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Destiny

Diskutiere über alles, was mit Destiny zu tun hat.
Bearbeitet von Kallisto: 2/23/2013 10:54:16 PM
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Death, Meaning, and Destiny

[i]“Death gives meaning to our lives. It gives importance and value to time. Time would become meaningless if there were too much of it.”[/i] ― Ray Kurzweil In MMO's of recent years the player is essentially promised that, regardless of their skill level, they will become all-powerful if they simply put in the time, and the player does not hesitate to put in several dozen hours per week in pursuit of this promised greatness. Eventually we acquire those legendary pieces of gear and hit that level cap. "WE DID IT!" We've finally arrived at the all-powerful, all-conquering state that we've wanted and worked so hard to acquire. The rush and feeling of accomplishment wears off rather quickly, however, as we then then look for ways to become even greater. The game devs recognize this and then release an expansion that promises to satisfy the players insatiable appetite for power, dominion, and accomplishment for a price. We buy it, hit the new level cap, and get the uber-mythic gear that is promised for slaying the final boss. Again, we rejoice, and again, the good feeling wears off. This addictive formula is everywhere in multiplayer gaming today. "Play more to unlock this or that. You will be awesome if you do". [b]The meaning of the entire experience is an empty meaning―an illusory facade catering to the insecurities of the human being.[/b] What if the focus of the entire video game was NOT to BECOME or ACQUIRE greatness for yourself or with a team of your friends but to EXPERIENCE another world and the way your presence and the presence of others in that world impacts others and, ultimately, the entire virtual universe? [b]What if the death of your game character carried with it the ultimate gaming penalty: 'Game Over'?[/b] What if there were no respawns, but only starting over from scratch upon death? No longer a race to the level cap, rare gear, or a grind through the game's story, the experience (you and your group's individual stories) takes center stage. The game would make you play smart and think first about how to not die rather than how to kill. "Be Brave" would have a whole new meaning, no? How rare and awesome it would be to see a high level character or to have been one yourself. The legacy and stories you would have to tell or experience with your friends like how you, time and time again, have just barely escaped death at several places in the solar system as you were saved by an unusual and lucky series of events. Afterall, it is these moments, through all our years of gaming, that we never forget and that keep us coming back. We all want to experience something awesome, unique, and totally unexpected in these games we play. We want those 'holy shit' moments that aren't scripted. Those moments you couldn't replicate or even think up if you tried. Those stories live on for years with you and your friends as you tell the story again and again, laughing about it until your side aches. It is these moments that make multiplayer gaming the joy that it can be. Not buying, unlocking or acquiring that shiny thing just out of reach. Eventually, however, you will die. Your enduring legacy, your rare or not so rare gear, and all you've achieved will be gone, but its not the end of the world because, knowing all along that once you die it's over, it was never really about acquiring or becoming anything. It was always about adventure, survival, and exploration of a virtual, yet, living and breathing universe where incredible things can and do happen, and we can share that experience with both our best friends and others we encounter along the way. [i]"We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time."[/i] ―T.S. Eliot Without the egotistic poison of "acquiring and becoming the best", I believe the MMO experience finds relevant meaning personally and socially. I know Destiny probably won't be like this, so this is more of a love letter to Bungie. I think they know what I mean to say. They will surely find an even better and deeper way to bring real meaning into the FPS, MMO, and overall multiplayer gaming world that I believe it severely lacks. EDIT: If players were too scared to explore on their own and forced to go out in groups it defeats the whole purpose. This is about a fundamental shift in the player and why they are playing a game. It's about no longer 'playing to win', but playing to have an experience in another world. [b]Sometimes you win, sometimes you fail. It's finally failing after an epic go you have with a character that gives meaning to all those wins.[/b] Being able to essentially record everything our characters do with video, stats, and screenshots through some kind of epic 'theater mode' would be key. After your character dies you're left with a story about a Guardian who came into the game world, did some crazy awesome stuff and found some amazing areas in an otherwise unexplored world before he was tragically ambushed, cornered, and killed by a group of Cabal. You could document the entire journey the character went on and share it with the world. Just imagine all the crazy stories and emotional tales. But without permanent death the whole thing doesn't even matter. The amazing things in games are then simply ground out. I understand wanting players of all skill levels to be able to enjoy the entire game you made, so I guess this requires a fundamental shift in the reason devs create a game in the first place. It is failure and death that gives meaning, not winning all the time. Game devs need to understand this. Video games have reached a place where they could potentially be truly amazing experiences. It is our own human insecurities that is holding video games back from true greatness. ***Please scan down for my other comments, as I make a few more relevant points that I would have liked to have had in the OP.***

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  • While I sympathize with your idea, I must admit it is terrible in practicality. Nothing we have been shown so far makes us think perma death could work in destiny. It is supposed to be a [b]long game[/b] that is in part [b]dependent on other people[/b]. Being 100 hours into the game and getting killed because someone else dropped the ball would be terrible. Also as others have mentioned in an RTS fatal shit just happens. Ive had an enemy banshee I killed explode and the burning debris murder me. Also if Perma death was instituted it would almost guarantee that the game would be easier and [b]I would fight you[/b] for that. It seems you want Perma death in order to feel more accomplishment, so I offer these counter proposals. Instead of Perma death I think some hardcore challenges would be better. Like take out the entire enemy patrol by yourself without them seeing you or lead a raid on a supply depot without taking any casualties and killing the escaping enemy leader. Maybe even [b]special missions that you only get to try once[/b] (or once a month?) for a special reward.

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    4 Antworten
    • The spine of your "perma-death theory" centers on experiencing the game, nothing more. Perma-death and "low-ceilings", you say, adds meaning to the game and forces players to focus on their experiences within the game. But you do not need either of those limiting factors to derive awesome experiences from gaming. We don't need to eliminate all distracting factors such as stats, skill trees, and ranked gear to immerse ourselves within the game. For many, the progress they make in games through stats, levels, etc are experiences they'll cherish and love. We play games to experience them, whether in the way you describe or by any way anyone chooses. Your mistake is in insisting that your preferred way of experiencing the game is the purest, the most refined, the next evolution of games. I'll admit that I've never played a permadeath game. But I know what it is to lose hours of ceaseless work in a matter of seconds. I know the shock that jolts your mind as you watch your avatar fall and you realize that all that you've worked for is gone. Vanished. Wasted. And I know that that does nothing, nothing to augment your experience in any conventional game with levels, gear, and stats. What you are proposing is a game like Journey, with open-world elements and permadeath. That sounds cool. But here, that's not what we're looking for. If you want to play without fear or care of those "limiting-elements", then there are many, many other games that don't feature leveling or gear at all. But you want an open world, and I'm confident that someday you'll find what you describe. I remember the first Nuclear medal I earned in Black Ops 2. I play COD for a quick fix, to relax, forget. I remember the map, my loadout, the game mode. And I can recall every kill. Every step I sprinted, every C4 i threw, and every dropshot I took during those minutes. I can recall the first time I wandered into the wilderness in Runescape, at least seven years ago, proudly in my new full rune armor that I'd spent days fishing to finance for, and I remember how I got my ass kicked within 10 minutes. For me, though I can remember those unforgettable lone wolf moments in games, the real pleasure from gaming experiences comes from sharing. When it's not just you, but a party of real-life friends taking down that huge boss. Real euphoric gaming experiences come to genuine interactions with other real people, and that occurs in multiplayer games regardless of perma-death or not. There are experiences we'll never forget from gaming. It doesn't matter how we experience them. Epic moments will occur, and they'll be awesome whether you have one or unlimited lives in the process. We need to add more meaning to you gaming experiences, you say, make dying scarier and kill off distracting factors like stats and leveling. But gaming is nothing but meaningless experiences. Everything you do in a game translates to nothing substantial in the real world (for 99% of us, at the least). But if you think about it, life is meaningless as well. Society and civilization is a huge game we built, the the universe is oblivious to. We have no impact, no importance outside our tiny realities. But I digress. What I am saying is that gaming cannot be any more meaningful of the experiences we derive from it, and that those experiences don't require any specific factors to trigger other than interactions with other people. New experiences don't require new characters. You can go delete yourself every time you die if you wish. Everyone has their own preferred way to enjoy gaming.To each their own.

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      • Bearbeitet von NaLo: 2/23/2013 8:59:37 PM
        Permanent death is an interesting idea but I'm not sure if it would work in Destiny. [quote]Life asked Death: [i]"Why do people love me but hate you?"[/i] Death responded: [i]"Because you're a beautiful lie and I'm a painful truth"[/i][/quote]

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        • I feel I'm not getting through, so I'm going to take another stab at it here... Imagine a game where the entire virtual universe spanning the entirety of the game is like one giant and incredibly complex multiplayer deathmatch arena filled with other things to do besides killing the vast array of enemies. What if the game world had a "low ceiling" as far as player progression, but a vast amount of customization options within that low ceiling. The playing field would be more or less level, yet everyone would be able to look and play the way they want to since there are different classes with different abilities(assuming the game is balanced). You don't have to go through the process of creating a whole new character when you die. You lose everything besides your custom look. There is no leveling and the best weapons you can find in the world are not dramatically better than those you acquire at the "beginning" of the game. Sure there are rare guns and that's cool, but when you die your guns lay on your corpse until you or someone comes and snags them. They aren't GONE from the world, but being handed off from player to player through the game's cycle of life and death (think ZombieU). Even if they do get blown off a cliff they will "respawn" somewhere in the world to be found once again. It's cool to have a rare gun, and they will give the player a slight edge, but you can kill anyone just the same with any weapon so it will come down to your personal preferences with how a gun shoots and how it serves or hinders your playstyle. Losing your shit won't be a devastation. Maybe it will be an incentive to hunt those players down and take it back or something... ...a sort of universe wide game of multi-ball oddball, if you will. I'm sure all sorts of great scenarios would come up. At any rate, what's left is for players to engage each other and the environment in a vast number of ways rather than the whole focus of the game being about becoming a badass with the best gear with the best stats. You then realize that everyone is a badass, and together we can do some amazing things in this vibrantly alive universe that they wouldn't have even bothered to care about if everyone's focus was just to mindlessly go from A to B to acquire X. The devs could write the story they want to tell "into" the ever-changing, evolving, game world so that the players actions, whatever they may be, would always be a part of that story. We're so trapped in this box of the way games have been for years and years that these new ideas are just immediately dismissed. I don't blame anyone. It's natural. Nevertheless the MMO and FPS have hit a serious rut in the mainstream scene. It's time to get out of the box.

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        • Not a bad idea. Personally I like it. It gives it more realistic approach.

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        • Destiny doesn't seem like the kind of game for perma death. It follows a big story and having to redo the whole storyline all over agian after you died would really suck.

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        • I actually think perma-death takes away from the personal connections of players to their characters. I have played games like Day Z where when you die you restart, and that works for games like Day Z with no quests or linear story lines because maybe, when you played the first time, you went right and discovered a town infested with zombies, fought them, and ended up dying. When you restart, you might say " wow, going right was really fun, I wonder what I will see when I go left." So then you go left and encounter a haven of bandits and join their ranks. Each tie you restart there is a different experience waiting for you, so dying isn't really a big deal, and you don't really have a personal attachment to your character. That's the fun of the game. If Destiny is going to be anything like I think it is, then this idea will not work. Having to repeat quests or sections of a story over and over again will be amazingly frustrating. I'm sure Destiny will have some real time events, but that will not be what most of the game is centered around. After customizing a character and most importantly naming your character you build an emotional attachment to the character, it becomes your child almost. With light death consequences, you can build this emotional attachment to this character and still have death be a very scary thing that you don't want to happen. If you add perma-death to the game, it just becomes the routine of "Whatever I'll just make another character." This is why perma-death will not fit in a game like Destiny. With that said the OP was a very good read and I enjoyed hearing about his opinion.

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          • I agree with you, OP, but I definitely don't think Destiny is set up to be that sort of game. However if there would be a game built from the ground up to work as such....I'd dig it.

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          • Bearbeitet von xxxx1TB: 2/24/2013 12:24:37 PM
            There's likely a huge market for games where actions and reactions carry severe consequences that affect not only you and your character, but the entire world you and your character inhabit. Day Z is the first foray into gaming with an impact, and it could be possibly that Destiny influences another developer to someday expand upon and realize the vision you hold for this project... but that day is not today. [b]Keep dreaming! We will reach the stars![/b]

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            • Maybe make two servers. One with perma-death and one without.

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              • I love it. Considering there are classes that start with weapons and such it would be a very interesting way to play especially with PvP.

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              • OP, I physically hate you. Not just hate, but hatred hate, i despise your very being. Just by reading your posts you've made me physically sad, my mood in general, and for Destiny went from excited to being extremely gloomy. You suck, I hate you, and your brain sucks. God damn now I need another trailer to get back in the mood. You suck OP. Horrible idea, Horrible op, Horrible you, No. No. No. No. No. ... No. [spoiler]P.S. I hate you[/spoiler]

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                • I like the idea of perma death and I think it would make the game a whole lot more interesting, however I can never see Bungie putting it in. It would create too much of a barrier to casual players. What I could see possibly being put in is some sort of "Hardcore" difficulty. Wherein if you do die you would loose all your items and some experiences/levels. That would allows some players to have the awesome "experiencing the world.... experience and other players to just play around with their friends.

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                • Bearbeitet von SquattingTurtle: 2/23/2013 9:03:05 AM
                  10/10 would read again. (kept thinking of SAO)

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                  • Nonononononono! No! I was thinking you spawn back on Earth or in the Traveler. Not Perma-Death! Nope, nope, nope. Nope. Spawning at the Traveler with some delay if you were further away, but not perma death.

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                  • We saw in that [i]Pathways Out Of Darkness[/i] ViDoc that we will have more than 1 character (it seemed like a total of 4 or 6). That leads me to believe there will be some level of a penalty upon death in that once one of your characters die, you can't use that character for 24 hours, so you will have to use one of your other 5 characters. I would be okay with idea that I mentioned because it would encourage you (the player) to not have one uber Guardian and only be exposed to one class. If there are 6 total characters you can create, I would do 2 per each class assuming that the only 3 guardians that were shown are the only classes. However, perma-death, while I do whole-heartedly agree adds more "substance" to the character you create, I'll find myself all too often turning off my xbox and turning it back on right before I die (I play Fire Emblem: Awakening for the 3DS, it has a perma-death mechanic, and everytime one of my characters die, I always soft-reset my system). Another problem with permananent death as opposed to temporary unavaliability like a 24 hour suspension from using one of your characters, is that often, s**t happens, and you could be randomly killed for something that isn't your fault. One could argue that life is spontaneous and you don't have control over a lot of things, but we gamers are a culture of people who require control when we play games, if something random happens it's always the devs fault in our minds. I don't think Perma-Death will happen, but I think the 24 hour suspension carries just as much weight as perma-death and is not as severly penalizing as losing a character you will possibly have put 100+ hours into. P.S. There are people bashing you for your writing style and I was close to doing that too, but then I realized that it's a good thing that there are people who are writing well; sure it can oddly come off condescending/arrogant for whatever reason but I nevertheless commend you for writing fairly properly and having fun with it by adding in some poetic devices.

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                    1 Antworten
                    • I think this could be cool. I'd probably suggest making the stat ceiling kinda low, just so that if you die it's not as much of a loss. And yes, I know, not about stats, ect., but this could mske people who still want to be the best not grind as long and lose less when they die. I think the permadeath and the idea i just detailed might fit well with another thought I had, making individual players less important. It's not high level badasses busting through endless waves, but the sacrifices and hardships of many soldiers that would be making a difference. You still could have your badass crew or your elite lone wolves, but that would be only for the best of the best.

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                    • This is deep,man....

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                    • What if this game isn't about lvling? What if it truly is the mass decisions of the community determining the way everything happens. If this was the case you wouldn't be needing a linear story line. You could invite some friends on the main world. Go out and do missions (many games call side quests). In these missions you don't gain exp, stat bonuses, none of that normal rpg stuff. The choices your guardians and the guardians around you by doing these missions instead could change the world around you. What I'm saying above basically is, what if the true goal is trying to regain your races former glory. The choices you and the community makes can either set this back or bring it forward. Now I understand the game would be dull if you got nothing from missions. This is how multiplayer ties in. You want a better gun? Now three ways this would likely happen in this format. You are paid for missions and can buy guns and customization's (such as skins). For your heroic accomplishments on planets you could be given certain things. Lastly you must fight in a multiplayer type format. 1st 2nd and 3rd takes home the prizes. Now back onto how permadeath fits in. If you die in this type of game system. You only loose a couple of guns (which wouldn't be god guns), and that's it (I'd think they'd let you keep your skins :P). The real goal in the game would not be to lvl up, but to change the world around you with your community for the better or for the worst. Throw away tradition and move on to something greater and even more interactive then anything you have ever experienced.

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                    • I understand where you are coming from, but this isn't going to work. I would love to feel the intensity of loss, but that loss just seems too great. It frustrates me more when I can't reach the end of a good story, so I'd always be wondering. I'd like a big penalty but not some sort of Game Over.

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                    • You're dead on with the insecurity point. Inferiority complexes have been driving CoD sales for years... not saying some of them weren't fun games but it's still true. I completely agree with what your're saying, and that you're just trying to put it into perspective so that everyone can easily understand the idea. I hope that this is the path that Bungie chooses to take (not perma-death because that's what everyone else is going to think I mean), although I can already tell you the whole game won't be centered around a little "+10xp" icon appearing on your screen every few seconds. Bungie makes bold claims, and I have faith in them.

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                    • This mode would give bounty hunting a whole new meaning.Imagine you have somehow gone on and survived for an extremely long time, but you pissed someone off in the process. They hire a bounty hunter and the bounty hunter knocks you off. That would be an epic revenge story when you create a new character and start looking for the bounty hunter that killed your last character. You would train until your character was strong enough and then take him out,

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                      • I hope not, this was very frustrating in Diablo 2 & Diablo 3 with a hardcore player

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                      • Bearbeitet von ash: 2/24/2013 12:47:44 AM
                        0
                        There will be perma-death in Destiny. If you die, you can just back out and delete your character. If you're unwilling to do that, then that goes a long way to explaining why there shouldn't be compulsory perma-death in the game. I hope that there is nothing that gets in the way of exploration, risk-taking and experimentation. Harsh death penalties, repair bills etc. That's not to say I want the game to be easy. I think the biggest sense of satisfaction comes from playing above and beyond, overcoming a foe that really tested your skills. That's where the achievement lies. Death penalties are there mainly to add tension while you're fighting. They add more consequence to all of your decisions mid-battle, but they don't make the fight more challenging (directly), just more stressful. And like I said, if you want that stress, you can impose it on yourself by deleting your character upon death. I might actually try that some time for fun myself.

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                        • Bearbeitet von halo: 2/24/2013 1:26:17 AM
                          I don't think this is a good idea at all. When the game ships out just delete your character when you die. If you don't like that, then you would understand why it would be a dumb game mechanic. Just realized ash55 pretty much said the exact same thing I did. Like Ash said, this does not make the game more challenging BY ANY MEANS, it only makes the game more stressful. ANYBODY can beat the game without dying if they really wanted to. But who wants to? Who wants to play in that style, sneaking stressfully around corners, camping, letting your AI partners do all the work. That's not fun at all. I find a good challenge fun, but this isn't a challenge, it's just a stupid game mechanic.

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                        • Bearbeitet von Spinage: 2/24/2013 12:42:24 AM
                          DayZ and Hardcore mode in Torchlight 2 and Path of Exile. Id like that option. As long as its an option. Not saying its a bad idea. But it being Bungie, i don't think it would go well if they decide to do a permadeath like in DayZ. But give it an option I wouldn't mind.

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