I never thought of that but I guess that's true, but I think the point is, which came first, an egg laid by a pre-chicken that hatched into a chicken, or a chicken that hatched from a pre-chicken egg? I guess it doesn't really matter since things change gradually ... deep thoughts! But, what I mean in this case is: - guy likes girl - guy tries to be girl's friend rather than risk asking her out - guy later wishes he could ask her out but feels he's been put "in the friend zone" due to bad tactics on his part From the girl's point of view, this is what it looks like: - me and a guy are friends - the guy is getting weird on me, what's going on?! So is the guy in a friend zone he can never get out of because he made the mistake of being friends, or can the guy not go from friend to boyfriend because she was never attracted to him to begin with? I don't think it's easy to answer! And the reason is because how guys act toward us is probably the #1 reason we are or are not attracted to him, one of the main reasons anyway. Confidence is a big reason and pretending to be friends when you really want to go out does not speak highly of confidence! I know what I am trying to say but not how to say it. I guess the point is, maybe the guy deserves to be in the friend zone because he wasn't confident enough to just ask the girl out to begin with?? In the long run it doesn't do anybody any good, the friendship won't last once you start getting weird about things.