[quote] Its timing. You pop one early and then by the time you need more, the cool down has likely burnt off. The only time I ever stood around waiting for synth to cool down was at the area RIGHT before the boss fight when we wanted to make sure everyone was loaded up so we could take the boss out without any issues. [/quote] Usually in the beginning I try to have full ammo though, the exception being the strike right at the beginning of the list, or right as the raid starts. [quote] People tote Y2 as having more weapon/loadout diversity but it simply wasn't true IMO. I actually agree with you that its more fun to use a variety of weapons. In Y1, I used all the power weapons sure, but I also used OG Suros, Abyss Defiant, Word of Crota. To be perfectly honest, I basically used every weapon that felt good to me - because they were ALL really powerful and didn't suffer from inconsistency issues that Y2 weapons did. HC's were powerful and had more ammo in the mag and reserve. In Y2, AR's have too short range IMO to be viable (Probably why you use your sniper ammo so sparingly - you use it to take out ranged targets; I relied more on my scout and used sniper for hard targets), HC's suffered from RNG bloom, poor ammo economy, etc. Pulses were decent, but the choice between a PR and SR really boiled down to personal preference. I Preferred Scout Rifles, so there was really no need to run with anything BUT a scout rifle for over a year. THAT's boring. In Y1, I even had the choice between a sniper, shotgun, or FR. FR's were my favorite weapon early in vanilla till they got nerfed into the ground. I loved shotguns in PVE towards the end of TDB and HoW when they got a major buff. The inherent risk of getting that close with a shotgun was FINALLY worth the rewards in that era because 1-2 shots would take out a major. [/quote] To my great surprise I found several auto rifles I really enjoyed in Y2. I found this righteous vii with focus fire and two range perks that was just incredible. But it points to the issue. In Y2 the best primaries weren't just a few raid elemental primaries (the ONLY good part about losing elemental primaries) so dropped guns could get some real use, BUT you had to get lucky on rolls (meanwhile Hung Jury with an incredible PvE roll was available day 1). You needed a pretty awesome roll to beat that hung jury. But I got lucky and as a result used to carry several primaries between strikes just for a change of pace. Especially in strikes that were a lot more close quarters (thinking Phogoth, parts of Alak Hul, a lot of SABER, you get the idea). Most of the time the really long range strikes had me using my scout, which if I had to choose one primary would be my choice anyway so I liked that it was always viable. To this day I still use a shotgun pretty regularly in The. I miss the glory days but they're still way better than vanilla. Sniper rifles almost always get used just for majors at really long range and boss fights. They often feel like an empty slot for much of a strike, which is one thing that makes me think having a second primary would be more fun. I truly do still mourn fusion rifles though. Those were my bread and butter too before they were destroyed. I'm REALLY hoping turning them to power weapons will see a big buff. Doesn't look like initially though based on gameplay from the reveal, but I hold out hope. I loved those things. [quote] I honestly didn't notice too much of a difference between minion spawns in Y1 strikes vs. Y2 strikes other than Y2 strikes took a que from Skolas and only spawned minions at certain damage intervals based on boss health. So while you weren't constantly bombarded, you still faced large numbers of minions. The difference is that if you were REALLY smart about it, you could minimize their impact with a well placed rocket.... As for more mechanics? Part of the problem is that there was no variety in mechanics. The ones that weren't bullet sponges all had the same mechanic. You damage boss, he changes firing angles, spawns minions, you clear minions, damage boss, he moves - wash, rinse, repeat. Its fun and interesting after doing nothing but bullet sponges for Y1, but eventually even THOSE boss encounters grow old, which is why they need a LARGE variety of encounters. The problem is that because of the way these kinds of encounters function, you NEED to be able to DPS the boss and switch out to a heavy quickly for some crowd control. The problem is that they limit you to only one special/heavy, so you have to choose either DPS OR Crowd Control.[/quote] There is a huge difference in the amount of majors that spawn as adds, you can actually see it even today since the updated year 1 strikes did not actually seem to mess with the add mix, even when fallen became taken or something like that. Do a hard mode (or whatever they're calling it these days) Archon Priest or Omnigul or Phogoth and compare it to a hard mode Alak Hul or SABER. The Y1 bosses still sponge a lot more and the add waves are still super brutal, while the Y2+ bosses rely on some other silly wrinkle like the darkness in Alak Hul (whom you can totally take out with just primaries) with the darkness, or shield brothers bringing in two or SABER changing attack patterns, or Restorative Mind having only short dps phases. You still get adds of course, but it's nothing like Y1 bosses either in numbers or in number of adds. If they keep adds in D2 to the easy red variety, then supers, grenades, and your two primaries can handle them just fine. [quote] As for this - Supers never brought the same kind of firepower that your special/heavy brought you. They were really situational in Y2 because of how much they were watered down from Y1. When they scaled UP the AI HP in TTK to account for increased light levels, they didn't scale up supers until WELL later in the game (basically, by the time I quit the game) even though it was asked for repeatedly. I just don't trust Bungie to let our supers be really powerful again. And remember this: they even nerfed team synergy in Y2 by changing the different sizes of orbs you made and how much energy you got from each. Through most of Y2, damage supers often struggled to take out ONE single T2 major. I would literally be shocked if they made them so powerful you could take out multiple majors during a super. If supers only remain as powerful as they are now, then that leaves it up to teams to coordinate. That's fine for players with established teams like myself, but what about solo players in match made strikes where its every man for themselves? I'm not saying it can't work, but I do have serious, legitimate concerns about D2 and the new weapon reordering system. You cant SERIOUSLY state that you can adequately replace the firepower of a heavy or special weapon with a primary weapon. And in high end content, I can just see how the lower DPS potential can be a huge limiting factor. Think Golgoroth and how often you had to switch out to your LMG because you ran short/out of Spindle ammo in the middle of a damage phase. Even with the damage buff from the well of light, primaries didn't even come CLOSE to replacing the DPS from either weapon. I'm just not too excited about having to try to take down strike bosses with primary weapons - especially when I see vids of guys shooting these bosses for 10 minutes just to get them to half health. That's not fun for ANYONE.[/quote] For add control, the year 2 supers that were added absolutely brought the same firepower, and much more, as a special/heavy. Especially with even two people coordinating so lots of orbs are properly generated. In undying mind, both the long stair climb against yellow vex, if you get that pull, and the yellow adds in the boss are totally killable using just supers. Now we see old supers getting buffed in D2 (FoH is now roaming, golden gun can have 6 shots) AND looking to be more effective against bosses. So already we can see that supers are being buffed for D2. If it's not enough that is a worry, but it might be enough. But I don't seriously think I can replace a special and heavy with an energy and a special in terms of short term DPS. What I think is that for just DPSing the boss, I usually only use my special OR my heavy, but rarely both. If adds are manageable with just kinetic, energy, and abilities then I haven't really lost much. Indeed with old specials getting at least an ammo boost and maybe more I'm arguably gaining firepower in situations where I'd only use a special. Your concerns are valid. I can see them screwing this up easily. I can also see the, getting this right, based on things they've actually done already. We need the beta before we can really have a chance of knowing for sure though so until then I'm trying to focus on the positives I think we can count on.

Yeah I agree with you. For the most part ammo is just individualized in PvE. If you mean the crates, that's a great question.

There were a lot of fights where you didn't need special and heavy but there were trash pulls I'd have loved to have two primaries.

I haven't found it takes a whole magazine too much, but I've always tended to put the barrel right up against whatever I was shooting with it. At any kind of actual range you're probably right. Still, in burns they're still a thing of beauty. I also used them in Aksis phase 1 when that first came out to kill the major sword vandals. Worked really well. [quote] I just don't see how a shotgun is going to be more useful than a sniper, rocket launcher, LMG, grenade launcher, or even a FR in PVE. It has certain limitations (range) that those other guns don't have. While you might be able to carry more ammo for it, I'm not sure that is going to trump having general utility with an LMG, burst damage/crowd control with a RL, or long range DPS with a Sniper. I just don't see it happening.[/quote] A lot of it is sort of a wait and see to be honest. The real thing they'll be competing against though is swords. Swords are super strong, very close range, and pretty ammo efficient. But if you can two shot a soreness shielded major and one shot an unshielded major, that kind of power I see being very useful. Fusion Rifles, from brief clips I've seen aren't that strong. Snipers depend on a good crit spot and enough range to be accurate (too close and you lose your shot of the boss twitches). Rocket Launchers and Grenade Launchers can kill you if you're too close, but obviously are WAY better at clearing large groups of adds. Still outside of burns and ghorn, I've never been that impressed with rocket launchers. There seems to be some question about whether LMGs are actually returning. So I CAN see a situation where a shotgun would be a great choice. Whether it'll get enough buffs to make it as good as a sword, since realistically almost any situation now where a shotgun is good, a sword is better remains to be seen. TBH, I'm hoping we see a good chunk of buffs to range/handling/everything else that was nerfed for special weapons now that they won't be terrorizing the crucible. Side note: thank you for a reasonable conversation. I frankly was pretty combative with you in this thread, but instead of starting a flame war you really responded reasonably and just a lot better than I probably deserved. Thanks for that.

[quote]They won't get used. Shotguns will never have enough range to be viable so long as there is a unified sandbox. Shotguns are always a risk/reward gun because you have to get close. But due to range constrictions, the risk is always much higher than reward. Shotguns haven't been viable in PVE since HoW, when long range + shot package made them solid DPs machines while allowing you to stay out of the OHK AOE attack range.[/quote] Who the hell is going to waste their heavy ammo in PvE just to use a shotgun? Before Bungie's lovely sandbox decided to nerf range, ammo, regen, reload time etc etc on shotguns, invective was a blast to use in strickes. I can't remember the name of Ttk strick with the 2 brothers but it was ( fun ) useing on the one with the shield. I'd run up to him and unloading right up in his face lol. I shouldn't have to worry about running out of ammo when using a shotgun going, Oh shit! Now what, can you guys stop shooting me, I have to reload so give me a min while I go into my menu. Getting within inches of something that has light switch that is a slap to your face that is an instant kill. I shouldn't have to worry about the damage output because the sandbox listens to gamers crying about them being used too much. I shouldn't have to worry about the reload time being reduced because gamers cry. The list goes on and that's just only shotguns. [quote]I imagine most people will just take a sniper or launcher. Maybe a LMG. A good group working as a cohesive unit all the time will probably have one of each of those, with Swords in inventory as backup.[/quote] Most gamers that play this game [b]( always go to the next go-to )[/b]... and what does that mean to the sandbox? If it's popular it must be nerfed.

I'm sorry, but when I order a steak that's medium-RARE and they bring me back a steak that is medium-WELL, that's not listening to what we want. But this is effectively what they have done in D2. I hear that some devs allegedly said that they are separating PVE and PVP sandboxes (I need the proof before I'll believe it though), but even if that is true, we start out from a position where a choice was made for PVP reasons that negatively effects us in PVE. Taking less firepower with us into PVE makes us less flexible and adaptable to combat situations, and it puts even MORE emphasis on players playing in teams of 3 so that you can coordinate loadouts to maximize GROUP adaptability over individual adaptability. What's that going to do for solo players? Even beyond that, they limit themselves in the kinds of encounters they design by not allowing us to take in more firepower with us. BAD MOVE! If you limit yourself on the kinds of encounters you can design, all encounters start feeling the same, you get a sense of how the encounter should go with ALL bosses (this is how we dealt with the blighted chalice strike even when we never played it before - we knew what to expect from our experience with other strikes). It gets boring and tedious REALLY quickly. Variety is the spice of destiny and that goes for the kinds of boss encounters we face. Yet Bungie just made a move that limits their boss/encounter designs. Overall, not particularly excited about it.

No worries. I just want the proof man LOL Its hard to take anything seriously about this game unless it comes straight from the Donkey's mouth! Even if PVE and PVP are separated though, its going to be hard for me to get around the new weapon system. I don't like it one bit. Seems like a lot of lost DPS potential.