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4/24/2010 12:51:36 AM
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The Return of the Spiker: My Argument for its Revival. Updated 2!

[quote][b]Warning: Thread contains Inductive Reasoning[/b] Commenting after reading this thread without understanding the nuances of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning]Inductive Reasoning[/url] may result in mass ridicule. [b]Warning: Original Poster sucks at writing succinctly [/b] For those of you who lack the stamina required to read well thought-out essays: you have been warned, I will make no compromises for your lack of focus.[/quote] [quote][b]New Information![/b] Scroll down to the 7th post to read about a recent discovery that strongly points to the Spiker's return in Reach! It's more or less indirectly confirmed now! [b]New Information![/b] Scroll down to the 7th post to see a picture from E3 where a Spiker can be spotted in the hands of a Brute. [b]New Information![/b] Scroll down to the 7th post to see the first Video Footage of the Spiker being used by the Player![/quote] [quote][/quote][b]Introduction[/b][quote][/quote] Today I am here to discuss the past, the present, and the future of the [url=http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?cid=12237]Type-25 Carbine[/url]. Adept at filling the air with swarms of low-velocity superheated spikes, the "Spiker" is the primary weapon of choice for Brute Infantry. It is dual-wieldable, unique, awesome, and happens to be my favorite weapon in Halo. Ever since that summer day in my AP Physics class where my class mates and I huddled around a single computer to watch the first Halo Reach Trailer with wonder and excitement in our eyes, I've been searching for signs of the Spiker in Reach. At the time of this writing, the Spiker has not been confirmed to be in or out of Reach by Bungie, and its inclusion or removal has been a fairly frequent topic in the Halo Reach Forum. Although I have posted in many of these threads, sharing different evidence, insights, and reasoning, I've yet to hone and sharpen my thoughts and unite them together into one masterpiece. But now, after nearly a month of brainstorming, drafting, and revising, I bring you my evidence for why I believe it is likely that the Spiker will return in Halo Reach. I've worked hard to step away from my emotions and fairly evaluate the probability of the Spiker returning in Reach with cold hard facts and intelligence. I've crafted this thread with several groups of people in mind. First, for the intellectuals of the forum. Please, examine my argument, attack it with everything you have, and try to break it. You did a very good job of this with my [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=41989722]Spartan Laser Thread[/url]. Because you broke that argument completely, it helped me to understand why the Spartan Laser's return in Halo Reach wasn't as bad as I originally thought. Don't expect it to be so easy this time around however, my "hate" of the Spartan Laser is insignificant compared to my Love for the Spiker. Second, for the people who might have seen me on the forums, but just assumed that I am some sort of Spiker Fan Boy who believes that the Spiker will be in Reach because [i]"Bungie wouldn't dare mess with my favorite weapon."[/i] Please learn how horrifically wrong you are. I've put a lot of thought into this, and I won't have you writing me off until you hear the full story. There is a reason to why I say [i]"The Spiker is likely to return in Reach"[/i] with such confidence. Finally, to the people who blindly trust every word I say, I'd at least want to give you some background to why I came to this conclusion so that if you ever find yourself under attack for claiming that the Spiker will return in Reach, you will at least know how to go about defending yourself. [quote][/quote][i]"Why do you think the Spiker will be in Reach"[/i] you ask? This is a bit of a difficult question to answer, and I'm not sure exactly where I should start. As a writer, it's much easier for me to explain my theory to you by presenting the common arguments for why the Spiker won't be in Reach, then counter them one by one. I've compiled six major arguments today, and I am willing to add more should you people craft some new ones which challenge my conclusion. The original post is comprised of seven posts total, so I wish you luck with finishing it. [quote][/quote][quote][b]Argument 1)[/b] [i]Spikers are weapons used only by Brutes. I heard that there won't be any Brutes in Halo Reach, so it makes no sense for there to be Spikers in Halo Reach.[/i][/quote][quote][/quote] This argument commonly comes from people who haven't been following the development of this game closely. There is no crime in making an assumption like this when you don't have all the details available for you to digest, so allow me to quickly and kindly correct your misunderstanding. Brutes are in Reach. They have been indirectly confirmed twice by Bungie. The first time that they were confirmed was in the First Halo Reach Vidoc: [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/vidaudio.aspx?c=58&i=24782]Once More Unto The Breach[/url]. At about 4:33 into the video, you will clearly see an artist working on a new brute model for Halo Reach (the brute model is on the left screen, Brute concept art from Halo 3 is on the right screen). For those of you who are lazy and don't mind my funny red annotations, I have a [url=http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/Hylebosaiden/Bnet%20Image%20Resources/OMGBRUTES.jpg]screencap[/url] of this picture for your viewing pleasure. Why would they show footage in the vidoc of a character model that won't be in the final game? The second time that they were confirmed was in the [url=http://downloads.bungie.net/podcasts/Bungie_Podcast_30910.mp3]03/09/10 Bungie Podcast[/url]. The guest of this show was the Reach Audio Lead: Jay Weinland. At about 30 minutes into the podcast, the following exchange occurs: [quote] [b]29:58 Brian Jarrard:[/b] And then I guess you guys are also dealing with redefining a Grunt speaking a native dialog versus an Elite versus all of the Covenant. [b]Jay Weinland:[/b] Yup, it's a totally different take there I guess, totally different take, and we've come up with a way to actually write English words and then transmogrify them into an Alien Language which... [b]Brian Jarrard:[/b] Yeah, I heard that a real formal language was created, sort of melding together some other things that are out there and then you guys are like: "guess we'll apply some processing to the final recording to make..." [b]Jay Weinland:[/b] Yeah, apply some processing to make it sound more [b][u]Brutey[/b][/u], or more Elitey, or more Grunty. [b]Brian Jarrard:[/b] That's awesome. [b]Jay Weinland:[/b] So yeah, that's going to be good times, we've already recorded a couple of grunts, we're getting our Elites and [b][u]Brutes[/u][/b] here in Seattle. [/quote] Why would they need to record dialog for Brutes if they aren't going to be in the game? Now, some of you might not be entirely convinced. I've heard all sorts of justifications for why Brutes won't be in Reach despite the prior two bits of evidence. [i]"Brutes will be in cut scenes only and we won't ever fight them"[/i] or [i]"Bungie says that all details are subject to change, so they could easily come to their senses and removes Brutes from Reach before they ruin Campaign."[/i] To be blunt, these are feeble weak arguments which aren't likely to occur. I understand that some of you people may be nervous about reintroducing Brutes into Halo Reach when they didn't do so well in Halo 2 or Halo 3, but there are a variety of reasons why Brutes in Reach won't suck as much as in prior games. The important thing is that there are Brutes in the game, so we know that Spikers won't be taken out just because Brutes are absent. But Brutes have not been as consistent in their presentation throughout previous Halo games, which brings us to our next argument. [quote][/quote][b]Continued on Page 2[/b][quote][/quote] [Edited on 09.09.2010 5:46 PM PDT]
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#Halo #Reach

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  • Hylebos, do you think it would be a good idea to make a post for notable ideas? Just throwing out the idea.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SBTTLS I'm not sure if this was mentioned before, but.... On a page "declaring this info was data mined" says there is going to be a spiker.[/quote] Yeah, that's essentially leaked information, so I'm not putting it into the OP. The Reach Stat Image of the Spiker is good enough for me.

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  • I'm not sure if this was mentioned before, but.... On a page "declaring this info was data mined" says there is going to be a spiker.

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  • Ughhhh, reading all those words make brain bleed and hair hurt! Wow that was a lot of words, but your argument is very solid. I would like to see the spiker in the game so just so theres another weapon in the arsenal. I like to use any weapon I feel like and if dont have to use then well I dont use it. So I hope your right in the end.

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  • I'd love to see the spiker again. It dominated on High Ground (only when there were no maulers, shotguns, BRs, or enemies on the map) Joking aside, I would be more than happy to see a amped-up spiker for the brutes to cary around in Reach: don't try to deny it, they WILL be in Reach.

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  • If it returns, I hope it will be much different. Like, the spikes should be big and look deadly, like in the live action clips.

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  • Maybe they weren't in the Beta, but could be in the Retail.

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  • This makes me want to see the Spiker again in Reach. Very persuasive.

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  • Oops. [Edited on 05.14.2010 3:24 AM PDT]

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  • wow that really was very well thought out. When I read about the spiker in halo 3 i thought that it would stick in you and do minor damage until you ran out of health if your sheilds were down but it didnt do that and i only ever picked up the weapon if i was absolutely desperate. Also i think the melee system should work like it did in halo 2 in the final game 3 melees to kill unless your holding a weapon with a bayonet then its 2.

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  • I'd like to see the Spiker again...

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  • Well, reading that forum was just splended. I will admit that i never got into the spiker, but to me the presence would be missed. I thought I would stop reading after the first post, but wow its that good. Whats more suprising is that it's about the spiker.

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  • i say make the spiker melee if someone has shields always take away their shield and half their health (or something along those lines) so the melee still is stronger but not broken

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  • Spiker for Life! The ninja weapon for me. What if, since no more duel wielding, it had an increase melee damage?

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  • Op: As a fellow Spiker lover i congratulate you on a well thought out and intriguing post! It took me a little over 15 mins to read, and i didnt lose interest once! I sincerely hoope your overwhelming amount of evidence is not gravely misguided!

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  • I love long interesting posts, so I think it's safe to say that you just made my day, Hylebos. For those of you who are interested in Halo: Reach's Forge mode, click [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=44033981]here[/url].

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UNSC Sniper [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UNSC Sniper [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos That's a bit difficult to do with the new melee system.[/quote] How so? (I do not fully understand the new system)[/quote] In Halo 3, when you punched someone, you did about 70 points of damage. If you depleted the shields with that damage, the leftover damage went straight to the health. In Reach however, to make melee fights more predictable and less "random gut-based" where you internalized the ammount of time needed before you could hit and kill, they made it so that the shields absorb all damage before dieing for melees. So if you have one point of shields left, and I melee'd you, in Halo 3, I would do one damage to the shields, and 69 damage to the health, but in Reach, the entire attack would be absorbed by the shields. So it isn't a matter of giving the Spiker a power boost. It either kills in two hits, or it kills in one hit.[/quote] I see. One blow would only take the shields down, and no health. So a stronger melee would be redundant. Unless they made it so it bypassed this system, and went straight for health.[/quote] Yes. Bypassing shields is always an option, but that might make the gun too powerful. Assuming that the health / shield levels are roughly the same as in Halo 3, then Spartans have 70 shield hitpoints, and 45 health hitpoints, for a total of 115 hitpoints. Normal Melees do 70 damage, the Spiker Melee does 72 damage. So in Reach, the AR needs to do 70 points of damage before a melee can kill. If the Spiker melee could bypass the shields as they sputter and die, then you only need to do 43 points of damage to the shield before a Spiker melee kills your opponent in one hit. To me, that sounds pretty overpowered, and the likely mechanism to balance this would be to nerf the weapon fire, which turns the Spiker into more of a knife than a gun. I'd rather just live with not bypassing shields to do damage to be honest, not worth it.[/quote] Agreed. I'd just settle to see the spiker return in some shape or form. Its just such a unique weapon.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Eledhan [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos So in Reach, the AR needs to do 70 points of damage before a melee can kill. If the Spiker melee could bypass the shields as they sputter and die, then you only need to do 43 points of damage to the shield before a Spiker melee kills your opponent in one hit. To me, that sounds pretty overpowered, and the likely mechanism to balance this would be to nerf the weapon fire, which turns the Spiker into more of a knife than a gun. I'd rather just live with not bypassing shields to do damage to be honest, not worth it.[/quote] Then how is the Spiker its own niche? If it doesn't bypass shields, and there's no other special change from Halo 3, then the role the spiker plays is already filled by the Plasma Repeater and the Assault Rifle.[/quote]Check the OP. It's already confirmed. Try to be respectful of people with different viewpoints; that'll take you a long way.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos So in Reach, the AR needs to do 70 points of damage before a melee can kill. If the Spiker melee could bypass the shields as they sputter and die, then you only need to do 43 points of damage to the shield before a Spiker melee kills your opponent in one hit. To me, that sounds pretty overpowered, and the likely mechanism to balance this would be to nerf the weapon fire, which turns the Spiker into more of a knife than a gun. I'd rather just live with not bypassing shields to do damage to be honest, not worth it.[/quote] Then how is the Spiker its own niche? If it doesn't bypass shields, and there's no other special change from Halo 3, then the role the spiker plays is already filled by the Plasma Repeater and the Assault Rifle.

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  • K i didnt read a quarter of that but still agree it should return in some shape or form

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  • I think the spiker should return as a 3-burst rifle similiar as you had with the battle rifle. Make the rate of fire a bit slower then that of the BR and make the spikes go a little bit faster (they're to damn slow in halo 3). 9 spikes to the body to kill (3 bursts) or 6 if shot at the head (2 bursts).

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Fantomfox64 Hey, am I the only one that remembers the live action movie for Halo 3, where the marines track Master Chief's falling body? (can't remember the name of it) Remember how nasty the spiker seemed in that video? [/quote] That was the first 7 or 8 minutes of the Halo movie that (i think) got canceled. I do remember it though. I also think that the spiker of Reach should be vicious and cruel to its victims. For example, the red hot, sharp chunk of metal flying through the air and pinning a soldier's arm to the wall and him having to call another soldier out into the open to cut the spike so that he could escape from the "emotionless" brutes. :D This video had so much spiker rampaging goodness xD Link to the live action film - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKb0uWIn9i0 Wall scene at 4:05

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  • Hylebos, your love of the Spiker is boardering on obsession. You know that right?

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  • way to bumb bro, lol and i am with you 100%

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  • What an extreme Spiker fanboy xD even my first round through H3 campaign i grabbed two spikers off the brutes i had just slain and charged straight forward into the next pack. That just didn't work in H3 sandbox. I really hope they do remodel the spiker into a Brute-like AR. The wire frame pic you put in your conclusion reminds me of Civil War flint lock pistols xD (http://www.bungie.net/images/reachstats/weapons/spiker.png)

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  • Hey, am I the only one that remembers the live action movie for Halo 3, where the marines track Master Chief's falling body? (can't remember the name of it) Remember how nasty the spiker seemed in that video? I never used the spiker in Halo 3, as dual wielding wasn't my style. However, I totally agree with the arguement about it being in a very good position to be special in Reach. The Covenant, I've always felt, weren't as good in weapons, and I've always preferred human weapons over their Covenant counterparts. However, the spiker felt, to me, in Halo 3, a gun that could have been great but was left at the curb in developing other features of the game.

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