meta is fine as it is, it was never better

[quote]1. First on the list is [b]hand cannons[/b]. They have been part of the forever meta since prison of elders wayyyy back. Partly because they do big damage, but also their play style kind of makes using any sustained fire weapons obsolete (auto, smg, trace, and some charge weapons) There’s not much that can be done to tone hc’s down without either making them useless or breaking the game. Dmg wise, doing a nerf won’t solve all the problems but a modest decrease would help huge, like 5-10%. The other thing is the old old nerf they got back in D1 that increased the bullet bloom, it worked back then maybe it’ll do the trick again? The only other things I could see that could help is getting rid of aim assist all together and a range nerf. Since most of the maps are really small it makes hc’s effective at any range on these maps. Maybe make the effective range like 25m? It is a pistol that shoots elephant slugs after all.. [/quote] I don't think damage is the issue. For Hand Cannons, there's 3 things that are making them unhealthy: range, flinch output, and aim assist. I'd say reduce the aim assist by about a third, reduce the range 3-5 meters, and MAYBE hit flinch output? [quote]2. [b]Shotguns & Snipers[/b]. Snipers aren’t really an issue other than the stickiness of their aim assist, maybe drop it down some. And for shotguns, they have too much effective range, specifically slugs (not to mention hip fire grip) the recent nerf to them helped to a degree but they still smack from 15m. For non exotics I feel like they should be like halo sg where it’s 1 tap from 5m but after that it becomes very weak at anything more than 10m. (For precision make it increasingly less accurate and have the dmg fall off start at 10m)[/quote] Pellets and non-Chaperone slugs are fine in terms of Max damage range. They don't need to be touched at all. For pellets, I'd say de-randomized the spread, and for slugs, cut the body damage in half, but bump the head damage by about 100. And for all shotguns, make the damage instantly fall to nothing. Oh, and Rapid Fire shotguns need a bone. [quote]3. [b]Fusions[/b]. Much like hc’s they currently sit in a difficult spot right now, the charge time is the main thing that can hold them back (increasing it will make them obsolete) effective range is decent but I thing the spread could help out, make the spread bloom a lot past 15m?[/quote] The problem with increasing spread is kind of two things; for one, it makes them feel like garbage, and for two, it takes already insanely top tier perks and puts them from good to "must use for viability." Fusions I'd say are fine where they're at, they're overall linear, slow, and limited enough to where they're easy to combat, it's just the community as a collective refuses to actually try to combat them. [quote]4. [b]Pulse[/b]. Aside from messenger, no time, darkest before, and their clones, the rest are really bad. My only idea would be to bump the dmg of the bad ones and increase the recoil on the meta ones? Effective range across the board should be 35m[/quote] I think a range buff is good, but I'd put 340s back to 5C1B for the 2-burst of that happened as to not make them super oppressive. I also think an RPM and crit ratio buff for 450s is a good idea. Maybe also a slight rework, as well as more representation for 4-bursts? [quote]5. [b]Auto[/b]. Once again there’s only 2 that are somewhat viable currently (gnawing hunger and scathloc) and with the buff and then immediate nerf to autos I can’t really see a good buff to make the whole weapon type good again.. mainly cause their fundamental use requires sustained fire meaning the hc’s will always have an easier time popping shots and hiding. Increasing dmg across the board would help but would also break the game, maybe give them increased flinch so it makes hc’s have a somewhat hard time instead of just point and click? Also for the slow rpm autos they need much higher stability. Effective range across the board should be 35m[/quote] I think a range buff is a good idea, but they shouldn't go beyond where HCs currently reside, so low 30s with high investment into range. I also think there should be some SLIGHT DPS buffs to make them more worthwhile to pick over just using Shayura's, as much as I enjoy that. [quote]6. [b]Scouts[/b]. DMT is super busted especially after the recent buff.. it should work like Ash from Overwatch where the hip fire is faster but doesn’t do as much dmg and ads is the focus. Also the perk should work like hawkmoon where kills stack for a dmg bonus for the last 3 rounds (35-40% just enough to 2 tap the second to last and 1 tap final round) also Contingency plan/servant do too much flinch and not enough recoil. Most other scouts aren’t used because they either take too long to kill or have really bad recoil. Also same story of hc’s have as good range on most maps and they overpower most scouts. (Increase effective range for scouts to 50m and give a ~10% dmg buff to the unused scout types)[/quote] DMT I'd nerf in 4 ways: 1. Reduce the bullet magnetism from the hip 2. Reduce the range from the hip (shouldn't go far beyond 25 meters without investment into range), and increasing zoom is probably the cleanest way to do this 3. Reduce base headshot damage to 75, and have the perk scale harder at 4 and 5 stacks to have similar damage output there 4. Replace Vorpal with One For All [quote]7. [b]Smgs[/b]. Much like autos there only two good ones out of the whole type… I think the main issue for this class is that it has an identity crisis and most of its effective range is in sg/fusion tickle territory. I’m not really sure how to even these out other than increase the stability for the bad ones and maybe add a deadly range of 0-5m where they do 15% more dmg (this will help with their viability against sg)[/quote] SMGs are kind of the poster-child for my argument that zoom needs overall less effect on your damage range. With the zoom consideration in mind, I'd give 600 RPM SMGs a solid 5 or so meters of range advantage over other SMGs to offset their lower DPS. [quote]8. [b]Sidearms[/b]. For the most part they are viable as a clean up weapon/I gotta reload mid fight. Rat king and travelers chosen seem to be the most talked about and yes their perks are kind of busted (mainly when used for a specific build) but for the most part I think they’re fine where their at.[/quote] Only thing I MIGHT do is slight bump the magnetism on these, but otherwise yeah, they're fine. [quote]9. [b]Bows[/b]. I love these things but they don’t really have a place amongst the rest. They aren’t snipers and they aren’t good at direct combat with most other primaries so they sit in a middle void. Only when they are paired with the usual fast swap explosive payload hc are they useful. My only suggestion would be that shorten the effective range (30-40m before dmg fall off) and make it so they 1 tap headshots and have an increased draw time? (Not to leviathan status but just long enough that you’d have to swap weapons to clean up a body shot) Also lean more into that there’s no sound when you fire, meaning you don’t show up on radar when loosing an arrow. *note the only 2 bows capable of 1 tap currently are both exotic and both require a perk activation or charged with light so..[/quote] Bows are more or less impossible to really balance, short of them moving to Special and being glorified Linear Fusions. But my only HUGE gripe with them that's actually controllable without banning duplicate weapon types is still combo builds. I'd just make them slower to swap off of to reduce combo build potency. [quote]10. This section will be about specific exotics that haven’t seen the light of day or are husks of their former selfs/D1 originals, and ones that are just annoying. [b]Riskrunner[/b], it’s Zalo but worse, just give it the original perks from zalo. [b]Graviton[/b], used to be decent but has been nerfed to uselessness, increase its dmg by 10% and give it heakseeker. [b]Business[/b], increase spool up time and reload speed.. it’s not hard to counter buts really annoying with ♾ ammo. Bring back [b]Patience and Time[/b]! And finally, plz nerf [b]Chappy[/b] and [b]Duality[/b]. See explanation above, Chappy has wayyy too much effective range (even for an exotic) and Duality is in a similar boat.[/quote] I think Risk is more a side grade to Zhalo, namely because the latter doesn't give damage resist, albeit has chaining as a passive effect. Graviton I'd reduce the burst delay and recoil on over changing the damage numbers. It's formidable, sure, but it shoots too slow to take advantage of much. Could also turn it into an AN-94 type hyper-burst. Duality I think is fine, and the only additional nerf to Chappy I'd give it is simply having it follow the range cap on slugs. It currently has about a meter over other Slugs for free.

You will see a lot of folks whine about adding bloom to hand cannons

Down voted the second you suggested bullet bloom. Easily the worst thing in any game imo Primary weapon balance currently [spoiler] High impact pluses (TTK 0.67, 2 burst) | 1.2TTK b - 39.1m (messenger)* Rapid pulse 0.8 TTK (7c 2b, 3 burst) | 1.4 TTK b - 33m (darkest before)* Multimach 0.67 TTK (9c 2b) | 1.13 TTK b - 25.7m Shayura’s 0.8 TTK (7c 2b) | 1.1 TTK b - 28m 120 HC 1.0 TTK (2c 1b) | 1.5 TTK b - 39.3m (igneous hammer)* 140 HC 0.87 TTK (3c) | 1.73 TTK b - 36.1 (Pali highest 3 crit of all 140s)* DMT 0.8 TTK (2c 1b) | 1.63 TTK b - it’s a scout ads range is always enough 600 autos 0.8 TTK (8c 1b) | 1.3 TTK b - 27.8m * 720 autos 0.77 TTK (9c 1b) | 1.17 TTK b - 24.3m * *I did not use fullbore w/ HC & the pulses/autos both had Chambered comp or arrowhead* • hc range includes rangefinder, which increases range by 3m Scout Fall off range’s - lowest range stats possible The only buff a scout would need is bigger maps Trustee (260rpm) 66.47m range Night watch 72.02m range Hung Jury (180rpm) 83.36m range Scholar (180rpm) 84.79m range[/spoiler] Also legendary slugs do no reach 15m range, they get around 11m You suggested bows should 1 ohk… um no, they have infinite ammo and it’s easy af to land crits with… Imo you don’t really know what you’re talking about in this post in depth enough to give reasonable solutions.

Don't really care as long as they keep the sandbox separated.. I don't want to have to use my op pillow case & feather grenades to do damage to enemies. Also the auto rifle from last season is viable... not just gnawing hunger & scathelock

You have 0 clue as to how weapons work. Holy -blam!-

Hand cannon damage should be increased not nerfed, they still do less damage than in destiny 1

I think HC’s biggest strength is their ease of use. I believe they have on average the highest aim assist out of all weapons, but they feel difficult to use. Really cool concept to make players feel good about themselves, not so good because they’ll never fall out of meta. I think you only need to tone down the AA over the board, bring it in line with the others. That should do the trick.

[quote]First on the list is [b]hand cannons[/b]. They have been part of the forever meta since prison of elders wayyyy back.[/quote] Year 1 of d2 smgs, sidearms and scouts pretty much dominated the meta. Seasons 10 and 11 which was almost half a year was almost dominated by 600 rpm auto rifles after their buff. Part of the meta forever? Lmao [quote]Snipers aren’t really an issue other than the stickiness of their aim assist, maybe drop it down some.[/quote] They literally have no counters on mid to large maps in the hands of any half decent player. Their oppressive nature leads into the fact that flinch is completely broken as it actively assists the player. You will flinch on and off the body meaning that by challenging a sniper you can lose the fight because you shot their reticle into your head. Their high body damage too just rewards the player for missing the head. [quote]Much like hc’s they currently sit in a difficult spot right now, the charge time is the main thing that can hold them back (increasing it will make them obsolete)[/quote] They are easily the easiest weapons in the game and longer charge times never make them hard or “hold them back”. We literally had a high impact fusion meta where erentil dominated mid to long range easily. Pre charging fusions completely bypasses this “problem” and you don’t understand that the current best fusion charges at 740 ms and the next at 400ms. This is literally better than most primary weapon ttks in the game so pre charging isn’t even a consideration already. Their ranges beat all shotguns currently and most primaries like smgs, sidearms and some autos. No offence to your skill level but if you believe fusions take any effort REMOTELY, you have achieved a level of delusion that defines the word. [quote][b]Auto[/b]. Once again there’s only 2 that are somewhat viable currently (gnawing hunger and scathloc)[/quote] All 600s are fine and if you did any research at all you’d realise that 720s are the best sub archetype with 450s not far behind which just require a little more effort to use. Suros regime is the strongest auto in the game and hasn’t changed for many seasons. It’s ttk arguably beats out most weapons in the game. You probably should do more research or let people who actually know what they’re talking about make calls about the meta because it’s clear to me this wall of text is a bunch of rambling after you played like 5 games of crucible 🤷‍♂️

I think shotguns are ok where they are but I do wish they were more like dueling weapons like in tf2 instead of 1hk or bust. Chappy does need a nerf tho, not aa just range. And yeah Hc just needs aa removed

So....can I have Explosive Payload on Sweet Business? Please? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤪🤪🤪 Great read and insight into the issues that I believe are slowly lessening. Hopefully one day PvP be without a single domineering weapon + archetype. Cheers and beers Guardian!

Handcannons needs a nerf but none of those all of those changes they once had amd they were horrible. Handcannons only need recoil and a reduce magazine like their real life counterparts damage is why you use a handcannon but lets be real no recoil makes no sense and 13-18 bullets is excessive and forgiving. Everything else is completely wrong and not accurate.

Meta is actually better than any previous meta we’ve had. So many weapons can dominate and do extremely well. Do people not remember when it was only shotgun handcannon, or only sniper handcannon? It’s also really funny that people that make posts like these start with handcannons lol. Bungie loves em, get over it.