[quote]1. If you support fully autonomous persons, you cannot tell a woman what to do with her body. This is also a moral argument, not a legal one. 2. If you champion freedom, then you support a woman's right to choose. If you do not support a woman's right to choose, you do not support freedom nor gender equality. 3. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk6gOeggViw]The availability of abortion leads to a lower crime-rate[/url]. (I'm merely presenting this as a fact as it's not well-known). 4. Forcing a woman to carry to full-term is oppressive. 5. Pregnancy, especially those that are unplanned, severely disrupts a female's life. That's not "[i]can[/i] severely disrupt", that's a certainty. 6. Consider a scenario where a 15 year old student from a poor socio-economic society has become pregnant, which unfortunately isn't uncommon by any stretch. She will very likely need to drop out of school, encounter severe financial hardship, depression, etc... which will force her to abandon all her hopes and dreams for the future; she will not graduate, go to college, start a career, and so on. Her child will be born into a sad life of crime and poverty. She will likely live alone with her child as a single mother. That, in my opinion, is a depressingly cruel existence to be born into, and to force a mother to endure.[/quote]1. That's great and all, but I'm not telling anyone what to do with their body, since an unborn body is a human being, not a part of someone else's body. The baby has its own autonomy, and if you support abortion, you are the one who does not value personal autonomy by allowing innocent human beings to be murdered. 2. False. I am for freedom, and I am for life. The most important right of all rights is the intrinsic right to live of every human being, all other rights are secondary to this. If you support abortion, you are against human rights and freedom as well. 3. Sure, it might. But the cost is not worth it, in any way. 4. "Forcing not to kill each other is oppressive" oh wait, no it's not. 5. Sure it does. But a human life means infinitely more then anyone's emotional well being. 6. Or, she can give it up for adoption, and continue on with her life. Problem solved.

Hey, Max, what about abortion in the first trimester? Do you still object to that?

Of course I do. Don't you know me? :P

But on what grounds? They're practically indistinguishable from trees.

They are still human beings.

And what weight does that hold?

The right to life is intrinsic to every human being.

The right to kill innocent children is not a 'women's right', it's slaughter, plane and simple.

[quote] not a part of someone else's body.[/quote]You literally have no idea how pregnancy works.

[quote]1. That's great and all, but I'm not telling anyone what to do with their body, [/quote]Bullshit you are, you're saying that a woman MUST carry a baby for 9 months (and that has a whole string of unpleasant side effects) and then you're forcing her to give birth, one of if not the most painful things any human can experience - that's the definition of cruel and unusual punishment as well. [quote]since an unborn body is a human being, [b]not a part of someone else's body.[/b][/quote]Yeah it is, it's called being connected to and entirely dependent on the mother's body. [i]What is the umbilical cord?[/i] [quote]The baby has its own autonomy,[/quote][b]Babies[/b] have autonomy, [b]Fetuses[/b] do not. You're being disingenuous by using the two terms as synonyms when they are completely different things. [quote]and if you support abortion, you are the one who does not value personal autonomy[/quote]The hypocrisy is staggering. [quote]by allowing innocent human beings to be murdered.[/quote]Am I, and every other male who has ever lived, guilty of genocide for jacking off and killing "innocent human beings"? No, your point is full of shit. [quote]2. False. I am for freedom, and I am for life.[/quote]Yet you're against the freedom of women and want to ruin their lives, that's odd. [quote]The most important right of all rights is the intrinsic right to live of every human being[/quote]What about the rights of the mother? [quote]all other rights are secondary to this.[/quote]Like the rights of an unborn fetus! [quote]If you support abortion, you are against human rights and freedom as well.[/quote]Pot Kettle Black, your hypocrisy is showing. [quote]3. Sure, it might. But the cost is not worth it, in any way.[/quote]Nice counterargument, it's really convincing and well thought out and not circular at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [quote]4. "Forcing not to kill each other is oppressive" oh wait, no it's not.[/quote]Nice counterargument, it's really convincing and well thought out and addresses the point that was made!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [quote]5. Sure it does. But a human life means infinitely more then anyone's emotional well being.[/quote]If human life means so much, why are you intentionally trying to ruin the mother's life, and by extension the fetus if it is born? Broken families aren't a good thing you know. [quote]6. Or, she can give it up for adoption, and continue on with her life. Problem solved.[/quote]First off: Bullshit you are, you're saying that a woman MUST carry a baby for 9 months (and that has a whole string of unpleasant side effects) and then you're forcing her to give birth, one of if not the most painful things any human can experience - that's the definition of cruel and unusual punishment as well. Second off: You're completely ignoring the social repercussions caused by getting pregnant, woman get a lot of shit simply for having sex, do you even understand what they get if they get pregnant accidentally? (though that's a weaker point than most as if you live in a better area the repercussions can be virtually non existent, but if you're living in a better area you're almost certainly not getting pregnant on accident) Third off: You're assuming that children are perfectly fine with being adopted, that it isn't going to effect them and make their life harder. You say you're pro-life, yet you don't even consider ANYONE'S LIFE. [b] You're pro-ego, because your ego is the only thing that benefits from this.[/b]

You have just presented some of the worst counterpoints I've ever seen on the Flood, and that's really saying something. Congratulations!

And you haven't presented any counterpoints at all! I think you may have brain problems!

Sure I have, to people that were actually worth my time.

[quote]I'm going to act condescending despite not being in any position to do so![/quote]Aren't you a cool kid? Due to Poe's laws and and this site's bad rep, I can't tell if your pulling my leg or just pretending to be retarded (though you'd have to be at least slightly retarded to do such a thing), so give me a real reply or admit your rhetoric is shit.

[quote]Poe's law, named after its author Nathan Poe, is an Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism.[/quote]Nice try buddy. Poe's Law is only applicable to extremism, try again. As for your request, no, I'm not responding to your initial post, I already responded to Daz's points, which were the same as yours, only not as ill thought out.

[quote]Nice try buddy. Poe's Law is only applicable to extremism, try again.[/quote]It pretty clearly has applicability to ANY situation where you can't tell if the person is being serious or joking, so the point still stands (though with that in mind, your view of enforcing cruel and unusual punishment IS rather extreme). [quote]As for your request, no, I'm not responding to your initial post, I already responded to Daz's points[/quote]I don't care, those are his points, these are mine. [quote]which were the same as yours, only not as ill thought out.[/quote]Yet you seem to be incapable of articulating WHY my points are so bad...

I'll cut you a deal here buddy. Make the post again, only do it politely, remove the stuff you know is stupid (that whole thing about ejaculation being genocide, because you know as well as I do that that's a terrible argument), and I'll answer it. Otherwise, no. I've been trying to be more polite in debates lately, and I can't do that in argument with a post like yours.

[quote][quote]1. If you support fully autonomous persons, you cannot tell a woman what to do with her body. This is also a moral argument, not a legal one. [/quote]1. That's great and all, but I'm not telling anyone what to do with their body, since an unborn body is a human being, not a part of someone else's body. The baby has its own autonomy, and if you support abortion, you are the one who does not value personal autonomy by allowing innocent human beings to be murdered.[/quote] Pretty sure [url=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autonomy]"autonomy"[/url] means it has to be able to exist on its own and I am pretty sure the fertilized egg has to attach itself to the woman's body in order to survive... Pretty sure that also renders your first counterpoint wrong since you ARE telling a woman what to do with her body.

Being connected to somebody does not make you a part of them.