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8/18/2008 10:37:50 PM
450
Blood Gulch =/= Valhalla and =/= Standoff.
As a person who loves Blood Gulch, I'm not a fan of people incorrectly saying Valhalla or even Standoff replaces it. So I hope to end this argument with a very long post.
WARNING!
Not for those with short attention spans!
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Valhalla completely defies the themes of Blood Gulch, which automatically means it isn't the same thing. No matter how many things [i] look[/i] similar (i.e. the pelican on Valhalla as a cave or the river on Valhalla), a map can't replace another if the game play is nothing like it.
Some people may not have noticed, but Valhalla has a hill in the middle of it. This blocks the views of one base to most of the other. In Blood Gulch, base to base snipers battles weren't exactly rare. This is because it was a level plain, where a sniper could shoot anyone almost anywhere on the map. Due to the hill, snipers are not the most dominant force on Valhalla usually. One theme of Blood Gulch destroyed.
The next theme of Blood Gulch is vehicles. Valhalla has vehicles. So does Blood Gulch. I don't think Valhalla has any tanks though. Or ghosts [i]normally[/i]. Odd for a remake, huh? Not to have any of the things that actually made the map awesome.
To vehicles again...there is also, again, the hill. The hill means that vehicular battles will never happen on a regular basis in MM. On Blood Gulch you just had plain open ground. Drive in circles hoping your gunner can outdo theirs, while dodging the sniper. The hill makes it so Warthogs rarely encounter one another.
Mancannons are on Valhalla, teleporters in Blood Gulch. I know, 'they're the same thing practically!' Wrong sir! On this map, they are not. A mancannon on Blood Gulch would be devastating to the map, for any decent sniper could have a field day. Blood Gulch had teleporters due to the risk of going to the middle of the map with snipers on either side. This, again, is defeated by Valhalla's large hill.
On Valhalla you can just mancannon to the middle of the map in relative safety, or even walk! This is, yet again, due to the large hill in the middle. On Blood Gulch, if you went near the middle of the map on foot, a sniper would likely pick you off. You can go an entire game easily on Valhalla without Vehicles or Snipers. If you tried that on Blood Gulch, you'd get laughed at and killed many times.
Standoff has many of the same issues. Where to begin?
Standoff ishow shall I put this [b]small[/b]. Blood Gulch was huge, and Standoff is not. The largeness of Blood Gulch is one of its best features. Both maps have a base. Oh, that must mean the maps the same! Standoff replaces Blood Gulch, just like Valhalla does (by the way, if both maps replace Blood Gulch, then you'd better start explaining how Standoff is the same as Valhalla), huh? Right
Standoff has a single Warthog in front of each base. Blood Gulch has a warthog by each base as well. Blood Gulch also had a banshee, a ghost, and tank. Standoff also hasoh, never mind. Standoff has mongooses. I have little doubt that if Blood Gulch is ever going to be remade in Halo 3, that mongooses would be included. So there you go. Still, one theme of Blood Gulch is destroyed.
Blood Gulch has tiny bumps that bounce you up and down while you drive in your hog. Standoff has rocks that you can crash into. Very similar, I know.
Really though, the rocks also ruin the Blood Gulch experience. I don't even need to explain that part I don't think. To me, it is far too obvious.
Standoff lacks the one weapon Blood Gulch centered aroundthe sniper. Standoff does not have a sniper, and I think it was a very good move by Bungie not to include it. In a map like Standoff, the sniper would dominate, and I mean more than in Blood Gulch. In blood gulch, you have a tank. Not only can you pick up chicks in a tank, but you can kill a sniper. Yay multi tasking!
At last, some smaller points:
1. Valhalla was a spiritual successor. It was not supposed to be Blood Gulch. It was inspired by Blood Gulch.
2. There is a difference between thinking a map is good, and thinking it is not like another map. Standoff happens to be my current favorite Halo 3 map. Valhalla is a fun map as well, though I wouldn't say it was one of my favorites.
3. When Standoff was first shown, I believe the words Bungie used were 'it has a Blood Gulch feel'. Something to that effect... it doesn't mean it can replace Blood Gulch at all! All it means is that it has the same [i]feel [/i] as Blood Gulch. Bungie certainly got that right; it does remind me of it. Maybe that's why I love the map so much. Or it could be that Multi- Flag on Standoff with AR starts is epic fun!
4. Themes can be argued. Maybe some of you don't think the themes of Blood Gulch are snipers and/or vehicles. However, I firmly believe that these are the themes, and I believe most people would agree with me, whether they think Valhalla/Standoff can replace Blood Gulch or not.
5. I am well aware of the 'Bring Back Blood Gulch' group. I support the cause, but I just don't want to join more groups. Sorry fellas, but my support will be from the outside. Good group theme though, it's a good thing.
There you have it, the reasons Valhalla and Standoff do not equal Blood Gulch. Please bring fire extinguishers for the flames when you enter the 'reply' screen, if you do reply.
Thanks for reading.
[quote] Quote due to it looking nicer than a 'edit' symbol. I've been desperately trying to avoided editing this post, because I feel the edit thing makes such a lovely post look sloppy. It couldn't be helped though. Turns out that with the New New Hawtness, it was impossible to reply to this thread due to the title I had. So I had to change the title. Apologies to anybody who tried- you should now have no trouble.[/quote]
[Edited on 03.26.2009 6:23 PM PDT]
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I enjoyed gameplay more on Valhalla than Blood Gulch.
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I'm going to sig this.
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We don't need another goddamn remake. And your second point, on Base2Base snipers makes it sound like a bad thing. I don't want to be able to snipe someone from my base. The hill in Valhalla is for balance. Oh, and I know a spot on Valhalla that allows you to snipe the other teams sniper in his base. I can show you it, if you want.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GeneralMykus with Valhalla and Standoff being [i]similar[/i] (not the same, by any strecth of the imagination) I fear that a Blood Gulch remake would make too many of the maps feel "samey". Which is why I'm not holding my breath for a remake.[/quote] SImilar...hmm. Well that's not something I can argue about. Similar depends on the person talking. Depends on what you consider similar. And there's absolutely no way to argue if you feel the maps would be too much 'samey'. That's a personal opinion. I respect your opinion, but I heartily disagree.[/quote]In hindsight, I would like to retract my previous statement. I've given this a lot of thought, and I find myself agreeing more and more, as I think about it. Yes, the maps will look similar, be laid out similar, but then, what maps aren't? Sandtrap has a base (Elephant) at either end, vehicle routes around the outside and cutting across the middle. Snowbound has 2 bases, room for a ghost around the outside, and undulations about the middle. Isolation has 2 bases, a hill in the middle, and room for a sniper on the side. I could go on. What makes these maps varied is the fact that they all play differently, despite all having similar aspects with regards to layout. I no longer believe that they would be "samey". You changed my mind. Kudos to you.
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Valhalla>Bloodgulch>Standoff There we go. And YES Valhalla IS replacing Blood Gulch, as a "Spiritual Successor" [Edited on 08.20.2008 9:02 AM PDT]
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YES i don't have the heroic so i don't know standoff but i do know tht thy tried to replicate or inspire Valhalla from blood gulch but i would really likke it if thy put it up for dl, don't need any changes from halo2 just use that map it was one of the most used maps in halo2 and 1!!!!!! cl 0 UU |\/ |_ 0 A |) Blood gulch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! may fav map
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] kalle90 You say no one can argue about opinions, that's true, so why you made this thread? Fact is that the maps are not same, even BG and Coag aren't, but some people think the differences are meaningless. If it would be 100% extra map, no one would argue except for the principle. If it would delay the next Bungie game for 10 years, few would support it.[/quote] Quite a few people don't post their opinions when talking about this map though. A good chunk of them state that Valhalla and/or Standoff replaces/is Blood Gulch as if it were a fact. I'm showing that it is not a fact. An opinion would be 'I think we have too many maps similar to Blood Gulch' or 'I don't think we need it', or 'I didn't like the map'. However, when people state that some maps are the same when they clearly aren't, it kinda bugs me. The differences between Blood Gulch and Coag were, as far as I can tell, mostly the bases, a vehicle or two, and things that just look different. As I've said though, Bungie intended Coagulation to be a remake. Not a Spiritual Successor, but a remake. You can state more things similar to the two maps than are different. Msot importantly, the maps play the same. One of my main points of how Valhalla and Standoff were different was because they don't play the same. It doesn't matter if maps look remotely similar, as long as they play the same. As I've said, I'm not trying to get Blood Gulch back with this thread. I would like it back, but I'm not trying that with this thread. I wouldn't have wanted it either if it delayed the game for 10 years. Even without Blood Gulch, Halo 3 is still an amazing game. My favorite game on the 360. One thing is though...thankfully, it doesn't take 10 years to design a single map, hah. Lucky for us huh?
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Fair enough, it's all my opinion, which means I say anything that supports it. Priorities are different. I want Prisoner, or nearly any other map, more than Blood Gulch, big reason is that I feel we have some sort of Blood Gulches already. You say no one can argue about opinions, that's true, so why you made this thread? Fact is that the maps are not same, even BG and Coag aren't, but some people think the differences are meaningless. If it would be 100% extra map, no one would argue except for the principle. If it would delay the next Bungie game for 10 years, few would support it.
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For those who complain about the sniper dominance, don't forget that Halo 2 has immense auto-aim on the sniper. Halo 3 doesn't have so much, more like Halo CE. So, as I can imagine, the only spots a sniper can easily dominate is your team's half of the map, which you are bound to probably get killed on anyway, seeing that most of your support is behind you.
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That is EXACTLY what I've been saying. Only not as well written. It's very obvious that no maps are BG remakes. It really comes down to would you WANT a BG remake. And for nearly everyone, the answer is yes. i don't know why it wasn't included in the release of the game. I was very surprised.
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bring back blood gultch
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] kalle90 Some people don't even agree that Blood Gulch and Coagulation are alike, what can you say for them, that they should play the game they like more? [/quote] I'd like to address this first, though it was posted last. Bungie intended that and stated that it was a remake of Blood Gulch with updates for Halo 2, such as weapon placements and grav lifts and all that good stuff. Bungie has never stated or, as far as I know, even implied that Valhalla or Standoff are the same as Blood Gulch. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] kalle90 I'm fairly no one is actually against having Blood Gulch added in Halo3. If it would be 100% extra who cares, you have it but you don't have to play it.[/quote] I've seen people against it. People who just want new maps. That's fine, that's their choice. Again, it is not my goal to try and bring Blood Gulch back with this thread, simply to point out differences between it and other maps commonly said to replace it.[quote] Thing in it, for me and surely many others, is that Blood Gulch would most probably take time and place of some other map or feature. Valhalla or Standoff might not be Blood Gulch, but what map is like Wizard, Hang Em High, Boarding Action, Headlong...? Don't forget the brand new map ideas either.[/quote] I'm sorry, I don't really understand. Are you saying that it would take time and maybe stop other maps from coming back so soon? If so, then yes, you're right. Then again, AU2 is probably delaying their big project(maybe, I don't know), making new maps delays everything else. Doing one thing almost always means delaying another.[quote] Relativeness. Valhalla does the same job Blood Gulch and Coagulation did, atleast a lot more than any map does the job of nearly any other map. [/quote] Other than actual remakes of course, such as Cold Storage and Last Resort. At the very least, nobody can deny that actual remakes 'replace' the originals better than spiritual successors.[quote] It already feels that Halo3 maps are "too" similiar, forget textures. [/quote] Again, that is your opinion about how you feel of the maps. I respect that, but I disagree. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RealUnrealRob The ability to snipe across the whole map was probably the exact reason they [i]didn't[/i] include the map.[/quote] Hehe, I dunno. Maybe it was the fact that I constantly [i]got[/i] sniped. I have no skill with the sniper :0
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Your right they don't replace BG atall we need to get BG back
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CO-AGG!
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The ability to snipe across the whole map was probably the exact reason they [i]didn't[/i] include the map.
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No, no, no. That is a lot of text. I'm fairly no one is actually against having Blood Gulch added in Halo3. If it would be 100% extra who cares, you have it but you don't have to play it. Thing in it, for me and surely many others, is that Blood Gulch would most probably take time and place of some other map or feature. Valhalla or Standoff might not be Blood Gulch, but what map is like Wizard, Hang Em High, Boarding Action, Headlong...? Don't forget the brand new map ideas either. Relativeness. Valhalla does the same job Blood Gulch and Coagulation did, atleast a lot more than any map does the job of nearly any other map. Some people don't even agree that Blood Gulch and Coagulation are alike, what can you say for them, that they should play the game they like more? It already feels that Halo3 maps are "too" similiar, forget textures. [Edited on 08.20.2008 8:23 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cpt SLAUGHTER7 You do realize that if BG was remade into H3 that there would most likely not be teleporters and instead be two mancannons that land where the teleporters took you. Bungie stated in a vidoc with valhalla in it that they made the mancannons to make the game more dangerous because being able to go halfway across a map with no danger like the teleporter did was boring. So right there ruins BG. [/quote] You're right, mancannons would ruin Blood Gulch. Because you can block teleporters now, I think Bungie was...relutant to add teleporters. However, they have been adding them recently. Cold Storage and Avalanche are examples. They seem to work well also. If it was ever brought back(which again, is not the point of this thread to try and get it), it would need teleporters. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] frogpjb How would Blood Gulch work in HALO 3!?!? The sniper is a practically a hitscan weapon, so spawning would become the worst part of the map. [/quote] Practically? Ah, the thing is, it is not a hitscan weapon. It can take 2-3 frames for the bullet to arrive, and all that otehr good stuff you can find out about in the update about the BR(linked in the BR sticky). The laser is the closest thing to a hitscan weapon we have in H3. As for how it would work...it would work excellently. [quote]The br would tear people apart when they are out in the open, and if you had ghosts and tanks, well, I think we all can imagine some scenarios.[/quote] The BR, ah yes. As anyone who knows me can tell you, I am an AR lover. I was crushed when it wasn't in Halo 2. In Halo 2, the BR seemed overpowered, even in Blood Gulch to me. However, due to the spread and its initial range, I think BR starts would work well, and the BR would in general in this map. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TDSpiral94 I trust this thread is a response to someone else's thread, huh?[/quote] This thread is in response to every thread and every post I've ever seen people make about how Standoff or Valhalla are the same as or can replace Blood Gulch. This was made because of nobody in particular. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] GeneralMykus with Valhalla and Standoff being [i]similar[/i] (not the same, by any strecth of the imagination) I fear that a Blood Gulch remake would make too many of the maps feel "samey". Which is why I'm not holding my breath for a remake.[/quote] SImilar...hmm. Well that's not something I can argue about. Similar depends on the person talking. Depends on what you consider similar. And there's absolutely no way to argue if you feel the maps would be too much 'samey'. That's a personal opinion. I respect your opinion, but I heartily disagree. [Edited on 08.20.2008 8:22 AM PDT]
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Blood Gulch virtually defined Halo for me, I think all my top 10 multiplayer experiences have occurred on Blood Gulch/Coagulation. I was alos gutted that it was put into Halo 3. Now, however, with Valhalla and Standoff being [i]similar[/i] (not the same, by any strecth of the imagination) I fear that a Blood Gulch remake would make too many of the maps feel "samey". Which is why I'm not holding my breath for a remake.
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I think you are talking about leading for lag which is not really necessary in halo 3 because of the netcode.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] frogpjb Yes, you make many very good points here. However, step back from your raging fanboy thoughts for a minute and take a second to think about this. How would Blood Gulch work in HALO 3!?!? The sniper is a practically a hitscan weapon, so spawning would become the worst part of the map. The br would tear people apart when they are out in the open, and if you had ghosts and tanks, well, I think we all can imagine some scenarios.[/quote] No, the sniper and the BR were much more powerful in Halo 2. The Halo 2 BR was hitscan and very effective at range the Halo 3 BR is not and the bullet spread makes it much less effective at long range, it is practically useless on sandtrap. I would assume the halo 2 sniper was hitscan as well considering the BR however the halo 3 sniper is actually an extremely fast projectile and is harder to aim.
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I love those big vehicles battle, but Valhalla has way too much things in the way for that, same with Standoff. The only map I can have big vehicles battle on are Rat's Nest and Sandtrap, and those are nothing like Blood Gulch. (I trust this thread is a response to someone else's thread, huh?)
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LordoftheGrunts How is the Sniper a hit scan weapon?[/quote] In Halo, you had to track your opponents and aim very far ahead of them, making sniping far more difficult (I'm speaking from playing multiplayer on Halo PC). The sniper in Halo 3 needs no tracking at all, you just point and shoot and you'll hit wherever your aiming at. This means that if Blood Gulch was remade, there would be a ton of spawn killing because snipers spawn at bases and bases can see each other.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pyromaniac 2090 QFT! (THC FTW!)[/quote] You mean OTK ftw :D great thread burrito/FOLP better than your run anyway... [Edited on 08.20.2008 8:00 AM PDT]
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Ye Blood Gulch was a great map, I would much prefer it to Sandtrap which is just too big.
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QFT! (THC FTW!)
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] frogpjb Yes, you make many very good points here. However, step back from your raging fanboy thoughts for a minute and take a second to think about this. How would Blood Gulch work in HALO 3!?!? The sniper is a practically a hitscan weapon, so spawning would become the worst part of the map. The br would tear people apart when they are out in the open, and if you had ghosts and tanks, well, I think we all can imagine some scenarios.[/quote] have you NEVER played halo 1 with a bunch of people, or halo 2 BTB for that matter? there are no big problems with this because BG/Coag is BIG and OPEN. the only weapon that can dominate the map is the sniper, and even then you cant shoot completely across the map and score headshots 100% of the time. seriously, play it before you start "imagining" scenarios. and the halo 2 BR has pinpoint accuracy and is instant hit at its maximum range, so... dont even get me started on the Halo 1 pistol, and it was still fun... [Edited on 08.20.2008 7:59 AM PDT]
