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#Halo

3/9/2010 11:22:42 PM
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The "Death" of the Spartan Laser: My Thoughts on the Matter.

[quote][/quote][b]Introduction[/b][quote][/quote] [i]"The Spartan Laser was dead: to begin with. There is no doubt whatever about that. The register of his burial was signed by the Creative Director, the Audio Director, the Executive Producer, and the Campaign Design Lead. Sage signed it; and Sage's name was good upon 'Change, for anything he chose to put his hand to. Old Splazer was as dead as a door-nail."[/i] [quote][b][u]Update[/b][/u] As of the 16th page the main support for my arguement has been pretty much shot up by various comminuty members so for now this is just a collection of thoughts and reasoning rather than evidence and arguements. I didn't think of sandbox balance on a map by map basis, and made a rather large assumption that both the Spartan Laser and the "Covenant Launcher" (see Part 1) would be on the same map every game. Various users pointed out that in fact, they could spawn on different maps as the vehicle / map balance required. As of now I can't come up with a way to counter this, so for now, my arguement is uncogent (for those of you who haven't taken a logic class, that means that the conclusion is unlikely given the premises). Feel free to keep dicussing however. The rest of the original post continues below: [/quote] Indeed, it is true, the Spartan Laser will likely not return for another dose of wacky shenanigans come Fall 2010 when Halo Reach is released. [quote][b]Clarification:[/b] This is my conclusion that I have come to based upon the reasoning presented in the rest of the thread. Bungie has not officially confirmed that the Laser is out, nor have they officially confirmed that the laser is in. In this thread I am attempting to make a prediction of what Reach will be like, and I forsee it without the [i]exact[/i] one hit kill laser based anti-vehicle weapon we knew in Halo 3. In the event that the Laser is in Reach, remember to flame me, not Bungie. [/quote] [b][u]At this moment I urge the reader, instead of angrily replying to my thread, to take the time to read my entire post[/u][/b], for I believe it to be well thought out and interesting, for not only am I the Harbinger of Doom for the Spartan Laser, but for the Covenant Beam Rifle as well, which must be murdered on this day to plunge a stake through the Spartan Laser's heart once and for all. At this moment, the reader might ask: [i]"Why? Why would Bungie remove these weapons from Reach? They worked fine in Halo 3, and if you couldn't adapt to these weapons to survive, that's your own problem."[/i] However, I seek to avoid that sort of discussion, at least in my original post. The point of this thread is not [i]"Should it be done?"[/i] but [i]"It is done, and here is why I believe this."[/i] I wish to show you why the Spartan Laser won't be in Reach based upon the evidence that we already know is in the game. Whether or not it was the right decision or whether there could have been some alternative that would have allowed the Spartan Laser to be in Reach is not the focus of this thread. I wish you luck, this is going to be lengthy. [quote][/quote][b]Part 1: The Covenant Launcher[/b][quote][/quote] The first sign of the death of the Spartan Laser appeared last Wednesday in the [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/vidaudio.aspx?c=58&i=24995]Halo Reach Multiplayer Trailer.[/url] About 47 seconds into the trailer you might have spotted [url=http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/Hylebosaiden/Bnet%20Image%20Resources/CovenantLauncher.jpg]This Weapon[/url] which will be referred to henceforth as [i]"The Covenant Launcher"[/i]. Clearly this weapon is a evolution of Fuel Rod Cannon, but it's appearance in the trailer was not the first time we've seen or [i][u]heard[/u][/i] of it. In the [url=http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&link=BWU_012910]Bungie Weekly Update: 01.29.10[/url], Urk was kind enough to provide readers with some source audio from some of the Halo: Reach weapons that Bungie had unveiled in the past couple of weeks. In addition to the weapons we already knew about, Urk gave us one extra sound file for the [url=http://www.bungie.net/images/games/reach/audio/Mystery.mp3][i]"Mysterious Newcomer".[/i][/url] Upon listening to the sound file, the reader may realize that the sound of the shots fired at the 5 second mark is identical to the sound of the shots fired 47 seconds into the Halo: Reach Multiplayer Trailer. The common consensus is that, indeed, the Mysterious Newcomer and the Covenant Launcher are one and the same. If you listen again to the sound file, from 0 seconds to 1 second you'll hear computer like sounds, followed by a whirring sound that increases in revolution from 1 second to 5 seconds when the shots are fired. Based upon this and the end resulting footage that we saw, I'm supposing that the weapon works as follows: You aim the Covenant Launcher at a vehicular target, and you press and hold R to acquire a lock on the target, which takes a second. Once you are locked onto your target, you continue holding the trigger for four seconds while the Covenant Launcher charges up, at the end of which, if your are still locked on to your target, the weapon fires three bursts of plasma shots. If your reticule is close enough to the target when the shot leaves the tube, it will begin to home, otherwise it will travel in a straight line (which explains why the 3rd shot did not home on the warthog in the trailer, the hog must have been moving fast enough to throw the reticule off so the final shot that was fired wasn't aimed close enough to the target to respond to the lock.) At this moment, the reader might be wondering: [i]"What the Hell does this have to do with the Spartan Laser?"[/i] Balance. An ideal sandbox is one where all the weapons have a clearly defined niche, so there are no worthless or redundant weapons. Answer me the following question based on the following scenario honestly: [quote]You are playing a game of Capture the Flag on Valhalla, and there is currently a warthog butchering your forces in the center of the map. Before you lies a table with two boxes labeled "A" and "B". [i]"What the hell did Shishka do to Valhalla this time?"[/i] you ask your friend. Your friend replies [i]"The bastard put an anti-vehicle weapon in each of those boxes that are capable of destroying the Warthog that is losing us our map control. The weapon in box A requires a 4 second charge time before firing three homing shots that may or may not be dodged by your opponent. The weapon in box B requires a 4 second charge time before instantly killing your opponent if you are aiming your reticule at the target. Hurry up and choose, that warthog is really killing us out here."[/i][/quote] I ask the reader: [i]"What weapon would you choose to ensure that your team succeeds?"[/i] [quote][i]"Why, the weapon in box B of course,"[/i] you reply, [i]"If I use that to attack the Warthog, he'll have four seconds to break the line of sight with me or he'll die. On the other hand, if I use weapon in box A, he'll have four seconds to break the line of sight with me [u]and[/u] additional time to get to cover as my homing shots travel towards him. Because the weapon in box A give more time for my opponent to survive, of course I will use the weapon in box B."[/i][/quote] And there you have it. If the Spartan Laser and the Covenant Launcher existed in the same game, the Covenant Launcher would become a useless weapon in comparison, like the Missile Pod, doomed only to be used as a first choice only when the Spartan Laser loses its charge. The presence of the Covenant Launcher alone is reason enough to believe that the Spartan Laser has been axed, but I know this Community. You are very resourceful, and will find any solution you can Allow me to further extinguish your hope. [Edited on 03.17.2010 9:55 AM PDT]
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#Halo #Reach

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  • You have a good point.. but the spartan laser was too cool... hopefully it wont go though...

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jorj17 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Halaxis Did you even read my post, or just decided to rush to a uniformed post?[/quote]That applies to this post. [quote]*it's a one-hit kill. True it fires three shots in one burst, but not all 3 shots have to land to score a vehicle kill. Wrong, 80 points per beam, so 2 have to hit to kill a person[/quote] The Spartan Laser actually shoots five shots. And hitting two of these, or even all five, is a walk in the park. [quote]*Unlimited range mostly (3/4 of sandtrap is close enough to infinite no matter how you word it.) Point makes no sense whats so ever[/quote]It means that the range...is long...and the Splazer guy can block off huge areas off the map...and kill the Hog across the map...how does that point make no sense? [quote]*5 shot battery And? Elaborate[/quote]That is greater than the number of veichles on a map. [quote]*instant travel time. Yes, HITSCAN. It's called that for a reason.[/quote]Yes, and that makes it overpowered. [quote]*Has a red light to alert people a laser is aiming at you but that can be avoided by looking away, charge up, then at the last moment aim at the vehicle. Besides the charge time on the laser is too short for a vehicle to go anywhere. That is an opinion, there for holds no water [/quote] That is a fact, and holds tons of water.[/quote] Okay, 5 shots. That 45 damage per shot. So 3 need to hit, and thats for a player. Thats even harder. Your opinion does not count as fact. If you are stupid enough to charge a warthog into the the open, then yes, you deserve to die. As for Sandtrap, there is enough dunes and structure to hide behind. Read the new post from the Sandtrap designer. The map was meant to have escape routes, but soon as you opened your self, you have to be careful. For vehicles, you have 5 shots. Valhalla Heavy has the least amount of vehicles. 1 warthog, 1 scorpion, 1 banshee, 2 mongi. Getting all 5? You need to be an amazing player, in which case, you deserve to murder those vehicles. Standoff Heavy has 1 banshee, 3-4 mongi, 2 hogs, 2 choppers. More than one laser charge. As for the Hitscan, ITS A FREAKIN LASER! HOW THE HELL WOULD IT NOT BE HIT SCAN!

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dreezy12 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Salazar14 Sir, Mr. Hylebos. How do you respond to the [i]leaked[/i] Halo: Reach photos which surfaced in November, 2009 which clearly depicted the Spartan Laser's return?[/quote] I usually snicker to myself, edit the counter on the third post, and hope that the next guy reads my entire essay :D [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkestFool Covenant Launcher is the Needle Rifle from what I can see, check pics if you've got a complaint.[/quote] Wait, are you trying to say that [url=http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/Hylebosaiden/Bnet%20Image%20Resources/CovenantLauncher.jpg]this weapon[/url] is the same as [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/images.aspx?c=53&i=24591]this weapon[/url]?[/quote] He's saying the weapon that shot the beam in the MP trailer looked a lot like the Needle Rifle. He may have confused "Launcher" with "Beam" Or maybe that's just what I'm getting from his post[/quote] If you look at the first link, the guy with the Covenant launcher also has a needler rifle on his back according to the top right of the image. Whatever it looked like, he seems to be mistaken.

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  • i cant see your meaning ver that wall and im too lazy to climb

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] KAIOKEN LOBSTER now im only a super nerd but heres my two cents. what made the laser cool was that it could scope, brought about the destruction of whatever it wanted to and the sound it made. the only way to balance it for reach would be to a. decrease the amount of shots it can fire b. make it a short range laser. as in the beam disspates after 15-25 ingame feet c. make it a heavy weapon, user is slower and aim is ruined. for example the laser could be like a mounted weapon. say mounted onto a stand with a cable running to it from a pelican or generator. after it is dismounted there could be a countdown to fire off the remaining 3 shots, or each shot takes two seconds longer than the previous to charge. then the weapon overheats and explodes. that keps the laser separate from any other weapon except the flamethrower. but then what to do with the smiteblower, right? mount it onto a vehicle. say a warthog variant for flood battles. think about it fire breathing, up close and personal, warthog of doom[/quote] A fire hog? That would be the most incredible sexy thing ever. I'm sad now because I know I'll probably never actually get to use the thing you just put into my head. I'll probably use it in my dreams though. ;-;

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Rockie117 Dude, In one of the leaked fotos you clearly see one person holding one Spartan Laser.... Stop you annoying complainging[/quote] i think the lazer will be back... what is gone is the fuel rod. and by gone i mean replaced

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  • Again.... Read the whole post!!!!! This is to all the damn people who keep saying. "Yea, well I saw the Splazer in a leaked screen shot!" [Edited on 03.12.2010 4:36 AM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mestizo X Any counter to my post on pg 14?[/quote] Come back tomorrow afternoon, it's nearly midnight right now, and I really can't put good effort into responding to good replies, and my list of posts to respond to is very long. I need a clear head to evaluate each one properly. I can message you when I reply if you wish.[/quote] Thanks, sounds good to me, see you then.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mestizo X Any counter to my post on pg 14?[/quote] Come back tomorrow afternoon, it's nearly midnight right now, and I really can't put good effort into responding to good replies, and my list of posts to respond to is very long. I need a clear head to evaluate each one properly. I can message you when I reply if you wish.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Salazar14 Sir, Mr. Hylebos. How do you respond to the [i]leaked[/i] Halo: Reach photos which surfaced in November, 2009 which clearly depicted the Spartan Laser's return?[/quote] I usually snicker to myself, edit the counter on the third post, and hope that the next guy reads my entire essay :D [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkestFool Covenant Launcher is the Needle Rifle from what I can see, check pics if you've got a complaint.[/quote] Wait, are you trying to say that [url=http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/Hylebosaiden/Bnet%20Image%20Resources/CovenantLauncher.jpg]this weapon[/url] is the same as [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/images.aspx?c=53&i=24591]this weapon[/url]?[/quote] He's saying the weapon that shot the beam in the MP trailer looked a lot like the Needle Rifle. He may have confused "Launcher" with "Beam" Or maybe that's just what I'm getting from his post

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Salazar14 Sir, Mr. Hylebos. How do you respond to the [i]leaked[/i] Halo: Reach photos which surfaced in November, 2009 which clearly depicted the Spartan Laser's return?[/quote] I usually snicker to myself, edit the counter on the third post, and hope that the next guy reads my entire essay :D [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkestFool Covenant Launcher is the Needle Rifle from what I can see, check pics if you've got a complaint.[/quote] Wait, are you trying to say that [url=http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/Hylebosaiden/Bnet%20Image%20Resources/CovenantLauncher.jpg]this weapon[/url] is the same as [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/images.aspx?c=53&i=24591]this weapon[/url]?[/quote] Any counter to my post on pg 14?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Salazar14 Sir, Mr. Hylebos. How do you respond to the [i]leaked[/i] Halo: Reach photos which surfaced in November, 2009 which clearly depicted the Spartan Laser's return?[/quote] I usually snicker to myself, edit the counter on the third post, and hope that the next guy reads my entire essay :D [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkestFool Covenant Launcher is the Needle Rifle from what I can see, check pics if you've got a complaint.[/quote] Wait, are you trying to say that [url=http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/Hylebosaiden/Bnet%20Image%20Resources/CovenantLauncher.jpg]this weapon[/url] is the same as [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/images.aspx?c=53&i=24591]this weapon[/url]?

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  • now im only a super nerd but heres my two cents. what made the laser cool was that it could scope, brought about the destruction of whatever it wanted to and the sound it made. the only way to balance it for reach would be to a. decrease the amount of shots it can fire b. make it a short range laser. as in the beam disspates after 15-25 ingame feet c. make it a heavy weapon, user is slower and aim is ruined. for example the laser could be like a mounted weapon. say mounted onto a stand with a cable running to it from a pelican or generator. after it is dismounted there could be a countdown to fire off the remaining 3 shots, or each shot takes two seconds longer than the previous to charge. then the weapon overheats and explodes. that keps the laser separate from any other weapon except the flamethrower. but then what to do with the smiteblower, right? mount it onto a vehicle. say a warthog variant for flood battles. think about it fire breathing, up close and personal, warthog of doom

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  • Covenant Launcher is the Needle Rifle from what I can see, check pics if you've got a complaint.

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  • Sir, Mr. Hylebos. How do you respond to the [i]leaked[/i] Halo: Reach photos which surfaced in November, 2009 which clearly depicted the Spartan Laser's return?

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  • Hylebos without the laser Vehicles will OWN in Reach. Laser was the only thing that could threaten a talented banshee pilot in valhalla. In valhalla if the banshee pilot was in communication with team mates so they knew were the laser person was then the laser could be even less of a threat. If anything the laser should be kept but used in non vehicle maps, much like construct and for the most part snowbound. It provide variety and fun to those maps and no one can complain they ruin vehicle game-play. If bungie really wants a new primary anti-vehicle weapon then all they have to do is not put them on maps with vehicles, end of story.

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  • Upon conclusion of reading your OP, I struggled between [quote][I]insightful, intelligent and well written[/I][/quote] and [quote][I]wow, why do I get the feeling this guy loves the sound of his own voice?[/I][/quote]

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  • lol at all the retards who didn't read the OP. Good thread Hylebos, the new weapon looks pretty awesome and it looks like it will take a bit of skill to use properly.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos . . . stay tuned.[/quote] It's weird. It's like I've heard this somewhere before.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Saiyan Overdrive well you wasted your time! there was already a screenshot in gameinformer with a spartan laser.[/quote] LOL FAIL Your count goes up by one! [Edited on 03.11.2010 10:10 PM PST]

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  • well you wasted your time! there was already a screenshot in gameinformer with a spartan laser.

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  • I read it all and the part about the laser makes sense. You kind of summed up my thoughts and more with all that. Personally, I hope it's not in Reach (or at least in it's current state) seeing as it makes being in vehicles, and destroying them, no fun. Nice post, Hyl.

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  • They could have just made the spartan laser fire a red hunter beam. Which would slow down the shot, giving the pilot time to dodge it. Also making the player lead their shots, which would make the weapon a lot harder to use but still effective against infantry/vehicles. Nice post BTW.

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  • The new sniper you are talking about. It's moar like a sential beam [Edited on 03.11.2010 9:28 PM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MADMAN Redux Hylebos is probably spot on with his OP. That said, I'm finding I fundamentally disagree with the approach I think Sage is taking with the sandbox. The odd thing I keep being reminded of about what Bungie seems to be doing with the sandbox and what many in this community seem so set on is that people [i]think[/i] to have a balanced sandbox, you need to ensure every weapon has a defined role and that there's no overlap for fear of redundancy. My take on that is not every multiplayer map needs to feature the full weapon sandbox of a game, and I think a game like Reach would benefit from a very diverse weapon sandbox.[/quote]GOW2 style. They don't include the same weapons on every map. Even then, every round has a different weapon set up on the map. i think it's pretty bad ass that they're able to switch it up like that, as well as give the player a taste of the GOW sandbox without having too many weapons on the map at 1 time. Would this work for Halo? No idea. But it was cool in GOW. [quote]In the OP, Hylebos brought up the point that, if the Spartan Laser were in Reach, it would make the Covenant launcher worthless. I entirely disagree. The reason is obvious: you wouldn't place them on the same map.[/quote]Was the missile pod ever 'useless' on Valhalla? No. If the enemy team had the laser, you still had your handy dandy missile pod in case an enemy hog came racing by to try and spawn trap you. PlasmaPistol from a friend stops the hog in its tracks, missile pod kicks the hogs butt! Thing of the same sort of scenario for the new covie weapon. Too bad the laser is out. [quote] IMO, having a diverse weapon sandbox with overlapping abilities, functions, and roles would enable level designers to really have a lot of choices with each weapon loadout on each level. For example, there's a debate about how the grenade launcher will perform and fear that it will be too much like the rocket launcher. There are obvious and inherent differences to each gun, but I see no need to tune them so that they are so differentiated that they can be squeezed onto the same map. In fact, I think that would be a terrible idea. What have we learned from a decade of playing Halo? Classes are definitely very much a part of this game. There are snipers. There are CQB weapons. There are heavy weapons. But how many maps in Halo 3 DON'T use the rocket launcher? Didn't that get a little boring? So in the case of the grenade launcher and the rocket launcher, as I said, there are innate differences that will affect performance, but I see no need to emphasize differentiation. Just put the rocket launcher on some maps to fill that heavy weapon role. On others, put the grenade launcher. This ensures a more varied experience, and then down the road, if a designer wants to change a loadout of a map for matchmaking purposes, he can swap out the heavy weapons to change the gameplay if only subtly. In the case of the laser, I think it would be great to have it as well as the Covenant launcher. Is the laser just oppressing the vehicles too much on a particular map? OK, use the Covey launcher. But this probably isn't what Sage is doing.[/quote]<3

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  • Hylebos is probably spot on with his OP. That said, I'm finding I fundamentally disagree with the approach I think Sage is taking with the sandbox. The odd thing I keep being reminded of about what Bungie seems to be doing with the sandbox and what many in this community seem so set on is that people [i]think[/i] to have a balanced sandbox, you need to ensure every weapon has a defined role and that there's no overlap for fear of redundancy. My take on that is not every multiplayer map needs to feature the full weapon sandbox of a game, and I think a game like Reach would benefit from a very diverse weapon sandbox. In the OP, Hylebos brought up the point that, if the Spartan Laser were in Reach, it would make the Covenant launcher worthless. I entirely disagree. The reason is obvious: you wouldn't place them on the same map. IMO, having a diverse weapon sandbox with overlapping abilities, functions, and roles would enable level designers to really have a lot of choices with each weapon loadout on each level. For example, there's a debate about how the grenade launcher will perform and fear that it will be too much like the rocket launcher. There are obvious and inherent differences to each gun, but I see no need to tune them so that they are so differentiated that they can be squeezed onto the same map. In fact, I think that would be a terrible idea. What have we learned from a decade of playing Halo? Classes are definitely very much a part of this game. There are snipers. There are CQB weapons. There are heavy weapons. But how many maps in Halo 3 DON'T use the rocket launcher? Didn't that get a little boring? So in the case of the grenade launcher and the rocket launcher, as I said, there are innate differences that will affect performance, but I see no need to emphasize differentiation. Just put the rocket launcher on some maps to fill that heavy weapon role. On others, put the grenade launcher. This ensures a more varied experience, and then down the road, if a designer wants to change a loadout of a map for matchmaking purposes, he can swap out the heavy weapons to change the gameplay if only subtly. In the case of the laser, I think it would be great to have it as well as the Covenant launcher. Is the laser just oppressing the vehicles too much on a particular map? OK, use the Covey launcher. But this probably isn't what Sage is doing.

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