[quote][b]Warning: Thread contains Inductive Reasoning[/b]
Commenting after reading this thread without understanding the nuances of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning]Inductive Reasoning[/url] may result in mass ridicule.
[b]Warning: Original Poster sucks at writing succinctly [/b]
For those of you who lack the stamina required to read well thought-out essays: you have been warned, I will make no compromises for your lack of focus.[/quote]
[quote][b]New Information![/b] Scroll down to the 7th post to read about a recent discovery that strongly points to the Spiker's return in Reach! It's more or less indirectly confirmed now!
[b]New Information![/b] Scroll down to the 7th post to see a picture from E3 where a Spiker can be spotted in the hands of a Brute.
[b]New Information![/b] Scroll down to the 7th post to see the first Video Footage of the Spiker being used by the Player![/quote]
[quote][/quote][b]Introduction[/b][quote][/quote]
Today I am here to discuss the past, the present, and the future of the [url=http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?cid=12237]Type-25 Carbine[/url]. Adept at filling the air with swarms of low-velocity superheated spikes, the "Spiker" is the primary weapon of choice for Brute Infantry. It is dual-wieldable, unique, awesome, and happens to be my favorite weapon in Halo.
Ever since that summer day in my AP Physics class where my class mates and I huddled around a single computer to watch the first Halo Reach Trailer with wonder and excitement in our eyes, I've been searching for signs of the Spiker in Reach. At the time of this writing, the Spiker has not been confirmed to be in or out of Reach by Bungie, and its inclusion or removal has been a fairly frequent topic in the Halo Reach Forum.
Although I have posted in many of these threads, sharing different evidence, insights, and reasoning, I've yet to hone and sharpen my thoughts and unite them together into one masterpiece. But now, after nearly a month of brainstorming, drafting, and revising, I bring you my evidence for why I believe it is likely that the Spiker will return in Halo Reach.
I've worked hard to step away from my emotions and fairly evaluate the probability of the Spiker returning in Reach with cold hard facts and intelligence. I've crafted this thread with several groups of people in mind.
First, for the intellectuals of the forum. Please, examine my argument, attack it with everything you have, and try to break it. You did a very good job of this with my [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=41989722]Spartan Laser Thread[/url]. Because you broke that argument completely, it helped me to understand why the Spartan Laser's return in Halo Reach wasn't as bad as I originally thought. Don't expect it to be so easy this time around however, my "hate" of the Spartan Laser is insignificant compared to my Love for the Spiker.
Second, for the people who might have seen me on the forums, but just assumed that I am some sort of Spiker Fan Boy who believes that the Spiker will be in Reach because [i]"Bungie wouldn't dare mess with my favorite weapon."[/i] Please learn how horrifically wrong you are. I've put a lot of thought into this, and I won't have you writing me off until you hear the full story. There is a reason to why I say [i]"The Spiker is likely to return in Reach"[/i] with such confidence.
Finally, to the people who blindly trust every word I say, I'd at least want to give you some background to why I came to this conclusion so that if you ever find yourself under attack for claiming that the Spiker will return in Reach, you will at least know how to go about defending yourself.
[quote][/quote][i]"Why do you think the Spiker will be in Reach"[/i] you ask? This is a bit of a difficult question to answer, and I'm not sure exactly where I should start. As a writer, it's much easier for me to explain my theory to you by presenting the common arguments for why the Spiker won't be in Reach, then counter them one by one. I've compiled six major arguments today, and I am willing to add more should you people craft some new ones which challenge my conclusion.
The original post is comprised of seven posts total, so I wish you luck with finishing it.
[quote][/quote][quote][b]Argument 1)[/b] [i]Spikers are weapons used only by Brutes. I heard that there won't be any Brutes in Halo Reach, so it makes no sense for there to be Spikers in Halo Reach.[/i][/quote][quote][/quote]
This argument commonly comes from people who haven't been following the development of this game closely. There is no crime in making an assumption like this when you don't have all the details available for you to digest, so allow me to quickly and kindly correct your misunderstanding.
Brutes are in Reach. They have been indirectly confirmed twice by Bungie. The first time that they were confirmed was in the First Halo Reach Vidoc: [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/vidaudio.aspx?c=58&i=24782]Once More Unto The Breach[/url]. At about 4:33 into the video, you will clearly see an artist working on a new brute model for Halo Reach (the brute model is on the left screen, Brute concept art from Halo 3 is on the right screen). For those of you who are lazy and don't mind my funny red annotations, I have a [url=http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/Hylebosaiden/Bnet%20Image%20Resources/OMGBRUTES.jpg]screencap[/url] of this picture for your viewing pleasure.
Why would they show footage in the vidoc of a character model that won't be in the final game?
The second time that they were confirmed was in the [url=http://downloads.bungie.net/podcasts/Bungie_Podcast_30910.mp3]03/09/10 Bungie Podcast[/url]. The guest of this show was the Reach Audio Lead: Jay Weinland. At about 30 minutes into the podcast, the following exchange occurs:
[quote] [b]29:58 Brian Jarrard:[/b] And then I guess you guys are also dealing with redefining a Grunt speaking a native dialog versus an Elite versus all of the Covenant.
[b]Jay Weinland:[/b] Yup, it's a totally different take there I guess, totally different take, and we've come up with a way to actually write English words and then transmogrify them into an Alien Language which...
[b]Brian Jarrard:[/b] Yeah, I heard that a real formal language was created, sort of melding together some other things that are out there and then you guys are like: "guess we'll apply some processing to the final recording to make..."
[b]Jay Weinland:[/b] Yeah, apply some processing to make it sound more [b][u]Brutey[/b][/u], or more Elitey, or more Grunty.
[b]Brian Jarrard:[/b] That's awesome.
[b]Jay Weinland:[/b] So yeah, that's going to be good times, we've already recorded a couple of grunts, we're getting our Elites and [b][u]Brutes[/u][/b] here in Seattle.
[/quote]
Why would they need to record dialog for Brutes if they aren't going to be in the game?
Now, some of you might not be entirely convinced. I've heard all sorts of justifications for why Brutes won't be in Reach despite the prior two bits of evidence. [i]"Brutes will be in cut scenes only and we won't ever fight them"[/i] or [i]"Bungie says that all details are subject to change, so they could easily come to their senses and removes Brutes from Reach before they ruin Campaign."[/i] To be blunt, these are feeble weak arguments which aren't likely to occur. I understand that some of you people may be nervous about reintroducing Brutes into Halo Reach when they didn't do so well in Halo 2 or Halo 3, but there are a variety of reasons why Brutes in Reach won't suck as much as in prior games.
The important thing is that there are Brutes in the game, so we know that Spikers won't be taken out just because Brutes are absent. But Brutes have not been as consistent in their presentation throughout previous Halo games, which brings us to our next argument.
[quote][/quote][b]Continued on Page 2[/b][quote][/quote]
[Edited on 09.09.2010 5:46 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tesla 123 china called, they want their wall back[/quote] Its a wall of pure intelligence though I've got to say, only hylebos can make an 8 page post about the spiker, just like you made a 1 page rant asking about the spiker in urks rant thread. (That was hilarious) I agree with your thread 100% I actually read all the way through. Hylebos did you ever consider the idea of going into video game journalism? I think you would do quite well. Your posts are very well thought out, they make sense, are clear and well written out. I'm amazed by how much you can think to write. When I try to convince someone of something I run out of stuff to write. You should seriously consider a job in writing reviews or something of that sort.
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Personally, I think that the Spiker should deal very high damage because it's inaccuracy makes it very difficult to use outside of CQB, especially with the aim magnetism. Up close it should beat the AR, and it should be able to rival the DMR at a distance, provided the user can calculate the drop.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] InboundTMAN36 DUDE! to much man. youve crossed a line that no one would read it........ also modders beat you to it and found the spiker FAIL[/quote] He didn't fail. He won. Cue [i]Peril[/i] from H2 soundtrack.
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DUDE! to much man. youve crossed a line that no one would read it........ also modders beat you to it and found the spiker FAIL
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I used them yesterday on guardian. It was super awesome.
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Great thread Hylebos. I think you single handedly may see this gun in reach because of your efforts. :D
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Ugh. Wall of text. But Yes the spiker is in reach.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] stevo RaZoR [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elitemastersam 1. The SMG will not return 2. The Plasma Rifle will not return (in multiplayer) 3. The Spiker was in the same class of weapons as the two above. As those will not be returning, the Spiker most likely won't be returning as well.[/quote] the needler was switched back and forth, so was the magnum. why not the spiker [/quote] The dual needler was very OP, thats why they made it single. As for the spiker, we already know it's in, as for multiplayer, we can only pray...
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Elite Predator I can see a spiker rifle coming along... oh wait we have a needler rifle. Well how about an assault spiker... oh wait we have the plasma reapeater. It seems that all the possible upgrades for the spiker (if there is one) will be "duplicates" of other guns in Reach.[/quote] And yet, [url=http://www.bungie.net/images/reachstats/weapons/spiker.png]Spiker.[/url] Mysterious isn't it?[/quote]I know, I just want a new-looking, stronger spiker like the plasma reapeater. [Edited on 05.26.2010 6:58 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Elite Predator I can see a spiker rifle coming along... oh wait we have a needler rifle. Well how about an assault spiker... oh wait we have the plasma reapeater. It seems that all the possible upgrades for the spiker (if there is one) will be "duplicates" of other guns in Reach.[/quote] And yet, [url=http://www.bungie.net/images/reachstats/weapons/spiker.png]Spiker.[/url] Mysterious isn't it?
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I can see a spiker rifle coming along... oh wait we have a needler rifle. Well how about an assault spiker... oh wait we have the plasma reapeater. It seems that all the possible upgrades for the spiker (if there is one) will be "duplicates" of other guns in Reach.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] shadow31090 And correct me if I'm wrong... you call this your "favorite weapon" and yet you only have 161 (0.118) - Ranked, 875 (0.299)- Social kills with the spiker. Had it been your favorite weapon, I would have expected more from that. Just saying..[/quote] Unfortunately the majority of Spiker kills I get count as melee kills and get glomped together with all my other melee kills. Something I hope get's fixed for Reach, but given that melee was a tool of destruction in the beta... meh. Not to mention that although I like the Spiker, I realize that it's not the best weapon in the game, and I'm willing to abandon it to secure my team's victory. And it doesn't spawn frequently on many maps. And dual wielding is a bit of a pain... You get the idea.
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I hope it doesn't return and if it does, just in SP. I feel this way because the Spiker was never really worth using (except in the beta when it was stronger) and since dual weilding is out, it will seem useless to me. And correct me if I'm wrong... you call this your "favorite weapon" and yet you only have 161 (0.118) - Ranked, 875 (0.299)- Social kills with the spiker. Had it been your favorite weapon, I would have expected more from that. Just saying..
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] team dark little advice, if you actually want people to read what you have to say, tone it down ....wayyyy downnn. honestly who is gonna bother reading all that? no one, specially not bungie[/quote] I didn't write it for Bungie, and I didn't write it for the people who don't like reading long pieces, so it's all good. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dark Neptune [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos 1) Since the Spiker has been pretty much confirmed to be identical in design to the Halo 3 version, it kinda kills a ton of the "What could the Spiker end up looking like?" conversations. 2) I've already carefully read through all 530+ replies once and replied to many of them, and it took several days to just that. Surely you can understand if I am hesitent to go through that process again =\[/quote] I was wondering, Hylebos, if Bungie made it more awesome. My theory is that this is an earlier version, another earlier variant of the H3 Spiker. As such, I presume to give it a role in both Campaign and Multiplayer, it could be the gameplay hybrid of the H3 Spiker and Mauler. For that, it would be more interesting if it's called "Plasma Spiker" in Reach, where it shoots out the same spikes, but WITH [b][i]PLASMA[/b][/i]. And for the role, it would be the CQC version of the DMR. It would be a 5/6 shot kill, with a RoF of the DMR's. And it would have a mag of about 15 spikes. If that's its role in Reach, the Mauler doesn't need to exist, and then, there's a slightly better reason to use this weapon instead of a AR or PR in MP instead. :)[/quote] As I've stated before in the thread, I just have difficulty imagining a Spiker / Mauler combination, since one is rapid fire, the other is a shotgun. Given that it looks very much like the Halo 3 Spiker, I'm guessing they aren't doing too much with it aesthetically, so no spikes enveloped in plasma, no matter how cool it would be :) [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] D0nald Duck I remember seeing this thread almost a year ago :} [/quote] Which is odd, given that posted this only a month ago. Are you from the future? Is it full of Spikers?
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I remember seeing this thread almost a year ago :}
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What I'd like to see from the Spiker is three things. One, more pain brought to the fight when it comes to melee. In Halo 3 the Spiker's blades barely added any damage to a Spartan's melee, coupled with the fact that the attack animation was slow, meant that I, and many other player would use weapons which had a faster melee, should the battle get up close and personal, so I never went near it in campaign and only occasionally. ODST showed me that it could actually be a dangerous melee weapon because, as most know, meleeing Brutes in ODST was pointless. You might as well have been patting them. The Spiker (and Brute Shot) both added a bit of strength to the hit, so you could charge a Brute and know you weren't going to be pushed away with ease. Two, the damage needs to be increased. It simply took too long to kill a lot of enemies with the Spiker, especially in campaign. Now, I don't think it should be too powerful against energy shields, (maybe on par/weaker than human weapons, but it should burn through health like nothing. Often, when I did pick a Spiker, Brutes would end up looking like they were covered in thorns, which just looked stupid. Even Grunts had high resistance against them, and I would expect such a weapon to tear the Grunts/Jackals/Drones/Humans apart with ease. Finally, Brutes should use the blades on the weapon to massacre enemies that get too close. A good melee system for campaign would be that Elites to kill in three hits, Brutes to kill in two, and those wielding Spikers, one hit. The Elites were capable of a one hit beatdown in Halo 2 (which, as a side note, I found to be incredibly weird and stupid) so why can't Brutes, with their bayonets? If all these factors came to be, then I would certainly use the Spiker more in campaign and multiplayer, and learn to fear it at the range it was designed for.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos 1) Since the Spiker has been pretty much confirmed to be identical in design to the Halo 3 version, it kinda kills a ton of the "What could the Spiker end up looking like?" conversations. 2) I've already carefully read through all 530+ replies once and replied to many of them, and it took several days to just that. Surely you can understand if I am hesitent to go through that process again =\[/quote] I was wondering, Hylebos, if Bungie made it more awesome. My theory is that this is an earlier version, another earlier variant of the H3 Spiker. As such, I presume to give it a role in both Campaign and Multiplayer, it could be the gameplay hybrid of the H3 Spiker and Mauler. For that, it would be more interesting if it's called "Plasma Spiker" in Reach, where it shoots out the same spikes, but WITH [b][i]PLASMA[/b][/i]. And for the role, it would be the CQC version of the DMR. It would be a 5/6 shot kill, with a RoF of the DMR's. And it would have a mag of about 15 spikes. If that's its role in Reach, the Mauler doesn't need to exist, and then, there's a slightly better reason to use this weapon instead of a AR or PR in MP instead. :)
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Plasma3150 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] team dark a little advice, if you actually want people to read what you have to say, tone it down ....wayyyy downnn. honestly who is gonna bother reading all that? no one, specially not bungie.[/quote]I read it all...[/quote] well i don't have much time on my hands. so i can't sit here and read threw everything.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] team dark a little advice, if you actually want people to read what you have to say, tone it down ....wayyyy downnn. honestly who is gonna bother reading all that? no one, specially not bungie.[/quote]I read it all...
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little advice, if you actually want people to read what you have to say, tone it down ....wayyyy downnn. honestly who is gonna bother reading all that? no one, specially not bungie [Edited on 05.26.2010 6:17 PM PDT]
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That was an excellent read. I must also say that it was quite persuasive. I really wish to see the Spiker in Halo: Reach!
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elitemastersam 1. The SMG will not return 2. The Plasma Rifle will not return (in multiplayer) 3. The Spiker was in the same class of weapons as the two above. As those will not be returning, the Spiker most likely won't be returning as well.[/quote] the needler was switched back and forth, so was the magnum. why not the spiker
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although i did not read every word of your article, i believe its the most work Ive seen some one put in to have a chance of having the a weapon they love back in the last addition of halo. I'd like to say i agree 100% with your argument, i feel as though reach has lost its halo'ness so to speak. and bring the spiker into the game will make its much more fun. even if the weapon does not make the cut i would like to see if someone dies from a spiker they should stick to a wall or something if thier close. that should add some good laughs and realism. also your point about adding a new version of the spiker " the shredder" should possibly have new rounds, maybe like shuriken or other cool stuff. well even if the spiker is int in halo: reach who says they can't have it as an add-on, like a weapon pack, named "HALO CLASSIC WEAPON KIT" lol great post man i enjoyed it very much :)
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] FlubbedPig Hylebos, do you think it would be a good idea to make a post for notable ideas? Just throwing out the idea.[/quote] It'd be a great idea, and I'd normally do it, except... 1) Since the Spiker has been pretty much confirmed to be identical in design to the Halo 3 version, it kinda kills a ton of the "What could the Spiker end up looking like?" conversations. 2) I've already carefully read through all 530+ replies once and replied to many of them, and it took several days to just that. Surely you can understand if I am hesitent to go through that process again =\[/quote] Touché.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] FlubbedPig Hylebos, do you think it would be a good idea to make a post for notable ideas? Just throwing out the idea.[/quote] It'd be a great idea, and I'd normally do it, except... 1) Since the Spiker has been pretty much confirmed to be identical in design to the Halo 3 version, it kinda kills a ton of the "What could the Spiker end up looking like?" conversations. 2) I've already carefully read through all 530+ replies once and replied to many of them, and it took several days to just that. Surely you can understand if I am hesitent to go through that process again =\
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Hylebos, do you think it would be a good idea to make a post for notable ideas? Just throwing out the idea.