[quote] For Destiny 2, It seems everyone at Bungie is (finally) starting to get on the same page. With The Crucible being completely redesigned around a weapons system that won't require the sort of balancing they failed at in DEstiny 1.[/quote] Part of the problem I and I'm sure many others have is that they went about this in a way we had hoped they would avoid. Rather than making the game more like Halo, I wanted them to make the game more dynamic, play at a faster pace, etc. like it did in Y1. I totally get the argument. In D1, the PVE sandbox and the PVP sandbox were playing tug of war. And for Two years, the PVP sandbox team won and won emphatically. Now it seems like they have made a game purpose built to continue to allow PVP to effectively continue to dictate balance. And therein lies my issues. It doesn't need to be tug of war between PVE and PVP. There is a different, and I would argue, a better way - full separation. Even now, we get no guarantees that PVE and PVP won't be effected by balancing changes made for the sake of one side (PVP). And if they do separate the balance of the two (by tweaking anything other than damage), then it effectively destroys the consistency argument they have trumpeted over the last 2+ years. Bottom line is that they have to pick consistency or embrace separation. In D2, they've seemed to pick consistency, which could still cause issues. Remember that this current sandbox team had a tough time balancing primary v. primary weapons in Y1. So just because the game now limits you to effectively two primaries makes it easier to balance - but doesn't guarantee that there won't be any balancing issues which can then bleed over and negatively effect PVE. None of us can honestly say whether this change is actually going to be a good thing until we see it handled. And if we continue to see changes for the sake of PVP that negatively effect PVE, I can see D2 dying a quick death because PVE players are so fed up with dealing with negative consequences of PVP balancing - and D2 starts out of the box with having PVE at least CHANGED for the sake of PVP. IMO, It would have been nice to see Bungie go with a safe pick and just completely and emphatically bifurcate the two and minimize to the Nth degree any crossover which may occur. The fact that Bungie didn't address this issue in the reveal, and has only talked about it cryptically in side interviews, to me, seems like they failed to address a GIGANTIC white elephant sitting in the middle of the room.

There are not guarentees in any of this. Just opportunities. The problem with Destiny 1 was that the game was never going to do what the Sandbox team wanted it to do...and they damn near broke the game trying to force the issue. The changes that they've made to Destiny 2 will ***allow*** everyone to get what they NEED....even if they don't get what they want. It means that I don't get to play PVP that is the fast-paced blend of Titanfall and Overwatch that was the vanilla game. But then I haven't been able to play that game for two years now any way. But the changes will ***allow*** Bungie to get the more Halo-meets-Overwatch play that they want. While not having to nerf everything into the ground. Because the key to the Halo formula is that the you don't have to BALANCE the OHK weapons with the rest of the game. Since they function as short-lived power-ups. Like Heavy weapons in Destiny 1. Or "Kill-streaks" in Call of Duty. By relegating all the OHK weapons in Destiny to the power-weapon slot....Bungie won't have to nerf their power in order to adjust their impact to PVP. All they'll need to do is adjust the spawn timers for power ammo in PVP....or tweak the amount of ammo that said drops give. Which will have little-if-any impact on PVE....and Bungie is *FREE* to make these weapons as power and unique as we want them. Like I said, no guarantees that Bungie won't screw this up. But we are finally in a position where they are working with a game whose DESIGN is compatible with how they want the game to play. They just need to get the tuning right. But the tuning is now working WITH that design....and not against it.

[quote] But the tuning is now working WITH that design....and not against it.[/quote] I can agree with that. It seems like the tuning will be in line with how they wanted the game to play out. It just bugs me because Bungie wanted to break from microsoft because they wanted to do something different from Halo. So they quit and made Destiny, which seemed to be a polar opposite of Halo, only to make it more like Halo in the long run. Would have been nice to see them break out of their comfort zone doing something different than going back to their old-school formula. And again, agree with your analysis as far as not having to balance OHK weapons with primaries, etc. but my concern is that this current sandbox has never been particularly good at balancing in Destiny, period. Let me play devil's advocate for a moment and discuss ONE issue which could remain a problem: the balance between exotics and legendary weapons. You have seen the same board posts as I have - people want exotics to feel exotic AND powerful again like they did in Y1. But does anyone consider how this goal will be met in D2? If we're limited to two primaries, everyone is going to have to have at least ONE exotic primary equipped, and then there is the potential that some exotic primaries simply overpower combat in the way that OG Suros did in Y1 (powerful in close quarters as well as long range - and was superior to SR's at range). To prevent that from happening, exotics will necessarily have to be toned down to be more in line with primary weapons. But how does that, then, impact PVE? Can we have both FUN and EXCITING exotics in PVE that are balanced in PVP? I still don't believe we can because what will make those guns fun and exciting in PVE are what will make them unbalanced in PVP. So they can do two things: They can water down exotics again in D2, or they can tune them separately in PVE vs. PVP (tuned as in adjusting OTHER stat attributes that effect weapon performance - other than damage, which they have already been able to do since HoW). If they tune them separately, As I would advocate for, doesn't that throw the consistency argument right out the window? And if that is the intended route you wish to go, then why keep PVE and PVP tethered together at all? To me, it just doesn't make sense. The other alternative, again, is just more watered down exotics, which still goes against what people want out of the PVE experience. I just don't see that the new loadout system resolved ALL the problems. It resolved ONE problem, but other problems like exotic v. primary power are still going to persist, and can still potentially cause issues in PVE. We'll have to see how it plays out once they start releasing patches, but it is entirely foreseeable that PVP could still negatively impact PVE, even with the current format they presented in D2. And that doesn't excite me at all.

Oh I get it, believe me. In my best Dr. Phil impression, "The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior." So this Sandbox team has TRULY earned the anxiety and distrust of the game's PVE community for their EPIC mismanagement of Destiny 1s sandbox, and their casual and at times callous disregard for even the most basic needs of the game's PVE players. Earned it and then some. Because they basically shit on this game's PvE players for two years running. So there are NO guarentees that they won't screw this up again. But the changes that they have made are an admission of failure....and hopefully the start of a more sensible management of the sandbox going forwards.