More than D1 at launch, less than D1 after RoI. Which shouldn't be the case. D2 should have started out with the same amount of content that D1 had at the end of its life span, then added to it. D2 should not have been a "start at square one" game.

Have you lost your mind? Destiny 1 was the result of three years, FOUR DLCs including one nearly as large as the vanilla game, and numerous free updates. Insisting that a new game should have as much content as a three year old game is just ridiculous.

What are your thoughts on this? You've always got very insightful things to say.

My thoughts are that Destiny 2 is a new game. People keep wanting to think of it as "Destiny 1.5"....keep trying to relate to it as "Destiny 1.5"...and a lot of the negativity you're hearing right now is people finally waking up to the fact that this is a NEW GAME. A game that continues the Destiny universe....but a new game. As a new game, Destiny 2 is so VASTLY superior to Destiny 1, it blows the mind. There is tons more to do. Its end-game is better designed. Crucible is more balanced. Its progression systems and economy work VASTLY better than Vanilla Destiny. THIS is where you see the impact of what Bungie has learned over the last 3 years. But Bungie had to take a step backwards in terms of game features, because there were many core systems of Destiny 1 that were broken. The networking. The weapon system. The fact that you so many currencies that had absolutely no uses beyond a certain point. Crucible was so broken by the end of Destiny 1s life, that Bungie basically had to blow it up, and rebuild it from scratch. But Bungie also learned form its mistakes here is well. It redesigned it in a way that it was more stable and more easily balanceable...and that PVP-oriented sandbox changes would have far less impact on PVE. But more importantly, they are taking the time to make sure that the game's redesigned systems WORK PROPERLY this time.....before they start piling a lot of features on top. No more FOURTEEN playlists in PVP....and a player base so thinly spread that the game winds up struggling to make quality matches. NO more loop holes that streamers and YT content creators can exploit to break the game's progression system. Compared to Destiny 1, Destiny 2 is a SIMPLER game....but one that is so much better, and well-thoughout in its design that its jaw-dropping. How far Bungie has come in making a game like this, in so short a time.

I hear what you're saying, but I'm still not convinced. Bottom line for me is that there's nothing new in this game, and so much has been removed from the Destiny that we've been playing for years that I feel somewhat cheated and pretty disappointed. Something else too. I know it's dumb. But how can they call it D2 and the ghost doesn't know what the Taken are...? It's like we haven't been playing at all. So dumb. After you hit like 280 you have every weapon in the game. Wtf? And now we have Factions... But for what? Armor? That looks bland and boring? As I've stated the character modeling looks terrible. And what will faction weapons do that our current guns can't? Another piece to this is that I did a lot in D1 to collect stuff, and show off that I had a high grim, and unlock all the app stuff, etc. There's none of that in this game. No reason to play at all other than to mindlessly shoot things...

[quote]Bottom line for me is that there's nothing new in this game[/quote] Factually incorrect statement. You may not LIKE what 's new. You may not ENJOY what is new in this game. But to say there is "nothing new" in this game is incorrect and unfair. [quote]and so much has been removed from the Destiny that we've been playing for years that I feel somewhat cheated and pretty disappointed. [/quote] Probably because you haven't taken the time to stop to ask WHY those things were removed. Because the truth is that most of the things that were removed were either things that didn't work properly in the original game. Got in the way of fixing other things that didn't work properly....or were aspects of the game that the majority of the community didn't like. [quote]But how can they call it D2 and the ghost doesn't know what the Taken are...? It's like we haven't been playing at all. So dumb. [/quote] In an adventure on Io, our Ghost makes reference to the Book of Shadows, so it very much knows what the Taken are. So I have no idea what you're talking about here. [quote]After you hit like 280 you have every weapon in the game[/quote] My characters are 280 power in their best gear, and I'm nowhere near having every weapon in the game. I'm still getting new weapons everyday...still leveling up the ones I have through infusion...and discovering new builds and ways to use the ones I have. [quote]And now we have Factions... But for what? Armor? That looks bland and boring? As I've stated the character modeling looks terrible. And what will faction weapons do that our current guns can't? [/quote] No this is---once again----unfair criticism. This just sounds to me like you're playing the wrong KIND of game. Like you're demanding, or seeking some sort of experience that this KIND of game simply isn't able to provide. That is "once again" an expectations problem. The factions will be introducing new armor and weapons into the loot pool. Faction rally will probably be an ongoing Iron Banner-like PVE end-game event...and Bungie's artists are some of the very best in the business. Their art direction is award-winning. [quote]No reason to play at all other than to mindlessly shoot things...[/quote] Its a shooter game. If you don't enjoy the act of SHOOTING things, then you are simply playing the WRONG GAME...and that is NOT Bungie's fault. Like I said, it sound like you want something that this game----or any other game like it----simply can't provide. ..and that's not the game's fault. This game has lots of armour and weapons to collect...but you're not interested. There is no Grimoire in this game, because the community DEMANDED that the story and the lore be brought INTO the game...and Bungie did what we asked. Bottomline, this is a new game...and a dfferent game...and you are NOT going to be able to engage with in the same ways you did Destiny 1. You're either going to need to find out what this game has to offer, and find a way to enjoy it.....or move on.

I have heard the ghost say 'what is this stuff' when I approached a Taken thing. Idk Kelly. I think you may change your mind soon. Faction gear and weapons are LITERALLY the exact same thing we already have, or have dismantled. Also, legendary shards mean nothing. Oh and Xur is even more pointless than he ever was. Lol

[quote]Faction gear and weapons are LITERALLY the exact same thing we already have, or have dismantled. [/quote] There has always been that element in this game...and that element in EVERY loot-based game. Which is why you never BOND with the loot in a game like this. Your relationship is always with the character. Legendary shards are the means by which you increase the power of other legendary gear....and right now the power of my alternate builds are being limited by the fact that I'm short of them. Bottomline, is that there is NOTHING in this game that is "pointless". The only issue is whether or not you---or anyone else----is willing to engage the game on that level...and whether or not they enjoy that part of the game. I've been playing loot-based games for 20 years, and I enjoy the horizontal progression aspects of these games. The fun of putting together alternate builds, and finding new and interesting ways to play through the game's content. But the fact is that some people simply crave more novelty than I do....and replaying familiar content in new ways is not something they enjoy. But that is not the GAME's fault. Because that player is asking for an experience that this game----or ANY game of this type---is not designed to provide. Its like going into a hardware store, and getting annoyed that you can't fined a loaf of bread.

Basically what you've said is that D2 is a game you play like once a month.... I'm going to max my three characters and most likely put it down. I just really don't care for it. Sad about it.

On going franchises should always IMPROVE on the previous games, not detract from them. Destiny 1 wasn't a complete game until Rise of Iron came out. Three years before a game is whole? That's not acceptable, and anyone that thinks it's fine are the ones that have lost their minds and are the sole reason that publishers like Activision and EA get away with cash grabs like that. Defending that only makes the problem worse.

More isn't better. Only better is better. Bungie removed features from the game that were either breaking the game.....or complicating the process of FIXING core game systems that did not work properly int he first game. FIXING those systems makes the game better. Not building a castle on a foundation of sand.

Making things better is like selling someone a car and then selling the sound system to them separately. Even without the sound system, the car is still whole. Destiny 2, however, is like selling someone a car with half the engine and saying "don't worry, the rest of it is coming later". The problem with what you're saying is that Bungie removed features, but that DIDN'T make the game better. The game isn't completely bad, there are some things that actually ARE better. But there's a myriad of things that are not, and it's blatantly obvious if you stop pretending they don't exist. At the point we're at now, Destiny 2 would have been better off if it had been a Destiny 1 DLC. It's not a complete game, and it shouldn't take three years after release to become a complete game. That's what was WRONG with Destiny 1. No one considered Destiny 1 to be even a semblance of a complete game until Taken King came out. Destiny 1 should have had all the content of up to and including Taken King at release, then Rise of Iron was an addition to that. Destiny 2 is NOT up to those standards. It is, at best, Destiny 1 plus Dark Below, and I would go so far as to say it's less than that.

You can't equate software with a manufactured good like a car. A car manufacturer can completely control every aspect of building the car, and---because of driving laws----someone operating a car has very limited freedom in ways that they can interact with the car without risking either criminal or civil liability. IOW, a car can be very readily idiot-proofed. Making a video game, OTOH, is a creative act. Its is like painting a picture or composing a piece of music. There is a technical aspect----writing cod----but everything else is creative. You can't automate or regiment creativity like you can designing and building a car. Also----once a software developer turns the program loose to the public----they lose control (minus the terms of use/user license) over what the consumer does with it. So its a lot harder to "idiot proof" a game than it is a car. Plus you have people (streamers and content creators) who have a FINANCIAL INCENTIVE to try to find every way possible to BREAK major aspects of the game. So you have people who are DELIBERATELY trying to find ways of interacting with the program in unforeseen or unpredicted ways in order to get it to stop working properly. Lastly, you have all the uncontrolled variables. People with homes whose electricity isn't wired properly. People with low quality or improperly function routers. People with poor quality or low-bandwith internet. People trying to play with people all over the world so you have prolonged or unpredictable ping times. All of these things can interact with a program in ways the developer couldn't have predicted....and the nature of computer software is that---unless you PREDICT these occurences and tell the program what to do when they happen..... ...the program either does nothing....or does something you don't want. Its not like a person who can figure out what to do in this unforeseen situation. You jjust get a program that crashes, freezes, or does something unwanted (bug). So, once again, the issue is that people bring unrealistic, and unmeetable expectations to these situations. Mainly because they either can't---or won't----see past their own point of view and their own immediate desires. The fact is that Destiny 2 is a game that has had several MAJOR systems redesigned in order to FIX major problems with the first game. Major problems WE as a community demanded that they fix ("Fix your game Bungie!") Bungie has made a good faith effort to fix these problems...and is doing the responsible thing. Making sure that the redesigned parts of the game work properly IN THE WILD....before piling lots of extraneous shit on top of them. (ONe of the big mistakes they made with Destiny 1). It is not Bungie's fault that some people lack the ability to delay gratification to allow this process to play itself out, so that we wind up with a game that works RIGHT in the long term. Rather than another broken game that gives us what we want NOW...but doesn't work right.

You keep talking like this is Bungie's first game. It's not. They've had THREE YEARS of experience running what amounts to the same game. And what we got from that experience is compounded problems that existed in the FIRST game. There are a multitude of things they could have done to improve the servers and connection methods from the first game, and they FAILED to do so. You can blame it on people's routers or electricity, but what do you say when people with top of the line Internet connections have the EXACT SAME ISSUES? I had connection issues in Destiny 1 from time to time. They're WORSE in Destiny 2. That's BACKWARDS progression, not forward, and backwards is a BAD THING. The major bugs and crashes that are happening shouldn't be happening, not on standardized consoles. The PC version is where your hardware variables come into play that cause issues, and that's not even released yet. All these issues are happening to people ON THE SAME SYSTEM. Every Xbox and every Playstation is exactly the same as every other Xbox and Playstation. So what happened? Bungie didn't test their game before they launched? That's unacceptable, no matter which way you spin it. Then you go on with people's patience with the game? So the game's going to be better in three years? Why are we playing it now? Why doesn't Bungie pull the game back into development for another three years then release it when it IS good? This attitude that you have is exactly what I'm talking about. You wouldn't pay full price for half of a car, or ANYTHING else, why do you want to do it for a video game? And if a car doesn't work for you, why don't you go pay full price for a loaf of bread, and be happy when they hand you three slices then tell you you can buy the rest in a month? Or going to a restaurant and ordering a meal, then they charge you extra for cooking it? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE LOGICAL SENSE. You can substitute ANYTHING into this, the principle remains the same. You are an IDIOT to constantly buy into this marketing scheme over and over again. And they will keep doing it over and over again, because you people are STUPID to be constantly drawn into this trap.

[quote]You keep talking like this is Bungie's first game.[/quote] Its Bungie's SECOND game. Prior to this, EVERY game that Bungie has ever made has either been your basic first-person shooter....or a third-person shooter (Oni). Destiny was a HUGE risk on the part of Bungie because they had absolutely no experience in making MMO-like games, or ANY sort of RPG games. They just took this giant leap of faith of putting these kinds of elements into the kind of shooter game they were used to making...and HOPING it would all work out...and in many ways it DIDN'T. While in other ways it succeeded SPECTACULARLY. But the reality is that Bungie has had to learn how to design and manage the systems that are basic to most MMOs and action-RPGs while ON THE JOB...and under the GLARE of intense public scrutiny and criticism. To their credit, they didn't back down....and they bounced back and learned from the (many) mistakes they made. While the community---and Blizzard----helped to teach them how to make, and manage this kind of game. Destiny 2 is the first chance that Bungie has had to fully apply what they have learned over the last three years...and probably the first time to fully realize their intial vision of what they wanted Destiny to be. The issue here is that Bungie is presenting elements of game types to shooter gamers that they are simply NOT familiar with, and as a result they bring unrealistic expectations to this. NO MMO is EVER released in its final form. EVERY MMO is always a work in progress...and changes and evolves over time. EVERY MMO---in its release version---is a "beta". If you want a game that is in its fully-realized form...and is this "unchanging" thing. YOU ARE PLAYING THE WRONG KIND OF GAME. You want a story driven RPG like Mass Effect....or you want a campaign shooter like Halo. But persistent world games like this are ALWAYS "living" systems. They are always rolled out...and additional content and features are added over time. As well as having features get taken out, or are rotated in-and-out of the game world in order to keep them fresh.....or to give the developer the opportunity to make changes to them. Especially in a situation like this where MAJOR parts of the game that didn't work in Destiny 1, had to be redesigned for Destiny 2...and it would have been stupid on Bungie's part to blindly repeat the same mistakes they made with Destiny 1. By building tons of features on top of core game systems that they are not sure will work as intended in the wild. Instead they took the sensible and responsible posture of taking a couple of steps back.....making sure that the redesigns work out. THEN having a stable foundation to add features in the future, without having to keep going back and FIXING things because they still dont' work right.