Oh and one more thing. I love how people defend Uldren by saying he was under the influence. You think Cayde was the first Guardian he killed? He lied and sent Guardians to their deaths several times before. It’s in his D1 lore. He earned that bullet before we ever met him.

Oh I don’t defend him per se. He was an arrogant duck when we first meet him. But per the lore he disobeyed orders and went to the black garden years ago, and it affected his mind. Then later got partially taken and infected with literal darkness. After that he fell deeper and deeper into literal control by dark entities. He waged a campaign of terror against his own people and then killed Cayde to use his gun in the ritual to free “his sister” And at the end, even after realizing he’d been screwed over he said he wouldn’t have changed a thing. So yeh. Uldren was an a hole that deserved to die. Crow… not so much.

I don't care he killed cayde. I have disliked him since d1 when he put a knife to our throat and talked -blam!-.

That was Uldren. Crow isn’t Uldren. Crow has been nothing but nice to us. Uldren though was an a hole and deserved a slow death for what he did to his people and to the vanguard.

Your attempt to compare it to modern day is inherently flawed. Fighting over greed, sure, you have morals and lines not to be crossed. Because escalation mostly, cultural degradation secondly. Fighting against genocide against space monsters who have been steam rolling the cosmos and already kicked your butt once? Not remotely the same. You can’t fight an enemy like that with the same morals and lines. That’s [i]reality[/i]. The truth is, we killed some foot soldiers because a Big Bad both sides wanted dead popped up. Uldren screwed with a procedure to get much needed intelligence. For our part, the people we killed didn’t die in vain. We got the target. Crow? Yeah, that was a waste. So I wouldn’t try making comparisons like that. It’s apples to oranges.

I disagree. He's on point. The Dark Age already had this madness and no one batted an eye. I can't condone what we are doing. Not against the Light.

[quote]Uldren screwed with a procedure to get much needed intelligence.[/quote] or... crow ended the procedure once we got the intel so that caiatl wouldn't be able to gain intel on how the hive hacked the traveller. that expert psyop cabal psion was likely a cabal 'trojan horse'. as if caiatl doesn't have plans of her own. she wants our traveller like every other villian. look at what calus did to katabasis aboard the glycon. correct me if im wrong but he placed the crown of sorrow directly underneath the guardian in order to hack his light via some mimicry hive ritual. emperor calus and empress caitl have same objective. thanks to crow, caiatl still doesn't know how the hive tricked the traveller. she is stuck being attila. she is trying to be the witch doctor.

The Hive didn’t hack or trick the Traveler lol Calus and Caitl don’t have the same objective. At all.

Cedar is pointing out the Traveler blessed many civilizations before, but it has a moral stance that is anti darkness. In choosing any faction it determines they are worthy to fight against it. Calus and Caitl have similar objectives short-term to help stabilize their positions, but long-term change rapidly and exponentially under the umbrella of surviving the onslaught somehow/someway. The bigger issue with Crow is the open defiance which will never be seen as an act of benevolence. It was in the name of it that Uldren's influence has taken over some of Crow's judgment calls. This was to be expected by anyone smart enough to realize why the memories should stay buried. Crow is still being groomed into the Hunter vanguard. I still laugh at any hunter who will be loyal to him and, at the same time, hate his guts until his final death. But the big question now is what controversy existed with Cayde because, for all the time we knew him, we never knew how well he was with his hunters. Or why the status quo when he died, lore-wise, only allowed our choice guardian to pursue him. This suggests the status quo never really changed and why Crow might fit even after all of this: Maybe all vanguard leaders are this demoralized within that some will like/forgive, but others will not. Either way. Crow did a big mistake with technology, but the intent of the lore is what concerns me. The words were chosen in it, the belief he was driven to, and the story alarm me. I personally don't know if he is under the influence of someone or something still. That's why I think Spoiler Alert is still active. I still think someone else is going to die in this season. There's a nagging in the back of the mind that Crow fulfilled something bigger with this "accident"... and he is like Saladin said: You are who we have been trying to tell you to be. Maybe it is time to let Crow be a hunter and live a lonely life (at least lore-wise) because he's tied to this somehow. The controversy for a single guardian on this scale is unheard of.

So we should have been torturing cabal this whole time? They were genocidal: frequently destroying planets and even tried to blow up earth. They were aliens. They kicked our butt. Or how about fallen. They were killing us as much as we killed them. And they got some wins in. Yet now they’re our friends. We were torturing arisen Hive. The rule in the tower is arisen (guardians) get a pass on their previous life since they’re new. So… rules for thee but not for me?

We are friends with a small portion of the fallen. We are allied with most of the cabal. Caitl has even informed all cabal that any act of defiance towards the alliance is free game for us and or punishment from her. We have not been friends with any hive. Also, aside from a tiny few outliers, no fallen worship the darkness nor cabal. Hive do. Regardless of these new hive light bearers, they were still using it with malicious intent towards us. You can't really input real life modern logic into this fantasy story seeing as how we don't fight for our lives against alien races each and every day.

I never understood the whole thing about those cabal at the beginning of Witch Queen being Caitls troops, they were not wearing anything blue to indicate they were blue legion they were literally all just grey and red