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Edited by x7L7x:
7/2/2016 9:37:55 PM
245
AN IDEA TO PUT AN END TO (CLASS) NERFS!
*RULES*
-READ ALL OF THIS BEFORE RESPONDING OR VOTING
(You don't want to embarrass yourself by asking a question I already answered in the post / debating something before receiving all the information)
-NO IGNORANT REMARKS OR NAME CALLING
(Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't mean they're wrong and it certainly doesn't justify name calling)
-RESPOND WITH A MATURE, INTELLIGENT RESPONSE WHEN DEBATING AN OPINION.
(Yes, yes. We've all seen your K/D. No one cares. Stop pretending that since yours is higher, you are more correct/the other persons opinion doesn't matter.)
[spoiler]Just to reiterate, no one cares about your K/D[/spoiler]
-EXPLAIN WHY YOU SELECTED THE POLL YOU CHOOSE
(Don't just vote then leave. It doesn't help give proper feedback.)
-HAVE FUN AND BE RESPECTFUL
(Self explanatory Guardians.)
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SO, now that that's out of the way, hear me out. Whenever we think something is overpowered or needs balancing, (whether it actually is op/needs balancing or not) we tend to vocally express that opinion on the forums.
Very often this causes a nerf to happen to the thing needing said balance.
However, most of the time we nerf something, we fail to realize that that op thing was countering something we couldn't see until we already nerfed it.
I have three examples.
The first example being in Year One. When fusion rifles were nerfed, there was nothing to keep the shotguns in check.
The next example is in Year Two. After the reign of terror that was Thorn, a blanket patch was placed over hand cannons nerfing all of them.
This caused Pulse rifles (and certain exotic Hand Cannons) to outperform other weapons because the only thing keeping Pulse Rifles in check were Hand Cannons.
( And the only reason Hand Cannons started reigning supreme was because of the great Auto Rifle nerf. Since the ARs had been nerfed nothing kept the HCs in check)
My final example is from the very beginning of Destiny and carries all the way to this year.
After Blade Dancers were nerfed, there was nothing to keep Gun Slingers in check. After Sun Breakers were introduced in the Taken King, they stopped the Gun Slingers, but nothing could keep THEM in check.
As a result we nerfed Sunbreakers, and suddenly there was nothing keeping Stormcallers and in check. So we nerfed Stormcallers, and there was nothing to keep Night Stalkers in check.
So we nerfed Night Stalker, which gave birth to Sunsingers, Gun Slingers, Storm Callers (again) and Blade Dancers reigning over Crucible for awhile being hell to deal with. It was annoying to deal with and Crucible wasn't as fun to play anymore.
So we nerfed them all and now Striker Titans seem OP. Because we nerfed every counter to them! And what happens when we nerf them? A new ability will show itself and will be considered OP again and the cycle will continue because even though we don't know it now, the Striker Titan is keeping that ability in CHECK.
Do you see the pattern? No matter which class ability we nerf, a new one will appear because the ability we just nerfed, was the only thing that was able to counter the new one that showed itself.
(A personal example (and opinion) is I feel that the Sunsinger's old Viking Funeral with Touch of Flame and Firebolt Grenades, and Hunters old Throwing Knives, kept Shoulder Charge in check. Now that they changed the perks, Strikers aren't as worried running in for a Shoulder Charge because the fear of a throwing knife head shot or a high damage burning Firebolt isn't there.)
SO HERE'S MY SOLUTION!
Rather than nerf the next OP thing let's make a counter for it. Not every class needs a counter to everything and that's OKAY because it will provide balance.
In other words let's make a very advanced Rock, Paper, Scissors. This ability has a higher chance to beat this one and so on. Of course we all have our guns to counter abilities, but I feel this way is better of handling it.
So for instance which ability would be a good one to counter Shoulder Charge and how do we buff that ability without making it too OP?
Examples I personally would pick:
Hunters Smoke Grenade.
(Slows down the momentum deactivating the Shoulder charge perk.)
Hunters Blink Strike
(it should be quick enough to hit first and stop the momentum deactivating the Shoulder Charge perk, but not too much as to where the Titan can't Storm Grip your ass if you're to slow.)
Sunsinger's Solar Wind
(This perk is useless as of right now and the pitiful amount it did push enemies away, I don't even think works correctly anymore. Buff the amount it pushes enemies back and reduce the amount of initial damage it does while keeping the burn damage. I'm not saying like Phalanx strength push but enough to where if the two perks collide at the same time, Sunsinger's will be safe and Strikers will have to readjust.)
Defenders Supresion Grenade
(Buff radius so when thrown at a running Striker it suppresses the Strikers (or any Guardians) abilities.)
Storm Callers Amplitude Melee
(We don't need greater range on this melee. It's already long enough. Rewrite it so it blinds the enemy it hits. BUT EXTREMELY TEMPORARY. Enough to disorient but not enough to where your enemy can't do anything. OR make it so it forces your enemy to do a 180 when hit with it. Or just make it so it stops momentum of a moving person for 2 seconds. Kind of like trying to move in a vex detain bubble. You can still aim shoot and use your abilities, but you can't move in any direction very well for like a second and a half. After all it is electricity coursing through you.)
Now I'm not saying implement those ideas. Those are just examples I came up with off my head to show that instead of nerfing everything we should apply SMALL buffs to SELECT abilities to counter other one's without making said abilities too OP.
Instead of buffing or nerfing whole Classes, lets buff select abilities to help promote better growth for the balance between our subclasses.
What do you guys think?
Also i know gun balance is a thing but thats a whole other topic for a later time. Let's work on our Characters first.
Do you think this idea would work better?
Also please like this post if you vote, for I am trying to get as many people to see this as I can to provide proper feed back.
Edit1: Spelling
Edit2: 253 Votes Guardians!!
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4 RepliesI say we all make a list of buffs for the subclasses. I've made a rough patch list but I could use some help making it. What I have is in the spoiler [spoiler] Titans -Melee range boost Sunbreakers. -Tracking is increased by 5% but at the cost of blast radius -Pressing your melee button will do a melee attack for hammer of sol -Explosive pyre applies to grenade and melee but will do the same damage (so grenade does 170 it'll do another 170 damage) -Thermites get a damage buff -Firekeeper will allow grenade kills to make sunspots Strikers -Shoulder charge takes a another second to proc -Shoulder charge gives a agility boost, but minus one recovery Defenders. - There is a timer for the bubble (like golden gun, sunbreaker, etc) but still recharges. -Blessing and weapons get a 5% buff - Enemies should be slowed when inside bubble. -The bubble will suppress any enemies inside Hunters Gunslinger. -Throwing knives that burn don't cancel burn if you hit a critical. -Swarm grenade does more damage -Gamblers dagger boosts strength -Undo the tripmine nerf Bladedancer. -super time increased (19 swings to 24) -Arcbolt grenade does more damage. -Invisibility is enhanced -Showstopper will act like dark drinker instead is staying in one place -Fleet footed gives you an extra jump Nightstalkers. -Vanish in Smoke bombs last 10 seconds with lockdown on -Marked targets will appear on allies radars and screen. Warlocks -Glide is faster -The Ram only affects voidwalkers armor Voidwalker. -Nova bomb no longer damages you -Bloom explosions now do more bonus damage Sunsinger. -Solar wind is more effective -Solar grenades burn the target regardless of anything -Firebolts burn for 6 seconds -Radiance decreases melee cool down at the same rate as grenades. -Radiance boosts grenade damage -Song of flame shows a ring of fire to show allies the effective range of it. -Radiant skin will give allies more armor and will show a ring of fire to indicate the effective range -Gift of the sun boosts helps to recharge your next grenade -Viking funeral grants a larger damage boost Stormcallers. -Storm grenade does more damage and is more consistent - Weapons Autos -medium impact autos get a 4% damage boost. (Like Zhalo arch types) -Low rof get a 3% damage buff -Slight stability boosts on all autos except high rof -hip fire Reticle changed to a square -mag boost on all low rof autos (except Suros regime) -Counterbalance removed from high rof perk table Pulse rifles -Small increase in damage by roughly 2 or 4% to low and medium rof in order to compete with autos -Slightly decreased dps falloff -hip fire Reticle changed to a circular shape Scouts -Damage against ai is increased by 6% -Accuracy at close range is decreased while accuracy at long range is increased Hand cannons -Hip fire reticle changed to a circular pattern Snipers -When taking damage, snipers will flinch more -Movement speed while this weapon type is pulled out slows down walk speed -Aim assist is lowered by 30% on all legendary high impact snipers. Low impact stays the same -low impact types will get a mag boost Fusions -Can hit critical shots -blast pattern will always be in a circular pattern -Base dps is increased across the board by 3% -Reticle size decreased for more reliable shooting when hip fire is active -Reserve ammo boosted -Glass half full is available to all fusions Shotguns -Stability increased by 10 on all shotguns -reload increased by 15 on all shotguns. -Damage falloff is slightly decreased Sidearms -Increase in base damage -Hipe fire reticle changed to a square -added full auto as a perk to drop on a sidearm -Machine guns -Stabilty decrease on high impact machine guns -Range is slightly increased on fast firing machine guns Swords -Blocking will reduce even more damage Exotics (and legendaries) The chaperone -Range boost -Precision scaler increased Immobius -Hand loaded replaced with hammer forged. -Changed impact and rate of fire to medium impact and medium rate of fire Hereafter -Magazine boost (4 to 5) -Blinding effect is larger and procs faster Black spindle -Scope when ads changed to green instead of blue (to show its of hive origin) -Ammo reserves increased Pocket Infinity -Brought up to year two. -Mag boost (3 to 4) Sleeper simulant -Shots that hit enemies will bounce towards other enemies -Replaced injection mold with perfect balance -Replaced hip fire with surplus Hawkmoon (HAWKMOON!!!!) -Luck in the chamber bullets do a little more damage. (105 to 112) First curse -reload increase -Accuracy at longer ranges is more reliable -When the first curse perk is active, you gain a damage buff by 2% No time to explain -Muzzle flash decreased -Sight changed to the Strangers rifle sight Red death -Replaced snapshot with reinforced barrel. -Replaced unflinching win reactive reload Zhalo supercell -Lightning fx when aiming down sights is lowered (like bad juju was) -Chain lighting happens more often -Replaced braced frame with extended mag. -Stability boost to bring it up to 52 on the stability chart -Fabian strategy -Mag boost (40 to 58) -Stability boost (let's be honest it's needs some love) Hard light -Recoil bounce is reduced General -All year one vendor weapons and armor are available in year three -Legacy engrams from Xur cost less -Xurs loot table is based on your light. If you are 310 and above, then his loot will be 310. If not it will be 290 -Taken captains have a 10 second cool down until they throw another blinding bubble -Taken psions will multiply less -SRL returns -Twilight Garrison and Tarentella drop chances increased by 18% -Fast Rez armor drop chance reduced by about 19% Bungie took some of my ideas in the last patch, I say we keep this up! [/spoiler]
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Edited by Legend of Jordy: 7/2/2016 11:46:29 PMYes! Buff Solar Wind!
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This makes perfect sense... Another thing it will eliminate is having to completely relearn a new play style with classes that are being nerfed...I have had to relearn a new play style several times... Of course you will have to learn new play styles in certain situations but overall you wouldn't really have to change how you like to play
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How bungie could effectively obtain our opinions on nerfs, buffs, updates or anything else. Bungie could effectively obtain our opinions by polling us. However this poll cannot be done in the forums(we are too biased and too small of a portion of the player base.) The poll would be in game. Optional Comments are a must. Polls should not be "should we nerf titans? Yes or no". Polls should be "we are nerfing shoulder charge to death. Shoulder charge will now require a 5 second cooldown when used. Shoulder charge will also do 20% less damage in crucible so it is not lethal. Peregrine Greaves will now only do 2x damage so it cannot kill armoured supers. Do you think this is fair?" Choices: Yes No Only the damaged debuff Only the cooldown Only the greaves debuff Only the damage debuff and cooldown Only the damage debuff and greaves debuff Only the cooldown and greaves debuff One of these choices with modifications(pick that answer and this one, and add a comment on change) This poll does not affect me Other/reasoning(comment and pick yes or no) What do you guys think? I think this should be implemented asap as it's a great way for community feedback. It shouldn't be hard to have a graph made from the poll, plus search comments based on keywords and such. Yes it's coding, yes it'll take a while. But if bungie did it right it could be a great example for other games, like the division, CoD, even little games like dead by daylight. Polls don't just have to be about nerfing, it can be too see what the community thinks about a new update or new content. Can we get this trending so bungie sees it?
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Great idea and thoughts.
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Bungie is unfair! Luke Smith is in there! Standing at the concession! Plotting his oppression! I will restore the working man to his rightful glory. I will dismantle this oppressive establishment board by board! I will saw the tables of tyranny in half. Gnaw at the ankles of big business! Smoggy will be so proud!
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Here is how you rebalance everything [spoiler]return everything to their most powerful state[/spoiler] [spoiler]remove pvp[/spoiler]
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2 RepliesWhat needs a buff is hunters melee; blink strike blink strike needs to have a smaller finding radius( this is where you could melee to your side and kill them in front of you.) and increase its damage: BLINK STRIKE IS USELESS!! You might as well melee your enemy twice with your normal melee, because it'll take 2 hits even if both are a blink strike.
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That already existed, night stalkers were a counter to SS, Strikers to BD, etc. when people use these counters then it creates a meta like HoW & TTK with no class diversity, hence why you balance instead of create counters.
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10 RepliesI personally don't think anything needs to be done about SC at all. I don't have a problem with getting hit with SC a lot. Every now and then one will catch me off guard while I'm trying to shoot someone else and kill me or the Titan will get lucky and hit me while I'm trying to get out my shotty or gun him down with a primary. All you really need to do is pay a little attention to your radar and surroundings and you'll see them coming. Decent ideas though.
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There's one way to stop the NERFS but it will never happen. People simply need to stop complaining about specific classes, supers, and weapons. See, once one person comes here and cries, others see that and feel like it's okay to do the same. And then it just escalates. Nobody feels the shame of coming here and crying. There's zero pride. Unfortunately, Crucible is life to far too many people. When those people keep getting killed by certain things, they can't or won't say to themselves, "damn, I just got bested." Instead, they say, "wah wah wah that's too OP, wah wah wah wah". If they do that enough, Bungie NERFS that particular thing and the cycle continues. How about, stop the crying, and see what Bungie does then...
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You have your buff/nerf timeline messed up. But otherwise good ideas.
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Some good ideas. I'd expect blade dancer and locks to become the new issue if striker is nerfed. The rush play style works good vs bolt grenades as they become hard to place. And FoH counters arc blade storm trance and radiance well. I'd say the trip mine nerf was more responsible for the increased striker use than throwing knife. Trip mines were near identical to brute spike grenades from halo. The nerf meant that one of the most used pvp classes no longer had a sticky grenade. Sticky grenades forced a kill trade or stopped shoulder charge a good deal of the time, which made shoulder charge less worth it. Flux grenades also don't do enough damage as certain max armor builds can survive them. But overall I would say shoulder charge needs a rebalance (buff + nerf). Combining ideas from how halo implements the ability, and how over watch used it on the reinhardt character. So in short easier to use no time limit to use it after you start sprinting, but not a guaranteed kill. Give it a nice target push so you could get the kill off a target wall impact and possibly add a short duration stun or disorientate. The other route is to make this a line area attack that basically acts as bowling ball hitting all targets in the way with knock back and disorientate but no OHK. But yeah nerfs alone usually create more problems especially when they don't look to correct the power shift preemptively.
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2 RepliesTL;DR
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Sign here if you saw the length of this post and left as your eyeballs rolled into the back of your head
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2 RepliesEdited by iMoto Bro: 7/2/2016 10:01:37 PMSo this post was supposed to about class nerfs and the first half of it is spent insulting the readers in the spoilers and preface to the actual post. Rules? Seriously? GTFO. And then the actual post talks more about weapons than classes... Anyway, in the part about "things keeping other things in check" you were completely wrong. Fusion rifles didn't keep shotguns in check. Other shotguns did. Fusion rifles were definitely over-nerfed but they weren't keeping shotguns in check before. And there was nothing "keeping pulse rifles in check" in year one. They were garbage in year one, period. Bungie overbuffed them in year 2 and now they have one of the fastest times to kill for any primary weapon type. The problem is over-nerfing & over-buffing. Bungie makes massive changes sometimes that are ridiculous. The best example of over nerfing: auto rifles in year one. They were good at any range and Bungie over-nerfed them. They were the first thing to ever be nerfed, and they over-did it. And it was mostly due to complaints about SUROS Regime. Best example of over-nerfing in year 2: Handcannons. They were also good at any range and that was obviously a problem. But once again Bungie over-nerfed them because of so many complaints about Exotic Handcannons. And in year 2 Pulse Rifles were over-buffed, to the point where it's possible to kill people with 2 bursts from the highest impact archetype, and 3 bursts from any other archetype. At least now in year 2, they seem to be making changes to specific archetypes of weapons rather than doing blanket nerfs. And all of that same logic applies to classes. Bungie overdoes it when they make changes. But good players learn to adapt and deal with it. You should too, instead of making massive posts like this.
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1 ReplyI didn't read it but voted anyway. Suck a D.
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Just put a "counters X, loses to Y" in the top of the subclasses.
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1 ReplyVery nice post +1 But the answer is much simpler It comes down to bungo They either don't want actual balance or they really don't know what they're doing Other than that though I feel classes are fairly balanced
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3 RepliesEdited by bobswerski: 7/2/2016 9:48:19 PMIt's certainly a logical approach to balance but your basic premise that shoulder charge is OP, dominating crucible, and even more inexplicably, [i]has no counter[/i] is fatally flawed. And the nerf to [i]throwing knives[/i] is the problem? That's just insane, I'm sorry. We don't need to come up with a counter to shoulder charge anyway, it already exists: Shottys are a definite hard counter to shoulder charge, as opposed to, say, hardscoping down a hallway and forgetting that your radar exists. Conclusion: [b]You're making the same mistake[/b], trying to do something about shoulder charge, which is in no way OP but is actually a good counter to what's really ailing PvP right now, which is campy sniping bullshit play. One thing we don't need is to slow things down even further!
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1 ReplyI just wanted to say that i responded and voted with out reading beyond being told not to.
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3 RepliesIf bungie balanced everything at once and together, this wouldn't be a problem.
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1 ReplySorry about being a Dick earlier, Now that i re read your post i think ive found what SC is Keeping in check. Blade Dancers. Blade Dancers are kinda like Mini Shoulder Charges. If Damage on SC got Nerfed, It couldnt battle Blades. But my thing with SC is that Warlocks have 0 Counters to it. We have no evade. Blink Sucks so it doesn't really count. Maybe give warlocks boots that grant a Short Ground Teleport? Im not sure.
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Like overwatch
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1 ReplyEdited by purgy330: 7/2/2016 5:09:06 PMIm going to comment a link to this post on nerf threads
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4 RepliesHere is the thing- with all the changes you proposed, if they went into effect, shoulder charge would become pretty much useless since any charged melee would stop shoulder charge completely. Then what would happen- Everyone would gravitate to Juggernaut. Then, some kind of change would happen to render juggernaut pretty much useless. And because of this chain, 2 of the striker's best perks would become worthless. The only thing that I really think should happen to shoulder charge is that maybe the tracking might need a slight nerf, but only slightly. Other than that it is completely balanced and counterable.
