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3/9/2010 11:22:42 PM
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The "Death" of the Spartan Laser: My Thoughts on the Matter.

[quote][/quote][b]Introduction[/b][quote][/quote] [i]"The Spartan Laser was dead: to begin with. There is no doubt whatever about that. The register of his burial was signed by the Creative Director, the Audio Director, the Executive Producer, and the Campaign Design Lead. Sage signed it; and Sage's name was good upon 'Change, for anything he chose to put his hand to. Old Splazer was as dead as a door-nail."[/i] [quote][b][u]Update[/b][/u] As of the 16th page the main support for my arguement has been pretty much shot up by various comminuty members so for now this is just a collection of thoughts and reasoning rather than evidence and arguements. I didn't think of sandbox balance on a map by map basis, and made a rather large assumption that both the Spartan Laser and the "Covenant Launcher" (see Part 1) would be on the same map every game. Various users pointed out that in fact, they could spawn on different maps as the vehicle / map balance required. As of now I can't come up with a way to counter this, so for now, my arguement is uncogent (for those of you who haven't taken a logic class, that means that the conclusion is unlikely given the premises). Feel free to keep dicussing however. The rest of the original post continues below: [/quote] Indeed, it is true, the Spartan Laser will likely not return for another dose of wacky shenanigans come Fall 2010 when Halo Reach is released. [quote][b]Clarification:[/b] This is my conclusion that I have come to based upon the reasoning presented in the rest of the thread. Bungie has not officially confirmed that the Laser is out, nor have they officially confirmed that the laser is in. In this thread I am attempting to make a prediction of what Reach will be like, and I forsee it without the [i]exact[/i] one hit kill laser based anti-vehicle weapon we knew in Halo 3. In the event that the Laser is in Reach, remember to flame me, not Bungie. [/quote] [b][u]At this moment I urge the reader, instead of angrily replying to my thread, to take the time to read my entire post[/u][/b], for I believe it to be well thought out and interesting, for not only am I the Harbinger of Doom for the Spartan Laser, but for the Covenant Beam Rifle as well, which must be murdered on this day to plunge a stake through the Spartan Laser's heart once and for all. At this moment, the reader might ask: [i]"Why? Why would Bungie remove these weapons from Reach? They worked fine in Halo 3, and if you couldn't adapt to these weapons to survive, that's your own problem."[/i] However, I seek to avoid that sort of discussion, at least in my original post. The point of this thread is not [i]"Should it be done?"[/i] but [i]"It is done, and here is why I believe this."[/i] I wish to show you why the Spartan Laser won't be in Reach based upon the evidence that we already know is in the game. Whether or not it was the right decision or whether there could have been some alternative that would have allowed the Spartan Laser to be in Reach is not the focus of this thread. I wish you luck, this is going to be lengthy. [quote][/quote][b]Part 1: The Covenant Launcher[/b][quote][/quote] The first sign of the death of the Spartan Laser appeared last Wednesday in the [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/vidaudio.aspx?c=58&i=24995]Halo Reach Multiplayer Trailer.[/url] About 47 seconds into the trailer you might have spotted [url=http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/Hylebosaiden/Bnet%20Image%20Resources/CovenantLauncher.jpg]This Weapon[/url] which will be referred to henceforth as [i]"The Covenant Launcher"[/i]. Clearly this weapon is a evolution of Fuel Rod Cannon, but it's appearance in the trailer was not the first time we've seen or [i][u]heard[/u][/i] of it. In the [url=http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&link=BWU_012910]Bungie Weekly Update: 01.29.10[/url], Urk was kind enough to provide readers with some source audio from some of the Halo: Reach weapons that Bungie had unveiled in the past couple of weeks. In addition to the weapons we already knew about, Urk gave us one extra sound file for the [url=http://www.bungie.net/images/games/reach/audio/Mystery.mp3][i]"Mysterious Newcomer".[/i][/url] Upon listening to the sound file, the reader may realize that the sound of the shots fired at the 5 second mark is identical to the sound of the shots fired 47 seconds into the Halo: Reach Multiplayer Trailer. The common consensus is that, indeed, the Mysterious Newcomer and the Covenant Launcher are one and the same. If you listen again to the sound file, from 0 seconds to 1 second you'll hear computer like sounds, followed by a whirring sound that increases in revolution from 1 second to 5 seconds when the shots are fired. Based upon this and the end resulting footage that we saw, I'm supposing that the weapon works as follows: You aim the Covenant Launcher at a vehicular target, and you press and hold R to acquire a lock on the target, which takes a second. Once you are locked onto your target, you continue holding the trigger for four seconds while the Covenant Launcher charges up, at the end of which, if your are still locked on to your target, the weapon fires three bursts of plasma shots. If your reticule is close enough to the target when the shot leaves the tube, it will begin to home, otherwise it will travel in a straight line (which explains why the 3rd shot did not home on the warthog in the trailer, the hog must have been moving fast enough to throw the reticule off so the final shot that was fired wasn't aimed close enough to the target to respond to the lock.) At this moment, the reader might be wondering: [i]"What the Hell does this have to do with the Spartan Laser?"[/i] Balance. An ideal sandbox is one where all the weapons have a clearly defined niche, so there are no worthless or redundant weapons. Answer me the following question based on the following scenario honestly: [quote]You are playing a game of Capture the Flag on Valhalla, and there is currently a warthog butchering your forces in the center of the map. Before you lies a table with two boxes labeled "A" and "B". [i]"What the hell did Shishka do to Valhalla this time?"[/i] you ask your friend. Your friend replies [i]"The bastard put an anti-vehicle weapon in each of those boxes that are capable of destroying the Warthog that is losing us our map control. The weapon in box A requires a 4 second charge time before firing three homing shots that may or may not be dodged by your opponent. The weapon in box B requires a 4 second charge time before instantly killing your opponent if you are aiming your reticule at the target. Hurry up and choose, that warthog is really killing us out here."[/i][/quote] I ask the reader: [i]"What weapon would you choose to ensure that your team succeeds?"[/i] [quote][i]"Why, the weapon in box B of course,"[/i] you reply, [i]"If I use that to attack the Warthog, he'll have four seconds to break the line of sight with me or he'll die. On the other hand, if I use weapon in box A, he'll have four seconds to break the line of sight with me [u]and[/u] additional time to get to cover as my homing shots travel towards him. Because the weapon in box A give more time for my opponent to survive, of course I will use the weapon in box B."[/i][/quote] And there you have it. If the Spartan Laser and the Covenant Launcher existed in the same game, the Covenant Launcher would become a useless weapon in comparison, like the Missile Pod, doomed only to be used as a first choice only when the Spartan Laser loses its charge. The presence of the Covenant Launcher alone is reason enough to believe that the Spartan Laser has been axed, but I know this Community. You are very resourceful, and will find any solution you can Allow me to further extinguish your hope. [Edited on 03.17.2010 9:55 AM PDT]
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#Halo #Reach

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  • they may be fakes, but they look kinda real but also fake. hopefully some1 can find this out

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  • ok -deleted- [Edited on 03.10.2010 4:30 PM PST]

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  • the spartan laser is in reach, there is new leaked photo's out.. sad i know... but some1 inside took them

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] P3P5I [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Soruyao [/quote] Good post. In other replies about the laser I referenced this too. I'm ok with dying by a weapon where I knew I had a chance (no matter how small) of dodging it. I am not however ok with dying by a weapon that'll kill me so fast I can't even make a turn or get out of my vehicle. btw Hylebos, good thread. Saved.[/quote] Exactly. And the absolute worst thing is to be killed by it and not even see the laser hit you, due to lag. Nothing has made me curse at my screen the way having that happen does.

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  • Very well done thread. Finally, a speculation thread without ignorance and with support. 5/5 And you made my point and I believe you.

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  • Well written thread and I agree that the covenant launcher is the most balanced anti vehicle weapon. It takes the skill to fire of a laser and the skill to dodge of a lock on rocket. The covenant beam may or may not be a sniper, if it is then you are probably right and if it isn't, then there is probably another sniper out there somewhere. But who knows, the laser and beam rifle could still be in Reach, the beard chooses.

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  • This, is why I need a printer that way I can print it out and read it on the dump instead of reading all of this while I could be doing other meaningless things with my spare time. Oh and, thank god the Splaser is making an exit, I hate that weapon. And thank you, OP, for showing its demise.

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  • Okay, I'd love to make a lengthy response, but I a) don't have time before work, and b) am neither here-nor-there on the lasers inclusion. I also don't wish to repeat was has been said time and time again through these 13 pages. However, to address some points that stuck out to me. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] halo2jumper For the -blam!- LAST TIME,the Laser is not overpowered or something. It fits his role perfectly in Halo 3. The Vehicles are overpowered,especially the Warthog,Ghost and hornet.[/quote] While I may enjoy the Spartan Laser from time to time, if it is able to kill most things with one kill, then it's overpowered. The Warthog is not overpowered, as it's easy to take out, and the same applies for the Ghost. Hell, I can snipe a driver out of both. The Hornet may have been overpowered, which is why the rockets were removed for Matchmaking games. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Brian OA Plus, the Laser wasn't invented until [i]after[/i] the Fall of Reach.[/quote] Despite it's inclusion in Halo Wars (which is canon, shut up nay-sayers), I want you to find me a conclusive production and manufacture date on the Spartan Laser, not it's eventual conception in Halo 3. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Methew Except that Bungie has confirmed it's canon save for the bit with the Spartans having shields during gameplay.[/quote] To address this because it annoys me, the Spartans in Halo Wars are never canonically stated as having shields. It's a gameplay mechanic made to be a nostalgic reference to the shields featured in the FPS games. The Spartans in Halo Wars do not have shields. (In a canonical sense.) [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DeltaFiveZero [b]Putting this monster to rest, once and for all[/b] Halo: Reach takes place before the events of Halo CE, some time in early 2552 or before. [/quote] Fall of Reach (the battle, as well as the book,) takes place on August 30th, 2552. The discovery of Installation 04, and the events of Halo: Combat Evolved, takes place on September 19th, 2552. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DeltaFiveZero The W/AV M6 G/GNR was not fielded until late 2552 or early 2553.[/quote] I want a date for this. I'll help you along; thus far one doesn't exist. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DeltaFiveZero Bungie is hawkeye about preserving canon, and it would not be possible to field it.[/quote] Oh really? Everything was a prototype at one point or another. I can almost guarantee that as the Spartan Laser was a completed weapon in Nov. 2552, it would have been a reasonably fielded prototype for a spec ops mission four months prior. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DeltaFiveZero Despite my own reasons of the game being so much better without it, it can't be put in anyway. So suck it up.[/quote] Your opinion doesn't count as fact. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos The Laser and the Covenant Launcher on the other hand is different. They really occupy the same niche unlike these other weapons. While before you could say [i]"Weapon A is good in [Scenario A] because of [Aspect A] and [Aspect B] while Weapon B is good in [Scenario B] because of [Aspect C] and [Aspect D]"[/i], you really can't say the same thing about the Covenant Launcher and the Splazer.[/quote] I can think of a scenario where both would be useful. Situation A: You're playing on a relatively open map, with larger weapons able to move about freely, and aircraft is everywhere. For this scenario, the CL would fill the slot efficiently. Situation B: You're playing on a map that has several obstacles, such as small buildings and industrial machinery. Small gaps are everywhere, making shots a 50-50 chance. For this, the Spartan Laser would be highly useful, as you would have to track the vehicle, but with a highly accurate payoff. The obstacles would get in the way of the CL too much, but the Spartan Laser would be a fitting power weapon. Now to jet off, and return to see a continued flame/debate (not pointing fingers)

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Soruyao [/quote] Good post. In other replies about the laser I referenced this too. I'm ok with dying by a weapon where I knew I had a chance (no matter how small) of dodging it. I am not however ok with dying by a weapon that'll kill me so fast I can't even make a turn or get out of my vehicle. btw Hylebos, good thread. Saved. [Edited on 03.10.2010 3:15 PM PST]

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  • Sparten laser is dead in matchmaking... RIP. But it will probably make an appearance in the campaign, forge and custom games. Firefight may be included.

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  • I hope they're keeping the lazer out. It was hitscan making it impossible to drive a banshee without being immediately assploded.

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  • In my experience, the laser killed vehicles almost as much as the halo 2 rockets. I do think there is a slight balance issue with the sheer effectiveness of the laser, but I don't think that the reason so many of us hated the laser was the effectiveness. I think the main problem is related to something I refer to as a skill V skill interaction. Put most simply, a sVs is when a player is involved in his or her own death in some way. A fight between two BRs is almost always "pure" sVs interaction. At any moment the fight can be turned around in favor of the guy who got shot first. (Through a well placed grenade, or a ninja, or simply having better aim than the other guy.) I'm not saying a player using an anti vehicle weapon should be a "pure" sVs. Things should be heavily stacked in favor of the infantry guy in that situation. However, the driver/pilot be involved in some way; be it a slight chance to dodge, take cover, or bail out of the vehicle completely. Dying to the rockets was fun, because it made a whooshing sound and if you were really fast, sometimes you could dodge it as a result. (Of course, most of the time it was whoosh>kaboom) Dying to the laser is not fun because I'll be flying around and my vehicle will suddenly detonate, then half a second later I'll see the red beam. I had no chance whatsoever to react, and no idea I was about to die. Honestly, it just felt like my banshee was built badly and just happened to blow up sometimes. Whether or not the laser misses is almost always entirely on the skill of the person using the gun. Players should have at the very least the absolute minimum warning necessary for a really quick player to react and avoid instant death, because that's much more fun. The closest thing to the way the laser "feels" to die to is being killed by an unseen sniper. However, it takes MUCH more skill to kill someone with one shot with the sniper. If the first shot doesn't kill, then the player has a chance to react and at the very least plink the sniper once with their BR, which makes it exponentially more difficult for the sniper to finish him off. I think the plasma mortar will create a sVs interaction in most situations. In the very least, it will give us that "OH SH-" moment where we know we're about to die. That's infinitely better than having it seem completely sudden and random.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] yerfdog1935 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] The Ordinator Listen to the newest Podcast. ~Ordi[/quote] When is the mention of the Spartan laser?[/quote] Supposedly at some point in the podcast they make reference to "The Old Laser". I haven't exactly looked into it yet, but I plan on it. It's entirely possible that they misinterpreted what was said in the podcast. In other news: I'll be making a super reply later this evening to various people who put effort into making their posts later tonight. [Edited on 03.10.2010 3:03 PM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] The Ordinator Listen to the newest Podcast. ~Ordi[/quote] When is the mention of the Spartan laser?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xXFinal JewelXx Wait a second didn't we see Spartan Laser in some drain leakage awhile ago. It looked excatly like it but with a heartbeat sensor, plus the reticle also looked oddly familiar to the Halo 3 one. Well since then it can be axed or it can be still in the game. That drain leakage is 100% true so no denieing we did see it. Well they can remove it but on that gun model it seems alot of work went into it, it looked very detialed. So yeah you have no proof yet.[/quote] You need to be added to the Tl:DR counter.

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  • Wait a second didn't we see Spartan Laser in some drain leakage awhile ago. It looked excatly like it but with a heartbeat sensor, plus the reticle also looked oddly familiar to the Halo 3 one. Well since then it can be axed or it can be still in the game. That drain leakage is 100% true so no denieing we did see it. Well they can remove it but on that gun model it seems alot of work went into it, it looked very detialed. So yeah you have no proof yet.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Halaxis Finally, the Covie launcher seems even more OP'ed than the laser. You're talking about a plasma mortar than can lock onto vehicles, bombard bases, can take out a tank if all 3 shots connect, AND had large amounts of splash![/quote] I don't see how anything can be more OP than the laser. Let's compare: [u] Laser: [/u] *it's a one-hit kill. True it fires three shots in one burst, but not all 3 shots have to land to score a vehicle kill. *Unlimited range mostly (3/4 of sandtrap is close enough to infinite no matter how you word it.) *5 shot battery *instant travel time. *Has a red light to alert people a laser is aiming at you but that can be avoided by looking away, charge up, then at the last moment aim at the vehicle. Besides the charge time on the laser is too short for a vehicle to go anywhere. [u] Plasma weapon [/u] *Has a charge time like the laser. *shots take time to hit the vehicle (can be avoided). *Probably take multiple hits to kill a fully intact vehicle. *shots home in on vehicles. From the looks of it, I'd say the laser is pretty overpowered. I could play Avalanche, get the laser, camp at our lift and not let any vehicles through the middle, waste all 5 shots on enemy vehicles/infantry and by the time I'm done, the laser has respawned. Low ammo... yea right. But just an analogy to prove my point. You are controlling the hill in Valhalla. A warthog is seen driving from your enemies' base to you. You have two choices: a) Covie Missile pod b) Spartan Laser I think we both know what you're going to choose. Why choose a weapon that takes time to reach a target rather than the other weapon that is just a point and charge light of death that accomplishes the same end result? The Splaser is better than the Covie pod in all areas of anti-vehicle warfare and it even excels at other areas as well. Even Bungie staff (forgot name) said they don't want redundant weapons in this game (i.e. laser out).

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  • And the best read of the day goes to...

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  • It was in the Leakes Screens, And I Saw It. I'm not Telling You How To get The Screenies, But The SPLAZER Was Definitely In The Screenies. You Lose. [Edited on 03.10.2010 2:46 PM PST]

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  • tl;dr

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  • I came to read forums not a life story.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Halaxis You missed one point. The Covie launcher is nearly PURE anit-vehicle. Trying to take on groups of enemies with a bastard child of the Rockets and Splazer is suicide. Firing 3 plasma bursts after a 5 second charge? A PP could kill faster than that. The Splazer can be used for anti-vehicle, but 90% of the time it is used for anti-infantry. It was meant to be usable close range as well. There's a reason it exists on High Ground and Construct. They have different uses. Covie-Vehicles and defense, Splaser-infantry and offense. [/quote]In my mind the Rocket Launcher would be the Anti-Vehicle / Anti-Infantry hybrid, because it is very adept at killing vehicles (but not at long range like the Covenant Launcher) and killing Infantry (but not at long range like the Sniper Rifle). On the other hand, the Splazer is also both anti-vehicle and anti-infantry, however, it kills at all ranges, which reduces the importance of the Covenant Launcher. [quote]Also, I suggest being less arrogant. You sound like a tool.[/quote] I really can't control that, it's just the way I write, I apologize if it bugs you.[/quote] Thanks for replying. I like a guy who patrols his threads. Anyways, there a lot of misconceptions when it comes to the Splazer. For one, it's not a one shot kill. It deals 240 damage over a (Very) brief period of time. That is how infantry and vehicles can sometime survive. Second, it doesn't have infinite range. Around 3/4ths of Sandtrap is the max. Also, if you noticed, people rarely use rockets for vehicles any more. They have become nearly a Pure anti-infantry weapon. I believe the Covie launcher will fall into the same role, but with vehicles. Finally, the Covie launcher seems even more OP'ed than the laser. You're talking about a plasma mortar than can lock onto vehicles, bombard bases, can take out a tank if all 3 shots connect, AND had large amounts of splash! In the end, it would be: Covie Launcher : Mortar/Vehicle killer Spartan Laser : Direct line of sight, mid-range anti vehicle/anti-infantry weapon Rocket Luancher: Close range Infantry Each of these weapons now have a niche/role, problem solved (Maybe make Roks a little stronger).

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Phoenix1330 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] oTrIdEnTo The laser has been confirmed, it has a pic in Game informer. Dumby :D[/quote]link? i really want to see this[/quote] TI wasn't in GI, he is BS'in. And people don't post crap like "OP the post is long" or "that was very long". If you aren't going to contribute to the thread then don't post at all.

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  • Unnesesary long post op. Bottom line: you are right.

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  • 1. Text wall = :( 2. Lots of cool info

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] oTrIdEnTo The laser has been confirmed, it has a pic in Game informer. Dumby :D[/quote]link? i really want to see this

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