Well, I mean, when we try to use the Darkness we see what happens... we either go mad or kill each other or die. And even if we could use the darkness, that's subjective, because the Darkness is very likely to be allowing us to use it. Not being forced into it as we would like to believe. At least with the Light it actually helps us. Why try to keep something (the darkness) that just destroys us in the first place? The only place for 'balance' would be relentless destruction of the Darkness. Why? Because the Darkness instigates relentless destruction of the light. THAT is the only balance that can be achieved. Mutual destruction. Until one claims victor, which will never happen.

Yet we also use weapons like Thorn, Necrochasm, Bad Juju....even Dreadfang which were embued with the power of the Darkness. Dreadfang was even "Taken". What you're expressing is a very "dualistic" (and very Western...read Judeo-Christian-Islamic) view of the nature of Good and Evil. (Which is why the first thing I asked was "Define 'evil'?") Where Good and Evil are seen as these separate and opposite entities....and if your view of them is like that, then sure. It would be very difficult to wield the Darkness without being corrupted by it. But Eastern and contemplative traditions take a different view of the nature of Good and Evil. In the Buddhist and Hindu comtemplative traditions, Good and Evil aren't completely separate....and tend to be very situation-specific. Usually defined by what is your motivation...and what were the consequences of your actions. In fact Buddhism doesn't even USE the terms "good and evil". They speak more in terms of "virtues" (precepts) and "vices" ("kleshas" or "spiritual poisons")....and "skillful" and "unskillful" actions. Actions motivated by the precepts...and free of the kleshas tend to generate outcomes that reduce the suffering of others, and are either mutually or selflessly beneficial. They generate "good karma"...and are thus "skillful". Actions motivated by the kleshas or spiritual ignorance and identification with form tend to add to the suffering of self and others, and are destructive to self and others. They generate negative karma...and are thus "unskillful". So instead of being entirely good or entirely evil...which can generate negative karma (religious fundamentalism). They tend to seek a more balanced position and understanding. Accepting that "Darkness" is a part of our nature as beings....and can be utilized in non destructive ways as long as one's motivations are compassionate, our actions skillful, and our understanding of the true nature of Reality is clear. IOW, think of it this way. ANGER is of the Darkness. Fear is of the Darkness. But Anger is neither "good" nor "evil". But it can be the motivating factor of good or evil acts. Anger at a the personal insult and rejection of a lover being unfaithful has motivated many people to acts of intimidation, stalking, obsession and murder. But anger at the injustices being done to others, or the unfairness of a situation can motivate people do things that bring great benefit to others while doing no harm. RAGE is destructive. OUTRAGE...can be constructive. What seperates the two is that one is Dark Energy being used unskillfully to benefit self. Whereas the other is Dark Energy being used skillfully and compassionately to benefit others. At the end of the day, Light and Dark are simply ENERGY....and what defines them as "good" or "evil" is ultimately about what you DO with that energy. The issue with the Darkness, is the energy is AGGRESSIVE...and because it IS aggressive...it has to be wielded with MUCH greater caution because there is a greater capacity to do harm with it. As well as much greater capacity to FOOL ourselves as to what our REAL motivations are. But the energy itself isn't inherently good or evil. I think this is the understanding that Osiris...and possibly even Toland The Shattered....was working towards. Which ran him afoul of the Speaker and his more dualistic views....thus resulting in Osiris being banished from the City.

But I'm not talking in sides of 'good' and 'evil'. I'm talking sides of Light and Dark. Aspects of the Light heighten humanity, aspects of dark corrupt and erode humanity. That has been made abundantly clear. The Darkness is a literal poison to use. We cannot survive by Darkness. So why wade in a pool that's half water and half poison? You bring up weapons we use. Would Thorn not been equally as effective as the enlightened Rose? Look at Thorn, a hero drowned in darkness, a legendary stature soiled in guilty and now shuddered legacy. What was the gain from the Darkness? Nothing more than Rose already gave. Thorn only added pain, savagery, slaughter, and poison. Nothing of any use that we could have never needed to acquire. It did nothing for us. The others, Necrochasm and Dreadfang. Again, are we really in control of this Darkness? I would ask you that. Necrochasm enjoys feasting on Hive. Dreadfang binds itself to whatever wielder it has. It willing gives itself for its own end, not ours. What happens when a more prospectus wielder of death comes along? They are more than weapons, and they have their own wills that we cannot control whether we want to or not. Bad Juju, the corruptions of a mad warlock. One who made a weapon that wills the death of all. Is that a weapon of humanity? Or a weapon of another chaotic will? There is not aspect that we need of it. What happens when another man replicates the dealings of Red Death, but with a weapon that LOVES slaughter? The Darkness is chaos, the Light is order. Neither have strict emotional boundaries, and neither are always right. However, humanity does not thrive under chaos or cataclysm or convolution. Humanity, while an essence of chaos, needs order and structure and construct society to survive. To become higher than that of the last generation. We cannot become better under chaos, even if that is where all reality goes to. Evil, if used for the right purposes, can be made into a tool. Good, if used for the wrong purposes, can lead to the deaths of millions. The problems between Light and Dark are not bound by simple philosophies that are bound by 'right' and 'wrong' or 'good' and 'evil'. This... this is a Dark Souls balance. If you know the game. The Light (or fire) is where life thrives. The Darkness (or dark) is where demons and death and havoc reaps. Even though humans are born with darkness within them (or in Destiny, humanity is naturally chaotic), they only thrive by Light (or order and structure). We are not attuned to nature, we are not designed for chaos, we are not fit to survive the darkness. That is why we cannot use the Darkness. It's more than light or dark, it's more than good or evil. The dark desires our very deaths at its heart. The Light desires our prosperity. Whether for our goals or for unknown motivations... these ARE the natures of the Darkness and the Light. The Darkness will ALWAYS destroy humanity, and the Light ALWAYS will try to bring about life through renewal. This isn't about sides, this is about survival. And we cannot, will not, and could not survive a Dark universe. If heros can succumb such tiny, insignificant forces of the dark... how can one possibly expect to LIVE in a darkness coated universe where no light can be found. We cannot let a poison slip into our veins. A cup of water, with a drop of poison, can kill the strongest of men. This is true with the Light and Dark.

You're still taking a dualistic, "either-or" posture, which is very difficult NOT to do when you're someone who's been raised in Western society. You are also speaking of the Light and the Dark as ENTITIES....not forcies....within the game. The Hive, and the Wyrm Gods are clearly evil. They use the power of the Darkness to destroy. The Traveller is---to a degree-----beneficient. But that doesn't mean that the power of the Dark can't be used to help....or the power of the Light to destroy (especially since We Guardians do that every day). The issue isn't so much the nature of the Energy...but the INTENTIONS used when wielding it. ...and the Hive clearly plan on surviving. They just intend to be the last species standing, and to survive at the expense of everything else. (An evil intent).

You're missing the point... The light and dark ARE entities... that's the thing. They are not simple 'forces' telling this or that what to do. They are not purely emotion or logic or acts or thoughts. That's the thing. You can't talk JUST in terms of actions and emotions, they are cold, solid, REAL things pulling at our hearts and minds, along side whispers of what you can and can't do. NOT just ideas and inner desires. Real, literal entities. You are speaking purely terms of the metaphorical aura-like forces and looking through subjective lenses. I am talking about LITERAL things the Light and Dark do. And while that has a lot of merit, you have to go beyond that. They are tied together. You are being mutually exclusive. You are taking literal away from intangible and subjective. You say that intent drives the forces of Light and Dark. It's more than that... Yes, the Darkness uses anger and rage and evolutionary philosophies to push its agenda. That is how you survive the Darkness, by becoming it, and embodying those traits. At the same time, the Light uses anger and rage and a system of life over death, us killing the Hive, as another way to prosper and grow. But, it has been made clear that by using the dark REGARDLESS of the intentions, it corrupts, it sways, it GOES AGAINST our intentions. It manipulates us. Unlike the Light so far. The Light has always been a tool as far as we know. The Light is a weapon and a source of life that allows us to survive, and in turn, the Light survives. The Dark CANNOT be used for OUR intent. It's the other way around. If we use the dark, it's because the dark ALLOWED ITSELF to be used for ITS OWN MEANS. The Darkness favors the strong, but NOT survival. Dregden Yor was strong, Toland was strong, Osiris was strong, but are they really following their own path? Are they fulfilling their will, or the will of an manipulator. Are they really doing what they set out, as men, to do. Or was their path corrupted? Even the Hive are not following their own will. The deal they made with the worm gods was this: Give up your will, become strong, and live. In turn, you will fight, and ravage, and exterminate, until nothing is left. Did Ryzll (Dregden Yor) INTEND to go mad or dark from the hero he once was? Was making the Thorn HIS desired end? Or was that THE DARK performing its will, and not Yor. You have to answer that. Was Toland always bent on ending everything around him? Was he enlightened? Or driven insane? Did he want his weapons to feel the need to kill? Or was that a byproduct of something he could not control? The Hive use the Darkness... but the Darkness control the Hive. Let's not confuse that for even a second. The Hive are anything but 'in control' of the darkness. They use it, but do not make it or have come close mastering it. The darkness is more than magic or blight or worms, it's so much more. It's the same with the Vex, they worship it 'use it', but they don't even understand it. They can't possibly know 'why' they can use the darkness, just that they can. NO ONE has ever used the Darkness in a sense that they 'controlled' or 'understood' it. That has never, ever happened. Toland learns from the Hive, which they admit, they DO NOT understand. They barter with a servant of the Darkness, NOT make their own darkness. Oryx's power WAS NOT his own. He had to make a deal. He had to be subservient. He had to stake his soul TO A THING. Not a philosophy or a ideology. Philosophies and ideologies, like you are saying, are ONLY as strong as those who follow it. The darkness... it doesn't need followers, it doesn't need people to sustain it. It simply IS. It is not 'a force' that hands on the edges on our mind. It is also a wearer of skins, a dark hand, a physical presence. To say that intent alone can then control the Darkness is a failing claim of immense consequence. All those who decent into madness... once thought that it was simply energy, directed by a wielder. They ALL went insane... it is much more than mere energy. This energy has a nature, has a will. And to say otherwise is to ignore how it works.

With all due respect, NONE of that has been made clear. Does the Darkness have a Nature? Yes. Can that Nature corrupt? Yes. Does it unavoidable and universally corrupt? No. Because you have as many examples within the Destiny lore of people who are touched by the Darkness, but that Darkness does not supplant their own will and force them to do evil. This could go on forever, but I'll cut right to the chase. Essentially what you and I are doing is acting out what I believe to have been the fundamental conflict between the Speaker and Osiris. Between Jedi orthodoxy and what came to be known as the Potentium Heresy (in Star Wars Legends/Extended Universe). Between "dualist" religions and "non-dual" ones. Between those who see the world in terms of "Either-or"....and those who see the world in terms of "both-and". Jedi Orthodoxy see the Dark Side of the Force as you describe the The Darkness, as this Senient force that supplants the will of the person wielding it....leading to their inevitable corruption...and any acts committed through are tained and ultimately evil. Part of Jedi lore is that "At first the Sith controls The Dark Side, then the Dark Side comes to control The Sith." The problem with this is that while you have stories of many jedi who were corrupted and fall to the Dark Side....you also have many stories of Dark Siders who are redeemed back to the Light. The Potentium Heresy did not see the Force as divided. The Force simply IS....and has many aspects. What is Light or Dark is the intentions of the Force User. That----not the Force----determines what consequences the use of the Force in that situation will generate. There is a lot of things being dropped about Episode VIII that suggest that Luke may be moving The Order away from the orthodoxy of the past to the more "balanced" view of the Force that followers of The Potentium view of the Force held. But the Jedi Order at the time of Revenge of the Sith were nearly destroyed by their limited understanding of the Force. They were destroyed by a Sith Order that had adapted, changed, and grown stronger over the course of millennia by adhering to the Rule of Two...while the Jedi remained fixed in place. They were destroyed by one of their own, whom they had utterly failed in teaching how to handle his own inner darkness. The rage that was the result of growing up a slave, and seeing his mother murdered. The passion of loving a woman....and the fear of losing her and his children. All the Jedi could offer him was to suppress and deny those dark emotions....leaving him vulnerable to being manipulated by them and falling into the arms of the Sith. The problem with your views is that we HAVE examples of the Darkness being harnessed and the users NOT being driven mad and driven to evil acts. THE AWOKEN ARE HUMANS WHO HAVE BEEN TOUCHED BY BOTH THE LIGHT AND THE DARKNESS. THE POWER THAT THE QUEEN DEMONSTRATES IN BATTLING ORYX AT THE START OF "THE TAKEN KING." IS FUELED BY THE DARKNESS. When Oryx shows up in our Solar system, he doesn't show up looking to wage war on The Awoken. He shows up DEMANDING THEIR ALLEGIANCE, AND insisting that (as creatures of The Darkness) He is their King. After which The Queen tells Oryx to go -blam!- HIMSELF, and that she will NOT SUBMIT. That is when the shooting starts....and when Oryx decides that the isn't going to destroy the leaders that oppose him but instead "Take them ALL", and FORCE them to submit. You have Eris Morn....whose connection to the Light has been broken....and draws what powers she has from the Darkness. You have Osiris and Toland the Shattered as well. DESTINY'S EQUIVALENT OF THE "GREY JEDI" OF THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE. When you look at the Grey Jedi----jedi that stepped away from Jedi Orthodoxy-----some fell to Darkness and evil: Count Dukoo. Vergere. Jacen Solo. Quinlon Vos. But you also have those who never did. Qui-gon Jinn. Ahsoka Tano....and ultimately Luke Skywalker. In terms of Jedi Orthodoxy of the Clone Wars era, Luke Skywalker is a Grey Jedi. He realized that the utter rejection of human connection and "dark emotions" was a deviation from the Will of The Force...and unsustainable. So instead of rejecting and suppressing anger, fear, jealousy.....he taugh the New Jedi Order to acknowledge its existence. To HARNESS it when possible....and to MASTER it when that was not possible. One of the defining moments of the Legends/Expanded Universe is when Luke's wife----Mara Jade Skywalker----is murdered...and he comes to realize that his nephew Jacen Solo (the new Sith Lord Darth Caedus) is responsible. Although Luke is the most powerful jedi in the galaxy, he recognizes that he cannot confront Jacen. He knows that he will simply slay him in anger....and fall to darkness. himself. Instead he tasks Jacen's sister, Jaina to track him down and eliminate him. But once again....in opposition to the notion that the Darkness is irredeemably evil....before Jacen is slain by the hand of his own sister....he acts to prevent his daughter from being killed by a bioweapon attack. Thus leaving himself more vulnerable to his sister's attacks, and arguably leading to his own death. IN the EU----before Disney bought the franchise and it was made to be no longer cannon-----Luke had come to realize that the Dark Side could never be destroyed....and that the BALANCE between Light and Dark was the Will of the Force, and was transitioning the Jedi Order to be an organization that wasn't dedicated to destroying the Sith and users of the Dark Side....but to the preservation of the BALANCE between Light and Dark. In short. This is a argument that has been raging for 2500 years of human history....and won't be solved here. Where you stand on all ofthis is a product of your individual world view. Is Evil something that dominates and corrupts from without....or is Evil the expression of that which is corrupt from within?

Yet the distinction remains the same in Destiny. It comes down to this. The Light DOES NOT change the will of a user. It can only reinforce it, empower it, sustain it. The Dark DOES change the will of a user. It corrupts, it twists, and it allows itself to be used for it's own means. THAT is the difference. The only difference I care to elaborate on. Whether either or is used for good or evil is irrelevant. [quote]Essentially what you and I are doing is acting out what I believe to have been the fundamental conflict between the Speaker and Osiris. Between Jedi orthodoxy and what came to be known as the Potentium Heresy (in Star Wars Legends/Extended Universe). Between "dualist" religions and "non-dual" ones. Between those who see the world in terms of "Either-or"....and those who see the world in terms of "both-and". Jedi Orthodoxy see the Dark Side of the Force as you describe the The Darkness, as this Senient force that supplants the will of the person wielding it....leading to their inevitable corruption...and any acts committed through are tained and ultimately evil. Part of Jedi lore is that "At first the Sith controls The Dark Side, then the Dark Side comes to control The Sith." The problem with this is that while you have stories of many jedi who were corrupted and fall to the Dark Side....you also have many stories of Dark Siders who are redeemed back to the Light. The Potentium Heresy did not see the Force as divided. The Force simply IS....and has many aspects. What is Light or Dark is the intentions of the Force User. That----not the Force----determines what consequences the use of the Force in that situation will generate. There is a lot of things being dropped about Episode VIII that suggest that Luke may be moving The Order away from the orthodoxy of the past to the more "balanced" view of the Force that followers of The Potentium view of the Force held.[/quote] If the "Light and Dark" were one big force with different perspectives and ways of use, I would agree with you. But that's just not the case as of right now. Are there many sides? Probably. But there are distinct and nearly visible rifts between Light and Dark. They aren't the same thing, even if they both have the same power. The problem is, and remains, is that BOTH SIDES have LITERAL entities. The Traveler, The Black Heart, The Deep. This is more than 'a giant tidal pool of power' at play. There are literal sides. That is something Star Wars doesn't have. -- The difference between 'the force' and Light/Dark is simple. The force moves through all things, and each 'side' has a different way of using it. 'Grey Jedi' walk a fine line between either both or neither disciplines. The Light, so far, is a tool. It has only, and ever, been as a tool. You COULD compare [u]'Light'[/u] to the 'force' because it can be used for good or evil. Look at the Iron Lords, then look at the heros like Saint-14 or Rezyl. It is a tool to be used, perhaps even have a will of it's own, but it does not physically enter the world as it's own side that will actively alter other people. That much, I'll agree with. What you just described is every order of Warlocks ever concerning JUST the Light. The 'force' is the Light. The sith and Jedi are how you use Light. It's two different philosophies over the same thing. But the Dark is a different "Light". It's a force that actively tells the user 'this is better' or 'this is how it's meant to be'. It twists and shapes and bends and warps. No, it's not instantaneous. No, it does not make you evil. But, again, these aren't the point. The point is, no matter how big or small, the end goal always changes somehow, someway. It doesn't matter if it's 'good or bad' it's the fact the literally, the dark, changed the course of the user. Either in the person itself, or what they do, or what they strive to achieve after they finish. But it always, always, always leaves a mark. The Light doesn't do that... it does not encapsulate the user. It is a reinforcer, not a director. A person who strives to use the dark will be, in some way, used BY the dark itself. That is the difference.

No it doesn't. That is YOUR Dualism----and that of The Speaker----manifesting itself. I have already cited multiple examples of people who have been touched by the Darkness...and wield the Darkness...but not have been driven to commit evil acts because of it. But----because of your dualistic viewpoint----you keep stubbornly trying to ignore and dismiss those examples. YOUR POINT IS NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND. I SIMPLY DON'T AGREE WITH IT, AND A COMPREHENSIVE LOOK AT DESTINY'S LORE SHOWS THAT THIS IS NOT WHAT WE'RE DEALING IWTH. You are simply arguing that the Darkness is like The Ring of Power from Lord of The Rings. A force of supernatural evil so powerful that it overcomes the will of its wielder and therefore corruptrs everything that person does. There are TWO problems with that. 1. Tolkien was a devout Catholic...and his Catholicism (and the dualism of Christianity) infuses his work. The Ring of Power is a by-product Chrisitan Orthodoxy and its views on the nature of Good and Evil. 2. The Ring of Power ONLY Corrupted if the will of the wearer was WEAKER than that of its creator Sauron. Everyone in MIddle-earth----except one being----was terrified of it because they WERE weaker than its Creator. Sauron was the most powerful and cunning of all the Maiar-class of the Ainur (angels, basically). But if you read The Fellowship of the Ring, one being in Middle-Earth puts on the Ring of Power and was unaffected by it. Tom Bombadil. Sam Gamgee was only minimally affected by it, and was abile to give it up willingly for much the same reason as why Bombadil was unaffected by it. NEITHER ONE OF THEM HAD ANY AMBITION TO CHANGE THINGS OR TO CONTROL OTHER BEINGS. SO THEIR WAS NOTHING (IN BOMBADIL'S CASE) AND ***ALMOST*** NOTHING IN SAM'S CASE FOR THE RING TO WORK UPON. So the Ring was little more than a play thing to Bombadil...and Sam's "common sense" (that the world would not be improved by covering all of it with his gardens) were enough to resist its corruption. Bottomline is that the Darkness is an AGGRESSIVE force that promotes CHANGE of a destructive nature. Like FIRE. While that Darkness clearly has the power to corrupt some individuals like Dredgen Yor, it has clearly not corrupted the Queen of The Awoken Her Darkness-fuelled power, and ability to fight her way up the pecking order among the Fallen, as well as cripple Oryx' fleet has saved the City and Humanity TWO times over. Without her the House of Wolves would have shown up to add their forces to the Battle of Twilight Gap...and the City would have fallen. Without her fleet,---and its sacrifice----The City would have been helpless in the face of Oryx. If "That be Corruption, than I say make the most of it."

[quote]That is YOUR Dualism----and that of The Speaker----manifesting itself. I have already cited multiple examples of people who have been touched by the Darkness...and wield the Darkness...but not have been driven to commit evil acts because of it. [/quote] Again... [quote]but not have been driven to commit evil acts because of it.[/quote] And again... [quote]but not have been driven to commit evil acts because of it.[/quote] I AM NOT SAYING THEY ARE COMMITTING SOLELY EVIL ACTS OR HAVE EVIL INTENTS. My, basic point, is that the INTENT changes for GOOD OR EVIL, it simply CHANGES because of the Darkness. The wielder IS NOT in control. Unlike the Light, we don't have full control. Enough with this good and evil spouting. I'm not talking about that and haven't been the whole time. I UNDERSTAND they don't all COMMIT EVIL ACTS. THE WHOLE POINT IS THIS: The Darkness wields you. No matter how small or large or good or bad or whatever next thing you're going to say, the darkness does something to change or alter or command. Eris Morn was manifested by the Darkness and it CHANGED her being. It was FORCED upon her and she did the best she could with it.Do you honestly think we can hold the Dark after all she went through? You think she would want others to have the chance to suffer like she did? The various guns were CHANGED to have a will of their own. The are used by guardians, but whose will are they following. The guardians, or theirs? The Hive were CHANGED to follow a different will. They are now an evolutionary devout genocidal race. Their view of love, evil, hate, war, is completely different. Are they evil? Or are they a millennia long slave to the essence that loves carnage? Oryx's ability, in essence, was to CHANGE the captives he took. The Darkness DROVE TOLAND mad. It changed his mind. First he wanted to know about the Hive and then he became instantly infatuated with death. The Darkness affected Osiris, going from basic concern for the Vex to madness and sacrifice. It CHANGED who he was even if it didn't change his goals. The Darkness CORRUPTED Dredgen Yor. He was one man, then became another. Simple as that. The Darkness is a catalyst for change. The Light is a tool of war. The Light has never, so far, been used to change an item or person while they were manifested or existed. NONE of these are necessarily evil, if even evil at all. And NONE of them are instantaneous. THAT'S NOT THE POINT. The point is, the darkness takes a point in making sure it has some form of way of affecting something. Who's to say how the next person will be affected? I'm not saying they turn evil. I'm saying, they are changed in one way or form or thought. It is not purely a tool, unlike the Light so far. The Light does not do that. Why? If they are the same thing, why are they so different? How can the Traveler and the Garden's Heart (the thing trying to eat the Traveler basically) be the exact same thing? The reason it's so dangerous is because it'll never be 'purely the user'. The Dark knows it's being used, it can easily change if it wants, and it has always made impact whether it be intentional or no. To swing with a sword of Light will make the cut sharper, to swing with a sword of dark might make the cut sharper, or hit a different target, or lose your balance, or you stab yourself, or bounce off the target, or an innumerable number of things. -- You're also going off the assumption that the Darkness affects (or doesn't affect) everyone the same. So since the Queen can do it, anyone can do it. I simply don't believe that to be true. Again, if we want to use the 'force' comparison, it would be silly to say the force affects everyone the same. The dark most likely has a similar nature to different races. To US that nature has been altering the wills or nature or being of others for whatever means it can.

Stop reapeating your argument. I UNDERSTAND IT. The point is you keep contradicting yourself, and you keep CHERRY-PICKING the lore. You keep emphasizing the people and incidents that support your viewpoint while ignoring or dismissing the ones who don't. I'm not arguing that the Light and the Dark aren't different. They are. But there is NO evidence in the Destiny cannon....that the Darkness has the ability to irrestably corrupt the will of the person or being that use it. Auarash and her sisters "fell" LONG before they ever accepted the Wyrm Gods' bargain. All the Darkness and the Wyrm Gods did was give them the power to do what they already wished to do.....destroy. While Eris Morn was wiling to risk her life (when she didn't have to) in the effort to destroy Crota so that others might be safe. Eris Morn is still waging war on those who are actually most closely alighned with what would be any sort of the "Will of the Darkness". You are NOT seeing what is there in the Lore. You are FILTERING it, so that you only see that which coincides with what you wish to believe. The Light is not just a "tool". The Light has its own nature....and like the Darkness....how it is used reflects the will of the person wielding it. So while some of those initially touched by the Travellers Light opted to use it to help others. Others chose to use it for their own ambitions. It took the Iron Lords to SUPPRESS the Warlords, and eventually create The VAnguard. You want to believe that the Darkness corrupts from without. I'm saying that there is ample evidence that it doesn't corrupt all who come into contact with it....and those who are corrupted by it were just as likely to have only had the corruption that already existed within them MAGNIFIED by the Darkness. Not instilled. Don't KID yourself. BOTH the Light and The DARK are forces of Change. The only difference is the nature, methods and apparent goals of that change. The Light didn't ASK us if we suddenly wanted to start living triple our normal life span. It didn't ASK us if we wanted Mars, Venus and Mercury terra-formed in opposition to the laws of physics. It didn't ask us if we wanted to see our understanding of the Universe and our technology leapfrog ahead. It didn't ask us if we wanted the power to colonize our system...and perhaps (eventually) the wider stars. The Traveller just showed up and DID it. We just didn't complain because those things coincide with human wishes. The Traveller didn't ask the dead if they wanted to be resurrected (and possibly forcibly removed from the Afterlife) to fight in war. While the SPEAKER gives us a choice whether to fight...the Traveller didn't give us a choise as to whether or not to BE here. In fact one of inscriptions on a gear piece whose name I can't recall simply states: [i]"Heaven can wait. There's still too much work to do here in Hell. " [/i] A HELL that the Traveller didn't give us any choice to be manifested in. The Traveller is most certainly more GENTLE (The Leviathan) in its methods than The Darkness. But do not confuse GENTLENESS with BENEFICIENCE. Gentleness is a means. Beneificence is a motivation.

[quote]Don't KID yourself. BOTH the Light and The DARK are forces of Change. The only difference is the nature, methods and apparent goals of that change. [/quote] Yes, and this is the embodiment. But both forces of change have their own figureheads. That is my point with the entities. If they were both simply left as philosophies 'over forces' I could see that, but there are literal differences between the heads of these forces. And that's what makes them different. That is why there are sides. Many sides, but sides in themselves. The Light behaves differently than the Dark. And how it can be used is also different. If they were the same thing, it would rely purely on the individual on what outcome became 'dark' or 'light'. But dark is dark and light is light most of the time. A dark spell will always be 'dark' regardless of the use, same with the light. If it was the same force, the distinction between one spell being light and another dark would be the wielder. But the wielder doesn't get to determine it. The force doesn't have this. The One Ring, doesn't have this. There are temptations and courses of actions and 'bad guys verses good guys' but there are no literal entities that represent the forces of change. In 'the force' there is only [u]one[/u] force, but no physical leader. In LOTR, there are [u]weapons or items[/u] of change but still all just philosophy. Sauron (pardon my spelling) is a physical leader of change, but not the embodiment of that literal (but metaphorical) change itself, merely an instigator. The forces of change do not have literal faces. Destiny, seemingly, does that. The dark and Light are both a literal and metaphorical presences at the same time. One literal presence can't be the exact same 'other' literal presence. That's the issue. While they are ALL change, they are DIFFERENT forces. That's the distinction. [quote]But there is NO evidence in the Destiny cannon....that the Darkness has the ability to irrestably corrupt the will of the person or being that use it. Auarash and her sisters "fell" LONG before they ever accepted the Wyrm Gods' bargain. All the Darkness and the Wyrm Gods did was give them the power to do what they already wished to do.....destroy. [/quote] I never said it was irresistibly corrupting. Again, it's [u]not instantaneous[/u]. It's not inherently evil. But it's always there. It's always nagging at change. Be it a simple change to a full conversion, it still happens. But this applies to [u]uses[/u] of the dark. Not simply being around it. Although, with enough time, even that has it's toll from time to time. When we [u]use[/u] the Light, that doesn't happen. The Light, when [u]we use it, is a focused tool[/u] thus far. Yes, it has changed things that were always outside our control by the Traveler. But, the difference is, when we do have control there is no 'external force' still there. It simply is used. When you use a super again and again and again, there is no gradual effect that can be seen. The dark is often different. There is no danger, whatsoever, in using the Light. Yet, the Dark is not nearly as kind or manageable. Why? Light is so commonly associated with outward power or strength, but dark is nearly always associated with inner battles or emotions or thoughts. It's almost like the Light is the mainly outward projection of force, but Dark is set as being largely an inward force, hidden. [quote]I'm saying that there is ample evidence that it doesn't corrupt all who come into contact with it....and those who are corrupted by it were just as likely to have only had the corruption that already existed within them MAGNIFIED by the Darkness. Not instilled. [/quote] Everyone is always at risk to corruption, that's human nature. This goes back to the emotional aspects. Anger, malice, fear, rage. Both Light and Dark affect this. But neither are good or evil in its essence. But those who are around the Dark tend to go to that more primal form of thought or act. Again, not instantaneous. I've been clear about that. And also, with the Queen, it doesn't affect everyone the same. But it's undeniable that the Dark has a clear overall impact that is much greater than that of the Light. One that isn't simply instigated, but affected over time more and more. Why doesn't the Light do this? So why aren't there 'light artifacts' that also do this? Why is it only the dark that show [u]continued[/u] show of will even after the user takes procession? Why is there no creep effect of the Light? Why aren't there weapons or armor that can do that? Why is only the Dark given that ability? That, here, is another reason I think they're literally different. [quote]The Light is not just a "tool". The Light has its own nature....and like the Darkness....how it is used reflects the will of the person wielding it. So while some of those initially touched by the Travellers Light opted to use it to help others. [/quote] Yes, for that amount. But why isn't it [u]still[/u] there? Why is there not this hanging or lingering essence of Light around those who touch it? Shouldn't those who come in contact with it be affected, not only on a physical level (burning/annaliation/or healing) but on an emotional or logical level as well? We simply don't see that... as the Dark infects places of Light, why doesn't the Light infect places of dark? [quote]While Eris Morn was wiling to risk her life (when she didn't have to) in the effort to destroy Crota so that others might be safe. Eris Morn is still waging war on those who are actually most closely alighned with what would be any sort of the "Will of the Darkness". [/quote] And this is very clear. However, that same darkness she 'uses' now had threatened to destroy her again and again and again. It was not something originally meant to be used, but something she became, and then had to use it. Again, this doesn't change her goals or alignment, or her nature, but the dark doesn't lose any sense of the word 'dangerous' in her scenario. Eris is a rare survivor in a usually tragic end, to be that deep in the dark. But say someone was drenched in Light? Consider that. Why are the effects so very averse? Why does Light simply empower or enlighten when the Dark is often a near death threat in that amount. The Dark was not meant to be harnessed by humans. Perhaps by Awoken, but it simply isn't something that was meant to be used. Yes, you can use it. But the negative effects [u]are[/u] there. If you use the dark, eventually or swiftly in time, something will happen. Yes, people have used it without turning hell bent mad or affected, or even without signs of attachment. But the Light doesn't have sort of exposure effect. You simply have it, or attained it, and then you learn to use it. But where are the warnings to 'too much light' or being affected by light? There are few to none that I can recall. If they are both the same thing, shouldn't the intent be the only distinction? Both should be power, just used differently. But one actually reacts differently to our touch than the other. We stick too far in the dark and there [u]will[/u] be effects. We stay in the Light, and we thrive. But say the intent is exactly the same for both wielders... why is one so much harder to use and dangerous to withstand if they are, in reality, the same thing just used differently. And if they are the same, why aren't they interchangeable? They physically conflict, the two essences. That's why they're different. If they were 'just forces' it shouldn't conflict unless the user makes them conflict (usually in battle).

The other issue with dualists is their unceasing belief that their way of looking at things is the only correct way. That is why religious fundamentalists so often find themselves in conflict with others who don't agree with them. They are right. Only they are right...and everyone else is wrong. Definitionally. In short, I have to be wrong for you to be right. OTOH, you don't have to be wrong (from your point of view) for me to be right. Bottomline, continuing this conversation is pointless. You are simply blind to looking at this any other way.

Lol, when did I say my way was the only way? I mean... if you believe two completely different things, obviously one hinges on the other being wrong. Am I forcing you to see it my way? I'm simply showing why I see the way I do, as you are. The fact I've been talking to you this day proves that I'm not blind to looking at it your way. I'm simply sticking to mine, as you are yours. If I didn't care for your way, I would have ended this a long time ago. I was actually having fun, believe it or not. -- I could say the exact same to you. But I'm not, because I like the discussion.

The National Anthem of Dualism.

No , I'm not missing the point. We don't know enough about the Universe of Destiny (because Bungie won't tell us yet) to know WHAT the Darkness or the Light actually are. All we know is what a handful of Earth legends tell us. Legends of a society that is just starting to emerge from a dark age....and even the tellers of those legends can't tell you what is fact and what is myth. All we know about the Darkness is what has come from what is basically the Holy texts of The Hive....The Book of Sorrows. So while there may be some evidence to suggest that Oryx interacted with The Darkness (The Deep) directly, there is no ability to confirm whether he did or he did not. ...and as other posters have pointed out,, You have humans who are able to stand between the Darkness and the Light. Without being unavoidably being turned to evil. The Awoken were first touched by The Light of the Traveller...and then the Darkness of whatever it was that caused The Collapse. Eris Morn is a Guardian who was forged in Light....then stripped of her connection with the Light...and now ACTIVELY wields powers of The Darkness. Though she was initially a Hunter, she is more like a Hive Wizard now than a Hunter. Yet she actively fights against the Hive and the agenda of the Wyrm Gods....and her actions though Dark and Aggressive...have a self-sacrificing, almost Messianic tone to them. As though her suffering takes meaning as she uses it as a springboard to prevent the suffering of others. In short, the Thematic story that Destiny is attempting to tell is MUCH more complicated and MUCH more layered than the way you are looking at it. While YOUR way of looking at it is one legitimate way of looking at this forces at play in the Destiny Universe, MINE is an alternate and equally legitimate way. In short. The energy has a nature. You want to characterize it as irredeemably evil (dualistic), While I characterize it as aggressive...but whether or not it is "evil" being determined by HOW it is used and for what PURPOSE the user deploys it.

The Awoken imply that it is not as clear cut as that. They are born of Light and Dark. As they say [quote][i]"The others sing this song of Light and Dark. We, together, have transcended such unimaginative limitations."[/i][/quote] They imply that the distinction between the powers of Light and Dark is artificial. Ask yourself these question. Why are the worms and the Hive eating Light? What use could beings of Darkness have for the Light? Bungie themselves are implying that we are going to have to seek powers that aren't 'of the Light'. The reveal event packs carried the line "welcome to a world without Light" The whole premise of D2 appears to be that the Cabal has found a way to block or drain the Light of the Traveller.

Great read although there is little evidence Rasputin crippled the traveler, merely an if, then contingency

There was a contingency in place, it never 'took place'. So we never had to cripple the Traveler. The Traveler couldn't leave on its own regardless because it was so weak.