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4/2/2009 5:17:14 AM
240
Are the moderators more tolerant of the misbehavior of highly ranked member
So, i have recently come out of hiding. Mainly, due to boredom. I have not posted terribly much. However, a friend of mine mentioned me today that I should be banned because he thinks that all of my posts since my re-emergence border on spam. However, he thinks that the reason I have [i]not[/i] been banned is because of my Mythic status.
Now, as I've not come to the forums for quite a long time(to me), I have no idea if this seems to be a plausible, prevalent phenomenon.
What do you think?
EDIT: argh! accursed character limit in the title bar!
[Edited on 04.01.2009 9:20 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Reptilian Rob [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos What I hate is posts about elitism. Sorry, but "elitism" is, to me, an excuse used to not do something. [/quote] That was the jest of what I was trying to convey, perhaps you misread my previous post. Or perhaps you are only proving my point. I'll reply in depth later. [/quote] My thoughts exactly.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos What I hate is posts about elitism. Sorry, but "elitism" is, to me, an excuse used to not do something. [/quote] That was the jest of what I was trying to convey, perhaps you misread my previous post. Or perhaps you are only proving my point. I'll reply in depth later. [Edited on 04.03.2009 11:31 AM PDT]
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Yeah, I hate elitism. No, not elitism in general. I have a well developed ego, I don't really care what some random guy on the Internet thinks about me. I have been known to critique the quality of insults sent to me when I ban people. What I hate is posts about elitism. Sorry, but "elitism" is, to me, an excuse used to not do something. I almost NEVER consider what people say when they use the word "elitism." That's the best way to convince me that you don't understand community management and that you have nothing of value to contribute. There will always be people on the Internet and in life that have to justify their existence by trying to claim they are better then others. The big secret is that those types of people aren't better than others, and are, in fact, worse. I don't understand what's so hard about ignoring those people. I don't understand why you feel the need to complain about some random group who has a self-esteem problem, or why it is relevant here. At any rate, my posts about changes for the way titles are selected is because I like them as a customization option more than I like them for displaying a generalized form of an arbitrary trust rating that you can't see or predict other than "don't get banned". I'd still probably keep the prefixes around, and tie them to trust rating a bit more. The point is that while trust ratings are useful, titles base on them aren't really "fun", where as a system that unlocks titles for you to choose from based on your various activities in the community is more fun, more transparent, and expandable as I see fit, with the added bonus that I don't have to listen to people whine to me wondering why they lost their title after getting banned for spamming. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Reptilian Rob waaaaaaaaaaah... elitism[/quote]
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You already do. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] z MASTERCHIEF z Something I wish could be implemented would be earning trust based on activity without actually posting. I'm on here a lot reading the forums, but I don't actually post that much. I can see that this would be abused though, so maybe it's not such a good idea.[/quote]
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I can't believe we have to go over this YET AGAIN, but here we go. I'm going to type hastily, I have class in twenty minutes. You know for all the complaining and bull-blam!- that goes on here, you'd think we'd have developed the cure for cancer or colonized other worlds. I think I've been a polite user. Perhaps not perfect, but who is? Well, I'm going counterproductive for a second so put on those reading glasses and let me lay it on think. Face it, the majority of people that venture to this community are nothing more than the remains of someone who's had their egos shattered into so many fragments it's like sorting through a bag legal document. And the only way to make themselves feel important or for people to even -blam!- listen to them is to become a self absorbed snarly asswipe who holds themselves to standards they don't even hold themselves to. Because they know, they know where they're going, they're going absolutely know where. They're stuck here on a damn internet forum, where the sweet smell of anonymous harassment rings true. So for all the rebuttals I get, for all the arguments that have been supposedly won with the obnoxious "OMG I baited you, lol you fail", there is something here that doesn't add up. So in retrospect, should you come here to seek intelligent and mind engaging dissuasions about Halo lore or community affairs? Probably not, I'll be honest. For every decent thread there are thousands more that would fit less conspicuously in a land fill. What really makes this site reek like a $4 whore is the elitism, oh yes, elitism so think and creamy you could sell it as butter. There are a number of groups (I wont name them to save the little dignity they have stashed away) that feed off elitism and sit in their "off limits" (I know, that sound so -blam!- stupid) groups and suck each other off. One group in particular (once again not naming) actually hold a number of moderators and members that are to such a high manner of elitism and self loathing that it's like participating in a depression self awareness class. While this seems lame enough, it gets so much lamer, just incredibly stupid. In said group, the moderators who are members actually have a thread where they ask who wants to have them nominate them as a moderator. So, it's basically a giant cluster-blam!- of "oh oh oh pick me, pick me"! That sounds -blam!- stupid! Just ridiculous amounts of lame of the highest order! Sadly enough, some of the moderators who walk among you have been chosen this way. It's like coming full circle, individuals who hate themselves and have ego issues picking others who hate themselves and have ego issues. God, you have to love the internet that way! So there it is, for what it amasses to, a giant pile of downhill spirals and anti-depressants. How do I know this and what is it based on? Well, a year ago I used to be just like the people in question. Before I realized that there was an open world of fresh air and green grass for me to be a part of. I remember it well, I was right in the middle of reading a thread similar to this, and it hit me. I just closed my notebook, slowly rose from my chair, got into my car and drove to the beach. I just remember walking up and down the dunes thinking "this is what I've been neglecting, this is what it means to just live". I hit my studies hard after that, just focusing on the big picture and never forgetting what my goals were. And do you know what I'm doing now? I'm a year away from a masters in Astronomy/Cosmology with an internship at the San Diego JPL facility. I rarely even come here anymore, I'm more of a passerby at this point. Try not to worry so much about, "Member Titles" or "Elitism". The truth of the matter is it's going to happen frequently because there is a divide in this community, always has been and always will be. If your going to post here, the best action you can take against it is to "tip toe" around some of the moderators petty egos (as pathetic as that sounds). So you know, just sit back relax and enjoy the ride and don't take things too seriously (especially an internet forum for -blam!- sake). After all, you're just atoms and molecules on a planet drifting through a boundless universe. Yeah, think about that you lucky string of particles! (Oh, one more thing. Don't take what anybody says on this site seriously. Because looking at some of the posts in this beautiful thread I can see that some of our users have no Idea what they are trying to convey). [Edited on 04.03.2009 11:06 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A Celtic Tiger I haven't seen a Mythic member blacklisted. Because they don't do anything to deserve that.[/quote] Quite a few have. Look at the group for Mythic Members Only, and a lot are now just members. 3 off the top of my head come in mind. To me, it is a rather ridiculous thing when people are exempted from punishment because of their status bar. For once in my BNET life, I'm with Yoozel on the whole "they've been here, they should know the rules". Never thought I'd take his side, but, it is true. If anything the punishments should be more severe, because they are so much more wise than thou. Just me though.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Placid Platypus [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x For me personally, Legendary and Mythic members get more leeway generally -- not necessarily because I know them, but because their member titles are a recognition of a long history of being around, being active, and not getting into trouble with the rules. If I send a message to a Mythic Member asking him to please not make a certain type of post, or please be sure to post in a certain forum from now on, I know I will get a response back that is coherent and reasonable. If I post in a Mythic Member's off-topic thread with the reason why the thread is being locked, I know that the Mythic Member will read it and try to avoid doing that kind of thing anymore.[/quote] So, you trust people based simply off of colored pixels? If that's the case, what of some one who was Mythic, but due to a decline in participation, has become a 'lesser' member? Do you trust them less simply because their bar isn't a certain color. I'd go as far as to call such behavior possibly absurd, and certainly favoritism. Personally I think that if you sent "a message to [any] Member asking him to please not make a certain type of post, or please be sure to post in a certain forum from now on", most would understand what you are saying and agree to do as you say. Give people more credit than it seems like you do, and I'd wager you may just be surpised with how many members act like Mythics given the chance. For that matter, what of members who have been around for some time but don't have a Mythic status due to their unwillingness to post for the sake of posting? I'd postulate that a good number of members have lurked for quite a while and rarely post, especially when compared to the relative total number of actual Mythic members who actively do so (post, that is). People make mistakes and I find it unfair to treat one class of members differently from another. Yes, I know that this is "Bungie's site, we have no rights, play nice", so don't give me that line. That doesn't excuse letting some people get away with things you'd ban or blacklist others for. If a new member mistakenly posts something in the wrong forum simply because he didn't know to first look to the side of a forum for a tiny header (or multiple headers as is often the case) and read the detailed rules for each and every forum on B.net, that does not mean they either won't get around to doing so or would have ignored them if they did. Sometimes mistakes are honestly made, so why punish someone for such? If a sense of 'community' is as important to everyone here as this thread is making it out to be, why ban and possibly 'turn off' a new user to the site when that same user could have potentially become a Mythic member or even the next Stosh somewhere down the line? I believe a sense of community is founded on respect and that respect should extend to everyone, and this is the important part, [b]equally[/b]. When one set of people recieve more respect than others you don't have a community, you have cliques. Then again, who am I to say anything? I'm just a member who doesn't have a blue bar nor has the time to post every day.[/quote]I understand where you're coming from, but hopefully if I can correct some of your line of thinking, your outrage will be a little bit lessened. I am not saying that users with just a "Member" title are untrustworthy. Hell, some of the users I trust the [i]most[/i] here have a "Member" title. What I'm saying, however, is that a member who is Legendary or Mythic has a [i]proven[/i] track record of relatively active forum posting combined with posting within the rules. In general (and with some admitted exceptions), these members know the rules and try to abide by them. If they make a misstep and I tell them about it, they are likely to correct it. I have to disagree that "most" users would "act like Mythics given the chance." This is not cynicism -- I know that many members hope to achieve a higher title. I also know that a huge majority of the users here are good-natured, nice people who just want to come and talk about their favorite video game or gaming community for awhile. But long experience and observation have taught that [i]most[/i] members post by trial-and-error. In other words, they post what and where they feel like it, and if they get warned/banned for it, THAT is when they know not to do it again. In some cases, they post what and where they feel like it and if they get banned for it they simply wait out the ban and then do it again. This description fits the vast, vast majority of users of these forums, and I would wager that not only have these users not read the forum rules, ToU, and CoC, they do not even know where to find them. I know that you're optimistic about the nature of most users of these forums, but please believe me when I say that this is the reality. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, either -- the vast majority of users have no stake in the forums and simply want to ask a quick question, have a one-off discussion about Halo or Matchmaking, or get caught up on the latest news. Nothing wrong with that, and for a user like that, there's really no reason to read the rules or post in any manner other than trial-and-error. But this kind of posting on a mass scale by thousands of users is not good for the forums as a whole, which is why the admins and moderators generally do what they can to discourage such trial-and-error posting. Most Legendary and Mythic members, on the other hand, have generally learned the rules either by keen observation over several YEARS on these forums or by actually reading the rules themselves. Before they even hit the "submit" button, they usually have a very good idea whether their post is within the rules or not. They are not posting by trial-and-error. But even then, they can make mistakes. That is where a little leeway comes in. I agree that great communities require a sense of respect and equality, but I don't think that this is inconsistent with that. Saying that a community has a "sense of equality" simply means that no discrimination occurs [i]for arbitrary reasons[/i]. Here, it is no different. All members are treated equally based on their trust rating and history on the forums. There is no arbitrary discrimination, but there is different treatment for members who have proven that they are upstanding and active community members. It sounds absolutely insane to say that a member with 15 prior bans for posting off-topic should receive the same ban for posting off-topic yet again as a Mythic Member who has been here for five years and slips up and accidentally posts in the wrong forum. I do not see how giving a bit of leeway to Legendary and Mythic members (or any member with a trust rating that indicates that they are both active and rule abiding) is either absurd or "favoritism" in the sense that you mean it.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SS_Zag1 They probably do, though you would think it would be the opposite, right? If you're a more experienced member you should, in theory, get harsher punishments for breaking the rules, as you should (and do) know better.[/quote] Agreed. If a high ranking member blatantly disregards forum rules then he should be banned. However, if said member has proven himself to typically be a positively contributing member to the community, the punishment could be less severe. Like I said though, you can't always tell whether a member usually contributes positively or negatively based solely on the color of his bar. [Edited on 04.03.2009 9:25 AM PDT]
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They probably do, though you would think it would be the opposite, right? If you're a more experienced member you should, in theory, get harsher punishments for breaking the rules, as you should (and do) know better.
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I've been Mythic on and off and to the best of my knowledge I have never been banned or warned. Be nice if one of the Ninja's could confirm this either way. [this was directed at SonicJohn, but I forgot to press the quote button and I don't want to go back to get it] [Edited on 04.03.2009 8:45 AM PDT]
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I agree with others' statements that those of higher rank should (and probably do) know the forum rules well and what is acceptable/what isn't. The color of the bar above their posts [b]suggests[/b] that they know right from wrong. However, as far as being just or merciful goes, it call comes down to judging the user's individual actions. Just because they have been a member for a long time does not mean that they cannot err.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Omnicent [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Placid Platypus Looooooooooooong rant. . . Is long.[/quote] It's like asking, "why listen to the President? He's just a person in a suit, he's [i]just[/i] a man!" well the answer is he's gone to college, done the hard yards and come out the other end. Same rules apply to mythics, they've been around for a while, have followed the rules, been productive members and have proof of it.[/quote]Clearly you don't know our presidents. Its like Yoozel said, when you have been around for a while you learn what is acceptable behavior and what is not. I've been gone for about a month and a half - like anyone reading this cares... correction: like anyone's reading this - and it was for a lot of reasons. The biggest being that I was sick and tired of people just ignoring posts and hitting the reply button to get noticed, post their two sense, or in the general public's case - act like idiots. Why I say this? 'Cause this is the sort of thing that the moderators have to deal with. The elder members don't do such things because, well... they aren't trying to impress everyone all the time - mostly. Should mythic/elder members be cut some slack? Probably when considering their history... but I've been held accountable for my behavior lots of times, ask Foman! =P
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Isn't the elitism argument a little over-blown? I am speaking only from my limited experience, but I have yet to see [i]anyone[/i] with a title act differently because of it. The complaiunts of elitism seem more like the come from the people withyout titles. I guess that's where they would come from. But, since your trust rating is entirely, if amiguously, in your own control, There is really no cause for cries of "special treatment." [Edited on 04.03.2009 5:39 AM PDT]
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It seems like a lot of people in this thread need to secure their passwords/computers from their younger siblings.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Placid Platypus Looooooooooooong rant. . . Is long.[/quote] It's like asking, "why listen to the President? He's just a person in a suit, he's [i]just[/i] a man!" well the answer is he's gone to college, done the hard yards and come out the other end. Same rules apply to mythics, they've been around for a while, have followed the rules, been productive members and have proof of it.
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lol, used to be noble, until i had to babysit, my cousin wrote in a spam thread inappropriately and BLAm, back to member, which truly hacked me off...
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x Foman123 x For me personally, Legendary and Mythic members get more leeway generally -- not necessarily because I know them, but because their member titles are a recognition of a long history of being around, being active, and not getting into trouble with the rules. If I send a message to a Mythic Member asking him to please not make a certain type of post, or please be sure to post in a certain forum from now on, I know I will get a response back that is coherent and reasonable. If I post in a Mythic Member's off-topic thread with the reason why the thread is being locked, I know that the Mythic Member will read it and try to avoid doing that kind of thing anymore.[/quote] So, you trust people based simply off of colored pixels? If that's the case, what of some one who was Mythic, but due to a decline in participation, has become a 'lesser' member? Do you trust them less simply because their bar isn't a certain color. I'd go as far as to call such behavior possibly absurd, and certainly favoritism. Personally I think that if you sent "a message to [any] Member asking him to please not make a certain type of post, or please be sure to post in a certain forum from now on", most would understand what you are saying and agree to do as you say. Give people more credit than it seems like you do, and I'd wager you may just be surpised with how many members act like Mythics given the chance. For that matter, what of members who have been around for some time but don't have a Mythic status due to their unwillingness to post for the sake of posting? I'd postulate that a good number of members have lurked for quite a while and rarely post, especially when compared to the relative total number of actual Mythic members who actively do so (post, that is). People make mistakes and I find it unfair to treat one class of members differently from another. Yes, I know that this is "Bungie's site, we have no rights, play nice", so don't give me that line. That doesn't excuse letting some people get away with things you'd ban or blacklist others for. If a new member mistakenly posts something in the wrong forum simply because he didn't know to first look to the side of a forum for a tiny header (or multiple headers as is often the case) and read the detailed rules for each and every forum on B.net, that does not mean they either won't get around to doing so or would have ignored them if they did. Sometimes mistakes are honestly made, so why punish someone for such? If a sense of 'community' is as important to everyone here as this thread is making it out to be, why ban and possibly 'turn off' a new user to the site when that same user could have potentially become a Mythic member or even the next Stosh somewhere down the line? I believe a sense of community is founded on respect and that respect should extend to everyone, and this is the important part, [b]equally[/b]. When one set of people recieve more respect than others you don't have a community, you have cliques. Then again, who am I to say anything? I'm just a member who doesn't have a blue bar nor has the time to post every day. [Edited on 04.03.2009 2:18 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] N1CK5TER I've noticed it in groups, in fact in the group I run I've done it myself. It just makes sense. If you've been around a while you won't get in trouble since the mods sort of know you. If you're friends with a cop who pulls you over, you won't get a ticket most times. Same basic principle.[/quote] I'd agree with Nick. That seems to be how it works, regardless of member title or bar colors. I haven't been banned much, not ever more than a week. A mod once shortened a well deserved ban because I had a technical question to post in the Flood. (You know who you are, and I still love you!) I've gotten a little leeway, not too much but a little. They know who I am, they know that I'm mature, and they know that I'm gonna be here for a while.
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Uhh. . . How much lee-way do I get?
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It can be obvious at times that the Mods are more lenient towards higher ranked members and that's fine,they've been around awhile and probably deserve a little slack. As long as they don't break any major rules(pronz for example) it seems alright to me,although I've on an occasion or two, seen a thread get nuked and the only couple people left were members with higher titles...that's where I think the favoritism crosses the line. If you are gonna blacklist everybody in a thread you better damn well be banning your buddies too.
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I just don't see why a members trust rating should have any relevance to any of us regular members who weren't tasked with moderating the forums. I understand the initial deterrent they bring on in the "If I behave and don't get banned, I'll be promoted to something fancier". That said, an invisible trust rating only mods could see would be best off for everyone. Title bars are perceived as ranks no matter the original design, and as long as they stay the way they are they will always be perceived as such. The current system isn't flawed, but it brings in more problems then it solves (even if it wasn't originally meant to "solve" any problem, but instead be a fun gimmick). I'm not picking them apart or saying they are initially bad, just that for the one deterrent they provide the efficiency is off.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Pezz It comes down to this - is removing this person beneficial to the community? If someone posts amazing threads 90% of the time, then trolls 10% of the time, chances are I'll give them chances.... >_> Most mythic members are long time institutions in the community, they're important to withold the sense of community and they're part of the experience. So that has a bearing sometimes. But as soon as they cross the line, just like anyone else, they're gone. --------------------------- That's how it used to be, actually. Back when I recognised the mythics and being mythic wasn't a blue title bar but reputation and influence. Now I don't really know mythic from regular. The Ninja's of today are less involved with the actual community functioning; posting and contributing and whatnot. I feel much less weighted than I did in the past. Nuking threads in 2006 would lead to people blocking each other over MSN, ugly XBL encounters and destruction of friendships - but now I'm distant enough, unknown enough to not step on toes. So no. We were always pretty impartial, or tried our best to be (inb4 snide comment by elmicker or Shai), but it's easier nowadays.[/quote] Interesting you bring this up! You see I have been working on a logo as of late. Feedback would be greatly appreciated. "Bungie.net, a community so elitist, so utterly stuck up their own ass and withdrawn from any other activity the world may hold for them (self loathers included!)...............you can't help but laugh". [Edited on 04.03.2009 2:11 AM PDT]
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Possibly,
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It's interesting to note that the system in place has done a different job than it was originally intended to do. BUT you do have to agree that while this forum is generally well behaved, The reason behind it is many of the older members find this a good haven to discuss things related to Bungie.net and other Bungie items. It's no surprise that most of the webteams post are contained in this forum (not that it's a bad thing) and that most mods seem to "open" up more about how they deal with things on the forums here too. I think in general this is just a place where some of the older members come to post, because they know it's the most serious forum, we have our fun, we have our spam but in general we are a good forum. That's not to discredit any younger members who post here, Cause they seem to understand what this forum is for, but go to the flood or Halo 3 forum and you will see repeated topics, off topic posts, spam and just generally amusing posts. Most because they are fairly new to the site and just want answers to questions about Halo 3 or like any kind of off topic forum they are always looking for that bar. Of course I think a system in which you can earn different ranks by doing different things either in game or on the site itself is a good concept. It not only promotes you to play the games that the developer makes, but rewards you on their sites for doing so (imagine being able to show off some kind of neat title bar on the COD forums because you got the mile high club achievement. That would be cool. But also keeping the website based ratings would be nice, Yes maybe they aren't perfect, but they do seem to encourage good post a lot more than other forums, and I've seen a lot better posting around here since they were put in, With that said I'm wonder if anything like the Xbox forums icon system was ever thought of for here. Icons for good posting, good F.A.Q's and other things, Not so much the number based system itself though as that caused issues to me.
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Wow... .this thread kind of blew out of proportion... If anyone wants my opinion(which i doubt), I think that there should be no member titles, color, etc. Of course I like the old purpley-bluey forum system better in every conceivable way... Those were the days!
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I cried like a little -blam!- when Foman banned me for calling someone fail, or whatever the hell it was. But not because it changed my member title, but because of how stupid of a thing it was to be banned over. I'm not insulting Foman here, there are rules, I broke them, I deserved what I got. A warning as opposed to a ban would have been nice, but whatever. What I mean by what a stupid thing it was to be banned for is, how stupid it was on my part. I could have contributed to the thread in an articulate manner, I knew that I should have, and I knew that simply saying you're full of fail was wrong, but I did it anyway. That's what's stupid. I've been trolling here for years, never bothered to register, then I finally do and barely make it more than a year before I get a ban. Had I been a mythic member I probably would have thought twice. So even if some leeway is given, I think it's perfectly acceptable. Supposedly with age comes wisdom right? I'm so rambling here, I'll go now before this gets any more incoherant and I get another ban for spam.
