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3/11/2015 4:56:06 PM
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Congrats, you bought your way to 31. GG no re.
I'd rather see a level 30 with full VoG gear than a 31 who just grinded away.
Plus VoG gear looks [u]sweet[/u].
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Crotas can be solod how is that earnt ? It's just a harder strike..
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Requiring raids to progress would end the game for millions of players. People who say that Vanguard gear shouldn't get people to level 33 after HoW are out of touch. Most are fine with the best rewards being in the highest difficulty raids, but there should still be other avenues to progress.
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Edited by DaoFerret: 3/11/2015 5:56:31 PMMy bet, based on comments from Bungie, is that post HoW vendor gear will get you to 32, but you'll need raid gear to get to 34. This would leave CE Raid gear as relevant, and allow new players (or those who are missing a piece of CE gear) to level up to 32 to tackle the new raid on Normal mode (as a 32). Get two pieces of raid gear leveled up (or 1 piece and a fully leveled exotic) and you're a 33 (or 3-4 pieces partially leveled ... you do the math). Purely a guess, but its based on Bungie's comment about not wanting to make raid gear immediately useless like they did with VoG (and experienced a backlash from).
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Edited by R merc G: 3/11/2015 5:59:53 PMThat makes sense. The key is that vendor gear will move to Radiant materials (that's what makes sense from a design perspective). Here's a copy of what I wrote in another post: [i]Here's what I see happening in HoW: dailies, public event and other activities begin rewarding Radiant materials. Vanguard/Crucible/Faction rewards now need Radiant materials. Crota remains relevant for farming materials, thus maintaining the secondary economy for gearing up for endgame (either raids or IB). It's up to Bungie if they want to retrofit VoG for level 32, and arguments can be made either way.[/i]
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Alternatively, Radiant materials are removed and convert into ascendant materials (or vice versa). (or some conversion factor needs to be available to convert ascendant to radiant or you've just hosed the community that has Ascendant as well as invalidated anything in VoG besides the Gorgon chest and Atheon for exotic drops).
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On second thought, you may be right. The bigger question is what happens to people without either expansion when HoW drops? If they abandon Ascendent materials in favor of Radiant, people may be "forced" to buy CE to progress. While I do, on one hand, see new copies of Destiny eventually including DLC, they may not do that and instead retrofit Crota's End to drop Ascendent materials.
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Yeah, I see some kind of Ascendent - Radiant conversion. It all hinges (in my mind) on if VoG is somehow retrofitted. That may or may not be plausible. If VoG is abandoned there will still be a secondary economy of Radiant materials from vendor gear and Crota's End. How they decide to keep CE gear relevant is just "micro" design that's part of the "macro" approach to expansion progression design. It's common in MMOs for raids to be deprecated as expansions march on. When The Burning Crusade launched, it invalidated all 4 endgame raids from level 60 World of Warcraft. By the time players got done leveling to 70, they had quest gear that rivaled the hardest level 60 raid gear. Did dedicated players who mastered the level 60 raids like that? No. I've heard all the same arguments before "people should need to clear this raid to level beyond 60. New players won't have raid experience when hitting level 70, Blizzard invalidated all my hard work from the past two years..." In the end, it was better for the game to hit a "reset" button because it revitalized the community. I assure you that Bungie is just as concerned with the experience a new player will have leveling to end game, and a daunting "you need to clear all the old raids to progress" simply won't happen.
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Agreed. I don't see Bungie requiring previous raids in order to progress, but they also want to strike a balance between keeping the older players happy and giving the new ones access. Also, I don't know WoW so I'm not familiar with the timeframes for when 60 came out and when 70 came out, but remember that when HoW comes out, we're talking the second "reset" since launch ... anywhere from 7-9 months before. With another reset expected in September ... 3-5 months after HoW. That many resets in so short a time frame is enough to make anyone who has invested a fair amount of time question the decision (depending on how it is handled).
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Also, in WoW you saw the same pattern with progression raid guilds that you see in Destiny with hardcore players. Say a raid came out in September, those progression guilds would raid full-tilt 36 hour weeks until the content was mastered (only took a few weeks). Then they would scale back to "farming mode" and get everyone geared (less strenuous) then either take a break, gear alts, etc. So within 3 months those guilds were kind of like people in Destiny who have everything done and are waiting on HoW.
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Yes, in World of Warcraft the time between expansions was much farther, but the scale was quite different as well. For example, it could take [i]several months[/i] to get a 40 man raid group fully geared where people in Destiny are able to get three characters geared within one month. In later WoW expansions, there were similar strides taken when a new tier of content was released. For example, when a new raid came out, the reputation vendor system started awarding higher level rewards. Like with Destiny, those rewards were always a tier behind the highest raid, but it gave newer players a faster way to catch up without needing to farm old raids for months. Destiny adds another dimension with character level tied to gear level, but the design behind progression is the same.
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[quote]Requiring raids to progress would end the game for millions of players. People who say that Vanguard gear shouldn't get people to level 33 after HoW are out of touch. Most are fine with the best rewards being in the highest difficulty raids, but there should still be other avenues to progress.[/quote] There's just nothing... [i]impressive[/i], I guess, about doing the same strikes 500 times to get all your vendor gear. At least raids require a certain amount of finesse.
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Edited by Stinkoman_K: 3/11/2015 6:09:01 PMThe only impressive part are the ones that put up with all the hm glitches. ...sword disappeared... Wipe! You can get 32 on nm Crota and that isn't impressive at all and takes less time. 3 pieces in two weeks easy(easier with 3 same toons) 201+ vanguard marks also requires two weeks and more time. Heck IB gear is more impressive.
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Nothing impressive about raids. Unless u solo? You're trying to hard to impress ppl.
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[quote]Nothing impressive about raids. Unless u solo? You're trying to hard to impress ppl.[/quote] OP seemed to imply there was some significance in getting beyond 29 without raiding. All I said was it's much more significant to get there via raiding than general grinding.
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what? OP here and that was not my intention. I simply picked level 29 because, well, if you're a person who intends to try a raid, level 29+ is usually about the point where you actually make an attempt. Technically, I could've said level 26, but lets be honest, you can't ATTEMPT a raid at 26, you can get CARRIED through a raid at 26. No comments whatsoever were made by me regarding grinding, or its significance either positive or negative.
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[quote]what? OP here and that was not my intention. I simply picked level 29 because, well, if you're a person who intends to try a raid, level 29+ is usually about the point where you actually make an attempt. Technically, I could've said level 26, but lets be honest, you can't ATTEMPT a raid at 26, you can get CARRIED through a raid at 26. No comments whatsoever were made by me regarding grinding, or its significance either positive or negative.[/quote] You don't need to be a ridiculously high level to do Vault of Glass.
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That's true. But to be useful you still kinda need to be 28 or so. For most people, anyways. Especially in VoG, which has a much steeper learning curve. You'll probably have a pretty poor experience in VoG if you're A) new to the raid, and B) that low of a level. Not disagreeing, just explaining why I chose 29.
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Edited by Demon By Desire: 3/11/2015 9:23:52 PM[quote]That's true. But to be useful you still kinda need to be 28 or so. For most people, anyways. Especially in VoG, which has a much steeper learning curve. You'll probably have a pretty poor experience in VoG if you're A) new to the raid, and B) that low of a level. Not disagreeing, just explaining why I chose 29.[/quote] I've done VoG as a 26 before, but I'm not sure what level I was my first time. Probably 26 or 27. And having done it as a 26 with experience, I can say I didn't notice a dramatic difference.
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Fair enough. But if that is in fact the truth, I'd go so far as to give you the compliment of being an excellent gamer. Either way, though, I'm sticking with my original choice of level 29 for this thread.
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[quote]Fair enough. But if that is in fact the truth, I'd go so far as to give you the compliment of being an excellent gamer. Either way, though, I'm sticking with my original choice of level 29 for this thread.[/quote] [quote]Fair enough.[/quote]
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I misunderstood. My bad. I thought you were bashing
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And players who just do strikes will be "forever 33." I see Vanguard/Crucible/Faction rewards needing Radiant materials post-HoW, so Crota's End will remain relevant for efficiently farming those materials.
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But that would leave the new players without prior raid experience. VoG is a great learning area for new raiders cause it's simple. They get the chance to understand they need to hold their own. And if you bump the new vanguard gear up to level 33 that would leave VoG completely useless as well as Crota. Bungie would basically remove entire parts of the game.
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Edited by R merc G: 3/11/2015 5:52:42 PMThat's true, but with a newer raid and higher level cap, Crota will become the "training ground." What you're proposing doesn't make sense in the future. What about when the level cap is 40? Having such a steep climb by forcing players to do VoG, Crota, HoW, etc to progress is nonsense. It would fragment the community far too much. Better for one tier behind to remain relevant. Here's what I see happening in HoW: dailies, public event and other activities begin rewarding Radiant materials. Vanguard/Crucible/Faction rewards now need Radiant materials. Crota remains relevant for farming materials, creating a secondary economy for gearing up to endgame. It's up to Bungie if they want to retrofit VoG for level 32, and arguments can be made either way. Every MMO goes through expansion growing pains like this. After The Burning Crusade came out, all of the level 60 raids in World of Warcraft collected dust because they were deprecated by the new content.
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The account has not been played...
