is most important. Space. At the end of the year, Destiny 2 will be nearing 164 gigabites. Things like Xbox and PS4 have limitations to how much space a game can take up and destiny 2 is nearing that limit. They can’t continue making this evolving world because they are right. It’s not sustainable. But through doing this, they can significantly lengthen the life span of destiny 2 before they will be forced to move onto Destiny 3.
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You seem to forget the technical aspects he talked about in season 3. Destiny 2 is a big game. The size of which isn't infinite. You can't just keep adding, and keep expecting the game to act right. After shadowkeep, you might want them to add another expansion. Maybe something to hold off till destiny 3. However without letting things go, it's just not going to be possible. So you need to ask what do you want. The seasonal activities to stay, and then no more content, or seasonal activities that happen for that season, but you keep getting new content.
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Edited by DoctorMcCoy1701: 8/30/2019 3:20:36 PMI've never understood the "we have jobs so Bungie make the game easy" argument. Destiny is and always has been a grindy game, that's the point of it. It is no different from World of Warcraft or Diablo. Requesting for Bungie to allow you to completely sidestep the primary purpose of Destiny is absurd.
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2 RepliesLook, the activities that are going away aren't going to be things that people are super into months after release. There is nothing wrong with "you had to be there" activities...many games do that successfully. These activites aren't raids or story missions, it's a specifically curated event of a season, not expansion content, not endgame activities. People just don't know what to expect yet exactly and are therefore apprehensive, which is understandable. But I actually think this will make people more interested in the game as a hobby, which is their stated goal for the last year. If you can't be there for it, you don't have to buy ot, each season is sold individually now. I can't wait for Shadowkeep and the new seasons because I think people are going to have a much better time than they expect. Feedback is great, and thanks for sharing yours, but its premature. If it releases and it sucks, be sure to let Bungie know.
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2 Replies[quote]Hey Bungie, First off, I want to say "thank you" for your recent communication with the community regarding Destiny's past, present, and future. Regardless of how each player feels about the content of your messages, the transparency is both refreshing and appreciated, and today's post was no exception. I was one of the many people posting in the forums and on Reddit wanting to know more about the structure and implementation of future Season content, and getting a response on that topic well ahead of Shadowkeep's release is exactly what we were looking for (or at least I was). While I do appreciate your continued honesty, and the information you presented to us in the post today, it was unfortunately both what I had expected hear, and exactly what I was dreading. I want to highlight one particular portion of the post, written while discussing the format of upcoming Seasons and how they will work moving forward. In this particular paragraph, Luke Smith states "We believe that Destiny will grow even better when the world state can change, and that the best Destiny stories are the ones where “you had to be there when….". One half of this statement I cannot agree with more, and the other half seems completely wrong. It is unequivocally true that Destiny will become a better game when its world changes and grows; while the overarching story of Destiny has seemed to stagnate over the course of the last five years, the world itself has continued to expand, and your team has added in tons of interesting new lore and activities (e.g. the Dreaming City) and have delved deeper into some of the community's favorite lore from Destiny 1 (e.g. the Thorn and Last Word quests and lore). Ada-1, the Drifter, Calus and the Menagerie, and many other characters and activities have entered the Destiny universe and have made it better while simultaneously adding to the flavor to the game, and this is all great. The part of Luke's statement that I do [i]not[/i] agree with is that "the best Destiny stories are the ones where “you had to be there when…". In my humble opinion, the best Destiny stories are the ones that I shared both with myself, and my friends, on my own terms. I didn't start playing Destiny until the Taken King was released, and I didn't jump into D2 until Forsaken launched. Some of the best times I've had playing both versions of Destiny were in activities such as Archon's Forge, the Prison of Elders, Gambit, and other expansion-specific activities. And these memories weren't made within a certain, dictated time frame. These were experiences that I completed (both by myself and with my friends) often months (or even years) after these activities were first released into the Destiny universe. If some of each past expansion or Season's content (e.g. Archon's Forge or Gambit, for example) disappeared after a set time limit, I would have never had a chance to experience those things, make those memories, and build some of the amazing friendships that I have in my time with these games. As many other Destiny players can attest, we have jobs, school, families, and a million other distractions that take up time we would love to spend playing Destiny, and many of us often get left behind the learning (or in this case, content) curve that the game throws our way. I understand that Destiny is an evolving franchise, an evolving universe, and I applaud your dedication to advancing this game and its content in dynamic, meaningful ways in future content releases. I could not disagree more strongly or wholeheartedly with the decision to remove this content after each Season (a.k.a. an arbitrary time limit, which will now be even shorter than the last year of Destiny due to four Seasons being included this year; more Seasons = good, less time to enjoy each Season's content before it drifts off into the ether forever = bad). As someone who has sunk hundreds and hundreds of hours into the Destiny franchise, through ups and downs and highs and lows, I want to state my humble opinion that this is a huge mistake, and I think you will alienate much of the player base with this decision and business model moving forward. I am only one Guardian, but I think that a reevaluation of how to manage the upcoming Seasons of content would mean a lot, not just to me, but to a large portion of your player base as well. Some of us unfortunately don't have the luxury of enjoying our time with Destiny on a set schedule, and limiting the time that each player has to interact with certain activities (especially when they are not free, and let's face it, even though you are releasing New Light, Destiny 2 is far, [i]far[/i] from being a free-to-play game) is a mistake. I can obviously never understand the technical, personnel, time, and monetary limitations that your team is struggling with on a daily basis, and let's not kid ourselves here: you are a game developer, and at the end of the day you need to make money in order to keep your company and Destiny alive. Although I understand that Shadowkeep is right around the corner, and the content in Season of the Undying is most-likely set in stone, I hope that you take the time to reconsider this decision for future content releases. I sincerely think that you are doing your game, and most importantly your community, a huge disservice by treating your new content as time-gated and expendable; my only hope is that you will reconsider this business model in the future.[/quote] Using honesty and bungle are laughable, company is shady (remember do throttling during double xp week) still the same core pulling the strings. They wordsmith well, only time will tell if they are really honest. And no they have not earned the benefit of doubt
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I'm not sure which is longer: this post or the post this post is referencing.
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3 RepliesThey won’t reconsider this direction. Know why? Because it’s pretty industry standard now and the way gaming continues to head. They wouldn’t do it if it didn’t work. But it does. And Bungie is still a company looking to make money at the end of the day. I think we’ve been lucky Bungie is this late to the game. For all that people complain about something like Eververse, we’ve had a few great years of the least egregious MTXs I’ve seen in a game. But these things are changing now and while we gained some nice things when Activision left, more MTXs and now battle passes are also a product of that too.
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Well said, although at this point I’m not sure they can keep all activities around indefinitely simply due to constraints. To only add is wonderful but not sustainable according to them.
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1 ReplyVery nice post. I’m shocked. That said you give too much weight to words that have no legal value. I understand you try to build a case using Bungie’s own statements, but I’m afraid it’s not going to do. They’re actually not part of a publicly listed entity anymore and the license agreement is very clear: we own nothing, and have no rights whatsoever on what we own or preorder. Anything that is shown is “susceptible to changes”. They can discontinue the whole game today and we all can stfu. Sarcasms apart they are in a very bad spot financially, so Luke is only trying to use statements that will increase the “fear of missing out” for the like casino and gambling addicts. The very minority of players who got laughed at for pre ordering the past annual pass but continue to show little resilience. You also can’t expect an evolving world really. They can add bits and pieces of activities, set a new meta using a patch, but nothing is actually ever evolving, despite their claims. We’re playing the same recycled content over and over and over again. Same enemies, same doctrines, same destinations, same weapons, same gears, same everything but less power. They have much less staff, budget, and on top of that they have to self publish and deliver games for other clients. It’s already very hard for them to make content under normal circumstances, so it’s quiet unrealistic to expect anything in the current framework.
