Not my post, but you people need facts ;ere are some numbers for you all courtesy of DTR's community statistics Edit: I find it hilarious that people are attacking my personally for these stats. If any of you had half a brain and bothered to read you would realize these are NOT my stats. I also didn't realize this forum suddenly became somewhere that requires perfect statistical presentation. Super kills (PVP) Hunter Nightstalker 54,549,041 (4.90%) Titan Sunbreaker 30,933,744 (2.78%) Warlock Stormcaller 28,664,865 (2.58%) Grenade kills (PVP) Hunter Nightstalker 31,135,311 (4.11%) Warlock Stormcaller 26,611,954 (3.51%) Titan Sunbreaker 16,019,668 (2.11%) Melee kills (PVP) Warlock Stormcaller 38,775,697 (3.16%) Hunter Nightstalker 32,853,317 (2.68%) Titan Sunbreaker 29,285,716 (2.39%) Sooooooo. You were saying how sunbreakers get sooooooooo many kills with their overpowered hammers yet they still have less super kill then the hunter SUPPORT class. Edit 1. Class breakdown 33.5% warlock with 3% being stormcaller 32.3% titan with 3% being sunbreaker 34.2% hunter with 4% being nightstalker These are updated every 15 minutes by destiny tracker. I didn't collect these. The low percentage is because the subclass percentage is based upon what percentage of tracked games they have been in. Edit 2: actual numbers for classes for you Warlock 1,854,319 Titan 1,786,529 Hunter 1,890,494 source: http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population Edit 3: here are the stats for all subclasses. These have been updated so the numbers should be different from the ones above Super kills (PVP) Hunter Bladedancer 201,044,918 (18.06%) Hunter Gunslinger 199,808,670 (17.95%) Titan Striker 186,291,620 (16.73%) Warlock Sunsinger 152,393,823 (13.69%) Warlock Voidwalker 131,789,812 (11.84%) Titan Defender 124,945,236 (11.22%) Hunter Nightstalker 55,925,202 (5.02%) Titan Sunbreaker 31,783,917 (2.85%) Warlock Stormcaller 29,448,846 (2.64%) Grenades: Warlock Sunsinger 174,401,439 (22.98%) Hunter Bladedancer 121,434,967 (16.00%) Hunter Gunslinger 114,520,912 (15.09%) Warlock Voidwalker 108,105,902 (14.24%) Titan Striker 94,212,758 (12.41%) Titan Defender 70,645,856 (9.31%) Hunter Nightstalker 31,920,719 (4.21%) Warlock Stormcaller 27,326,515 (3.60%) Titan Sunbreaker 16,443,142 (2.17%) Melee: Warlock Sunsinger 284,839,168 (23.19%) Titan Striker 203,237,949 (16.55%) Warlock Voidwalker 177,393,092 (14.44%) Hunter Bladedancer 170,332,624 (13.87%) Titan Defender 153,350,640 (12.49%) Hunter Gunslinger 135,263,513 (11.01%) Warlock Stormcaller 39,855,529 (3.25%) Hunter Nightstalker 33,721,785 (2.75%) Titan Sunbreaker 30,104,721 (2.45%) Edit: [quote]Okay, it seems there's way to many people sticking to the argument, There are more Hunters than Warlocks/Titans therefore they're are going to have more kills. If you agree, then this is for you. These stats were derived from a sizable portion of the population using the most recent statistic. 5.54 million games played as a specific subclass total. Hunter 1,894,406 Warlock 1,858,093 Titan 1,790,357 4% of Titans' and Warlocks' tracked games were played as Sunbreakers and Stormcallers. 5% of the Hunters' tracked games were played as Nightstalkers. Those of you with even a little bit of background in math already start to see a problem here ;) We can conclude that: 92524 games were played as a Nightstalker 75619 games were played as a Stormcaller 71461 games were played as a Sunbreaker And now to put everything on an equal playing field. Super Kills Avg per: Nightstalker - 619 Sunbreaker - 474 Stormcaller - 419 Melee Kills Avg per: Stormcaller - 566 Sunbreaker - 448 Nightstalker - 375 Grenade Kill Avg per: Stormcaller - 387 Nightstalker - 354 Sunbreaker - 245 Total Kills Avg per: Stormcaller - 1372 Nightstalker - 1348 Sunbreaker - 1167 Hmm, would you look a that. Seems like it wouldn't matter if there was an equal amount of Hunters, Warlocks and Titans. Hunters and Warlocks would be neck and neck yet Titans would still come in dead last. I wonder how such an OP subclass ends up with the least amount of kill

I don't care about total pop stats, The only real indicator is raw % per-player with that given subclass. What you're presenting is average % per class and not an individual basis and thus skews the numbers by the total and due to the part where Titans always have the lower end of the population statistics this system isn't accurate. [quote]Class breakdown proves the point that your argument holds the inconsistency of population. Titans always have the lower population, cumulative kills by that initial gap increases as time continues by the rate of kills based on that initial gap. The average per-individual is what you need to look at.[/quote]-My response to the same thread. However, we do not access to real per-player data on their individual kills per-game, K/D, and other relevant stats within a reasonable scope to accurately make a real statement on that matter outside of Bungie User Research making a post saying Sunbreakers have an average K/D of 1.08, we don't know the averages for the other subclasses obviously and he did not post them.

I see your point on how percent per player could be different, but as we dont have means to that data, we are left with this. This data is a good indicator of what super is getting the most kills. Is there any data you have obtained to disprove this?

No, but I do know that by your data Shadow shot is getting right about 50% extra kills over the other two when the others are made to actually kill other players in spades where as the Tether has an option to allow three shots in a [i]very[/i] limited period of time which is fine as an option that isn't always used by every player. That said if we were to gauge that than both Stormcaller and Sunbreaker are utter failures that should only be used in Crucible for fun despite filling in the same slayer roles as Bladedancer and Gunslinger with remarkable efficiency that cannot be denied just by looking at small sample gameplay.

You do know that in regs any year 1 37 impact will work, right?

You do realize year one 37 impact snipers won't work in ToO and IB right? :)

You do realize I said REGS and neither of those will be around for a while

the 4 being erine, spear, black hammer, black spindle. erine is currently available till wensday next week. and people have had 2 oppertunity's for spindle. the other 2 while year 1 snipers are still plenty viable in standard pvp. which is what most people play 90% of the time anyway. Blade dancer has always been sub par compared to everything else. the sun breaker didn't cause this. And i've already spoken my mind about the rest of your comments. Feel free to read my other replies. But if you don't feel like it i'll summerize. "I understand hammer of sol compared to other supers has many more advantages going for it and agree that it's strong. However considering the whole class is designed around making hammer of sol good and hammer of sol on it's own is pretty sub optimal I find the current position it's in to be alright." Also Golden gun always out shines it. you can one shot everyone but titans and only when they are mid super. And it's hit scan. so the golden guns optimal range far extends whatever hammer of sols will ever be.

The Spear isn't available anymore and the Hammer is behind a currently "done for fun" raid with RNG in the mix. Hence the "currently available" bit. Incendiary Grenades, one-hit capable (thanks to the buff they got) with all the advantages of burn procs and indirect engagement opportunities. If you haven't tried them out yet I highly recommend doing so. Was glad to see them brought over from the Gunslinger kit. And they have Fusions too. And, while many of the perk options enhance the Super the same (though not to the same extent) could be said for GG. Replace Scavenger for Simmering Flames and Gambler's Dagger for the first part of Fire Keeper alone. Then there are only two nodes unaccounted for and thus the "(though not to the same extent)". We can one-shot many things excluding Radiant Skin Armor 'Locks (fine), certain Void 'Lock builds, Unstoppable Strikers, and (my personal favorite) WoD which takes two hits which noticeably reduces the potential net-points for that use. All fine, However, while it is hitscan the damage dropoff comes at an incredibly short range and one-shots at anything considered too far for a Sidearm is a good bet to not be a one-hit, they've also been hit by the accuracy hits HandCs have acquired on top of that which is fine. A Golden Gun it may be but it's still an incredibly short barrel. However, Titans do in-fact have the capacity to get those same kill feeds as a Gunslinger and then some. Same strategy to avoid too, just hear the loud activation cue and run like hell.

I'm sure many players still have the spear and or hammer. I certainly do. And even if they don't they still have 2 other snipers. which as I had mention are openly available. So there is no reason a person who mains snipers shouldn't have 1 of the 4. My point being the class is geared around using your super. their are perks with gunslinger that add to how often you can use GG and a few other things. But none of it is needed or plays a huge impact on the super like how things are with hammer of sol. Unless you can provide video footage of not being able to one shot a normal non super player I have to call that false. I know golden gun was effected. But as far as i've seen it's range penalty for damage drop off hasn't impacted how it plays in pvp. Even if that's the case it's probably only at extreme ranges. in which the hammer would struggle hitting anyway.

Most who main a Sniper won't use these for the opportunity to one crit a Sunbreaker over a 31 model that is more efficient in every other regard right up to one-critting Bladedancers and self-rez 'Locks while still one-criting rezzed players. They may with the Eirene but that's still assuming it does one-crit a Sunbreaker. The latter is my point. For non-Super active players the non-one-shot range is about from one side to the other on Pantheon mid (where you're lucky to land the shot in the first place). In-super it's roughly from one side of Pantheon back to the waterfall given it's not a Golden Gun. At those ranges HoS isn't very reliable either.

erine will one shot a sun breaker.

Impact scaling by the points are inconsistent. On one hand you lose 20% of your damage by dropping from 22 to 16 Impact, but you only lose 6% from dropping from a 16 to a 13, but back up to 8% going from 13 Impact to 10. Going from 31 to 34 and assuming it'll one crit by that indicator isn't anything you should assume as the 31 class survives due to the damage resistance cutting the shot down to 188 to the Sunbreaker out of the 192 health they cap out at without Solar armor bonuses and the like from the 417 that class typically sees from a crit. Assuming the same math applies the shot's reduced by 2.21x that of the initial damage. Applying that to Black Hammer and allegedly the damage is 198.15. Four points over, four points under 192 without Armor increases from chest plates. Couple that with the erratic scaling of Impact and it's all speculation. And that's without mentioning it could be bugged like [armory]Red Spectre[/armory] which currently lies about it's Impact stat and does the same damage per-shot as a [armory]Righteous VII[/armory].

impact scaling..you lost me. care to make that a bit simpler for me to understand?

Basically the damage per-shot going from each individual step between Impact ratios results in all sorts of crazy haphazard steps across the board. Going from a [armory]1000 Yard Stare[/armory] to Patience you lose a whopping 20% but only 6% going from [armory]Patience and Time[/armory] to something like [armory]Eye of Sol[/armory]. With that in-mind the Impact stat itself is very inaccurate outside of "You deal more damage" the % is completely up for grabs. But, we do know that a Sunbreaker in-super takes 188 damage from a 1KYS crit, and I assume that since the normal number that Sniper deals is 417 that the damage resistance on a Sunbreaker is 2.21x that of the initial damage recieved. Applying that to Black Hammer and allegedly the damage sits at 198.15 per-crit out of the Titan's 192 max Armor spec without increased tankyness from "Increased Armor when using a Solar sublcass"-like chestplate perks. In this sense, we know that these two Snipers sit at either four damage points below and under the 192 health a max armor Titan. Eriene looks like it might do that, but with Impact the way it is it's impossible to say for sure as it may deal anywhere between 5-20% more damage than an LDR-like, assuming the Impact isn't bugged like the [armory]Red Spectre[/armory]

Still sounds a bit confusing. But I think I understand. all I know is in the optimal range before damage drop off the erine 004 will one shot a titan with out that chest piece. there is literally no health left when a 31 impact hits me in that situation. I'm thinking it might do the same when the chest piece is taken into account. But no proof to back that up.