This may seem a bit off-topic in some ways, but it's very relevant to the state of Destiny as of now, if a bit abstract.
I'm 29 years old, and have been gaming for as long as I can remember. I love video games, my dad and I bonded by playing games like Starcraft, World of Warcraft, Halo, etc. Having a gaming career this long, especially with online games such as Starcraft and World of Warcraft, I've lived through a lot of downfalls in recent years, and for years I've been trying to figure out what happened, but I think I've finally come to a single, simple point.
Video games are fun when passionate people make them.
This point leads me to further questions, and even has me delving into psychological sciences to find answers. For example: 'Why is it that at some point, game developers just start changing things that don't make sense to most of the community?' or, 'Why does it have to change at all?' or, 'Why is it that the last few WoW expansions, Destiny seasonal content, League of Legends seasons, Halo 4 and 5 feel so stale?' This is when I come back to my point, which leads to the answer. "They're not passionate about it."
Now, I can't blame them for that, and here's where psychology comes into it.
Using the Big 5 model of personalities For a quick rundown:
Extroversion: Whether you are energized by being around people or being alone
Conscientiousness: How much you like work.
Agreeableness: How easy it is for you to get along with people
Neuroticism: Susceptibility to negative emotion
Openness: Creativity and interest in ideas.
For this topic, we are mostly going to be talking about Conscientiousness and Openness.
Conscientiousness is split into two major subcategories: Orderliness and industriousness. What this means, is that if you are high in Orderliness, you like things to be clearly outlined, fit neatly into boxes, and things to be going according to plan and don't like change. High industriousness means that you can put your nose to the ground, work, and motivate yourself to work and get the task done.
Openness splits into Interest in Ideas, the more 'intellectual' side of Openness, it's the interest in sharing ideas, hearing ideas, coming up with ideas and thinking about novel experiences. Creativity is well, creativity, it's the ability for you to come up with said novel ideas.
There is [i]some[/i] inverse correlation between them, people high in conscientiousness [i]tend[/i] to be lower in openness, and vice versa. I'm sure everyone reading this can immediately come up with examples in their personal life of people like either of these. It's fairly rare that you'll have a combination of both, which is where you get people like Elon Musk, who goes out and creates something completely new and makes it work and keeps doing it.
This brings us back to game developers and a large portion of gamers, especially those that have been playing them as long as I have. It was a novel field, completely new, which means that the low-openness types aren't going to be drawn to it. The tendency shows that means that the people drawn to both creating and playing it are people that are high in openness. Creative types have a need to express their creativity, which overrides their low conscientiousness for as long as they are being creative, but once it ends, that drive is gone.
So we look at some of the great games of the past, and their stories.
Halo: Started off as an RTS, you can see in the behind the scenes the passion and excitement that went into it, the sheer joy when they realized how fun the warthog was, and ended up making an FPS that defined not just the genre, but also storytelling in games to this day. Halo 2 was rushed, and we saw a lot of the issues with it, but then Halo 3 the Bungie of Old really got to flex their creative muscles, and they even admitted that they had essentially burnt all of their creative energies out on Halo 3, but, they still had one more game to make for their contract with Microsoft, which was Reach.
Now, I know that many many people in the Halo community love Reach, but I have always found it to be a step backward. There were some cool things, I wish I could just import my Noble Six as a Titan in Destiny, for example, but there was something that always felt... Off, about the level design, enemy design, music, and storytelling, especially when you play Combat Evolved and Reach back to back like I have done recently due to the MCC being released on PC.
However, the Reach behind the scenes spoke about how the reason they went back in time was so they didn't interfere with 3's ending, but primarily because they wanted an excuse to 'do something different' which they did, Halo Reach does not feel like Halo to me, so, mission accomplished, though I do still feel that they didn't fully get around their 'creative fatigue' with the franchise in it.
World of Warcraft, same thing, my understanding reinvigorated by playing Classic WoW recently. The old Blizzard was full of passion about World of Warcraft, and nowadays, they're more passionate about the mobile games that they've self-admittedly been playing in their office instead of the games they make, unlike the Blizzard of Old, who made games that THEY wanted to play. No passion, they're just making the game for their paychecks.
You may see the pattern here, passion dies, so does the game. Which leads me back to the subject posted as the title of this thread.
I know that these companies are businesses, and businesses have needs, but I'm just trying to illustrate how that, and community attitudes, led to the current situation plaguing not just Destiny, but virtually every 'persistent multiplayer' games as I'll call them.
From the business side of things: “Releasing one very good game every few years is scary because it's an inconsistent income.”
and the Community side of things: “I'm out of things to do I want more content.”
The solution to both of these problems that we as gamers have been subjected to for over a decade now, and getting worse and worse by the day is an all in one package:
“Pump out regular content to keep players playing, make older content obsolete so we can keep making money off of them.”
Which yes, it's worked, game companies have grown to monstrous sizes because of it with insane amounts of money generation. But, what's happened to the games as a result? What can possibly happen? You're taking your finite resource in your Creative department's literal neuro-psychological ability to put passion in the game, and forcing them to develop consistent content for years at a time. It's a two fold problem, both the Corporatization of the gaming industry, and the obsessive need for new content.
The Corporatization problem, sadly, I'm afraid can only be solved by the market, by supporting smaller developers over, and not supporting well known, and sometimes beloved game companies.
The Community problem, yes we can kind of work on. Nobody ever complained that there wasn't enough content in Halo CE, 2, 3, or even Reach. Yes those are single player games and not 'persistent multiplayer games' like Destiny, though that argument doesn't actually answer the question that I now posit.
“What's wrong with putting a game down when you're done with it, and picking it back up when you're interest returns, or there is new content?”
Well, I know some of the answer:
Business: We can't make money off of you if you aren't playing.
Community: If I don't keep up I'll fall behind.
But the Community answer is caused by the Business answer...
What do you all think?
English
#destiny2
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Bearbeitet von TheArtist: 5/28/2020 3:40:27 PM[quote]What do you all think?[/quote] Coming from someone who is prone to over-intellectualizing, I never thought I'd ever say this to someone else: You are REALLY overthinking this. You are trying to turn what is nostalgia into a philosophical argument. Games changed because times changed. Because technology changed. Because gamer tastes and gamer habits changed. You can never go home again. You are 29 year old gamer talking about what were the formative games of your experience. So those are the yardsticks by which you measure the games you play to day, and the foundation of your expecation of them. I'm a 50 year old gamer, so my formative gaming experience were arcade machines...and the earliest home video games. As a result I am a gameplay SNOB...and couldn't care less if a game has a "story" or not. If it has one, I'll take it and enjoy it. But a good story will not get me to put up with a game with frustrating or aggravating game play (Watch_dogs, Witcher 3, Fallout) What has changed gaming is pretty straightforward. 1. Technology had allowed for the making of much larger, more complex games. Games that are more expensive, more prone to bugs and errors, take longer to trouble shoot, and represent a much greater financial risk to developers. 2. The Internet has changed gaming from what was a largely solitary or friends-and-family pursuit for gamers of my generation....into this big social experience for younger gamers. 3. Broadband internet and cheap mass storage has allowed for tremendous customization and service-after-the-sale of games. So the notion of a game as a FIXED product and a FIXED experience is about as obsolete a notion as Blockbuster Video in a Netflix world. But the notion of "the complete game" is a obsolete notion that many gamers of your generation STUBBORNLY cling to...when it is simply a relic of the days when games were sold on physical media, and there was no way to update or change a game once it was released. 4. Gamers play now much more than they did in my generation. There were no "hardcore gamers" in my generation. Games simply weren't big enough or complex enough to give you hours and hours of stuff to do everyday. 5. Social media...and e-sports. Have created a financial motivation to the way people play games. Instead of simply playing games for fun.....you have a lot of younger gamers who are playing with something to prove. They may have hoop dreams of becoming the next e-sport pro....or their favorite Twitch streamer...and getting paid to play games. They may be a YouTube content creator....and money alters their relationship to games. Pushing them to consume content as quickly as possible so they can compete with other content creators for relevance and access to viewers. Which translates into money. 6. Viral marketing. This social media presences creates a unique (and inexpensive) marketing opportunity for developers and publishers. So they have to engage with....and feed to certain extent whats going on in this monetized social media environment. 7. Publicly-owned publishers. Because of point 1, these publishers have tremendous power over what games get made, and how those games are made. But they are beholden to shareholders and Wall Street Analysts who don't care what kind of product they make. Only that it makes money and and increases the value of stock holding in these companies. 8. Free to play games and the highly social nature of games has created a trend in gamers that they dont' see these games as products of the labor of others, but instead a "public good" that the world owes them. That has created significant problems in balancing the issues in point 1. TLDR: What makes a good game is personal, and is a by-product of the individual gamers' temperment and life experience. Which is why this gamer culture notion that a "good game" will appeal to everyone both baffles and frustrates me. Because NO form of mass entertainment works that way. I love science fiction movies...but you won't get me out of bed to go see the sorts of dramatic films that traditionally get nominated for Academy Awards. It also changes across generations. So what one generation wants from the experience is very different than another. As a Gen X gamer, gaming for me is primarily an individual experience. Which grates against the mainly online, highly social experience that younger generations seem to want. The only constant is change....and you want to avoid trying to pathologize that change.
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Greed is one of the Seven Deadly sins.... Serves them right. Take heed Bungie Take heed
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Bearbeitet von Kouz_MC: 5/29/2020 5:36:43 AMYou’re actually discussing a serious issue of business in general. Conscientiousness VS Creativity In other words: Management VS Entrepreneurship Useless Compliance VS Market Creators It is a significant issue of the world in general. Those who want to keep their job VS those who want to create value. Risk Averted VS Risk Takers
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While games are dying, Funny story: Remember that Centurion Oryx took right after you landed on the Dreadnaught, then the Centurion and the taken Ogre tried to stop you from killing the King? Heh... didn't work. So the Centurion's bond brothers are pretty angry they lost their commander. They're leading a team to blow up the Dreadnaught's core. Core goes... most of the system goes with it. You're going to make sure that doesn't happen.
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To all your points, I think one general reply would be that the way to make money from games has changed over the decades. I am a much ancient being than you and have been playing games since early 80s. A simple challenge in 'quake' was enough to sell the game back in the days. Now, the generation and reach of wallet has changed so those things don't matter anymore and new things have to be appealing to generation x,y or a or whatever as well as veterans. Making games is slightly easier and getting less complicated due to better engines and hardware availability (look at UE launch from last month) but it's the concept of entertainment that has changed. All else apart, Bungie is a special case of failure under its current leadership. They would have screwed up in 80s as much as they have now so that is also a constant.
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25 AntwortenI'm sorry, you are but a young pup as far as gamers are concerned. There are much older gamers that started when this field started. So stating age means nothing to anyone. But to get to what you think is ruining games is frankly a uninformed consumer point of view. This is reality, by stabilizing your player base you stabilize your income. Video games are a business first. The are made to make money first, and appeal to YOU second. Hopefully a good studio does both. This problem arose once video games left the physical disc, the subscription became a must. Why? Because it is perceived by "gamers" as "easy" to just make more content and update the game. So really only thing that is ruining the games produced are the current generation of gamers, that don't think for themselves. The gamers that hang on every word from streamers, look for every leak, rip apart every database, search high and low OOB, get overly hyped and create wish lists for what THEY want, don't play more than one game and expect that one game to fulfill all of THEIR wishes and desires. Those are the problems in the industry right now. We are at a point that AAA titles are the hardest ever to make and balance and the hardest ever to appeal to the 4 quadrants of gamers. Meanwhile have the most talented and trained staff ever. Combined with trying to sift the utter cesspool which is Social Media and the opinions of the uninformed that have never done anything of value and never will. But oh do they have a "point to make" and "be heard". Because as always if the game they play isn't the way they would have made it, then "tHis gAMe iS DyinG", "i aM leAvinG hEre'S wHy", "my mOthEr nEveR loVed mE". Long story short, the grass is always greener on the other side. So by all means go check out that grass and see that it is the same as where you were. Find a game you like to play, then find another, play both, play three, play twelve. Heck play a different game everyday. But always realize that the games short comings are your own not the games. TLDR; LOL! This is the problem. 😂
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An interesting read and I'm sure there are points you make that are accurate. My main concern for Destiny is the fact that the engine is outdated and just cannot handle anything, the servers are a joke creating a false sense of skill in PvP modes, and the increasing amount of bugs that are happening are a more regular basis than before. This could be down to bad programming or maybe the lack of actual game testing. I know many players are sick and tired of the repetitive content , but as an older player, I enjoy getting on for a few hours every day with a few mates from across the pond, have a laugh and grind through the mundane stuff together.....it's a social thing. But come on....if you can't come up with new mind-blowing content, at least spend some of your vast income on getting the game to run smoothly. At present, it's like going on a family holiday to the same destination year in, year out, but the car your using gets slower and breaks down more often. So please Bungie, for starters, just buy a new car!
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agree that making a live service with barely any content is not great throwing a bunch of hamster wheels at the existing content isn't new content, it's just hamster wheels so hopefully people keep funding the live service now they are running out of hamster wheels so they are making all of our loot expire so they can hopefully make us do a few more hamster wheels before we completely burn out and hate the game just killing off a ton of primary joy from the game because it will get some extra money
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1 AntwortenI mostly agree. It’s an incredibly delicate balance that is very rarely achieved. It’s a human nature thing. We are zealous about the things we love. The things that make us happy. And we tend to have a quantity over quality issue. That’s where things seem to often end up. That’s where I’m at with Destiny. From what I’ve seen I’m in the minority when it comes to this, but I MUCH preferred the more traditional DLC model over the seasonal model. The DLC model had more engaging story content and I didn’t feel the need to keep up with anything for fear of missing out. I’ve gotten a few titles in D2 but I’m not going to stress myself out over getting all these seasonal titles. I’m the type that would rather get a title I like or that represents something about Destiny that I like and stick with that for a long period of time. Which is why I got Undying(the Vex are my favorite Destiny antagonist) and am sticking with it for now. To continue the quantity over quality thing, this is what the loot has been reduced to as well. This has become a collections game just as much as anything else. To what end though? Just to check something off a list? To check things that are knowingly less effective and desirable than others off a list? I don’t get any joy from that. If it’s not something I’d ever use anyway why do I care about checking it off a list? I can’t pull it back out anyway so now it seems even less useful or appealing to me. 🤷♂️ The main reason I’m here is the universe and its stories, and the feel of the combat. I’m fine with using my favorite weapons for long periods of time. I’m fine with using new gear. I just want a cool universe to run around in. That seems to be getting lower and lower in priority for them as they continue to perpetuate an awkward game model that in my opinion isn’t suited for this kind of involved universe. It makes me wonder why they even bother with lore. It seems many don’t read it in the first place, but Bungie seems to favor grinds and challenge and this impractical PvE/PvP blend over the actual universe and its stories. This model MUCH better suits a PvP only kind of game in my opinion. This is all odd to me considering the things that people seem to consistently praise the most positively about Destiny are the universe and its stories, the music, the art, the atmosphere, etc. The combat as well, but very little about the actual game model(looter) seems to be consistently praised. RNG is a divisive thing and there seems to be so very few exciting drop moments anymore. And if the plan is to now implement a predictable cycle of rotating gear, I don’t see that getting any better.
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4 Antworten343 is quite passionate about halo. They may not make the best narrative decisions, but it's clear they love the ip and work their asses off.
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1 AntwortenI've said this before several times over the past two years in multiple places and everyone called me a crazy dumbass. Finally more people are actually starting to see it when the issue when its already well too late and permanent damage to the industry has been done. Funny how that works. Totally agree, this nonsense needs to stop. More studios and what not need to follow how Blizzard produced their games in the past. Taking their time. If the game's not ready, its not ready. Plain and simple.
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3 AntwortenIn my opinion back in the day when Halo was being created the company had more passion, that wanting to create a game for the player base as well as themselves was there. At least that is what I felt playing all the Halo games up until Reach with this company. Unfortunately, I didn't get to play online as much until MCC came out when it came to the original Halo's. When I found out that the company was creating Destiny and 343 was taking over Halo, I kept up with what info I could because of the experience I had with Halo that I was excited, I mean who wouldn't be if you were a Halo fan right? I enjoyed the first game for a while but I could see as many could and feel that there was just something not right going on. Of course, we all found things out we really didn't want to know over the next couple of years. Skipping past year 3 that was good in my opinion, Destiny 2 came out and I could see things went south. This is part of why it went south. https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Bungie-Seattle-Reviews-EI_IE284423.0,6_IL.7,14_IM781.htm This is also why it went south. https://gamerant.com/destiny-2-bungie-ip-matter-different/
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Bungie is not in Wall Street
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1 AntwortenSummary. Mismanagement of everything leads to ultimate failure.
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I cracked my phone screen upvoting this. Guess I was a little overzealous and why can’t I upvote 300 times?
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I don't do this often, but felt compelled to log in and comment on such a well thought out and written post. I too myself have asked these questions and logically come to the same conclusion. Money >/= Passion for creation. There is a reason why the term "Starving Artist" exists. Life sends us down these paths inadvertently due to "money" being the thing that is tied to our general well being/quality of life. If you manage to make a decent living while simultaneously doing something you love... Congratulations! You've won this part of the game called life. It is a slippery slope of having someone over you being able to make your decisions on development while you do not have the "money" to fund it yourself to focus solely on your creativity and love for the game. It is a juggle for all major developers which is why now most true AAA titles take upwards of 7 years of development to bring you something that is a truly unique experience that you won't ever forget. Games can be pieces of art. Call it intuition or telepathy in a sense. We as gamers know when something has emotion and thought/love for the experience they are trying to share with us vs the money driven lifeless shell its turning into now. They know it. We know it. Can it be fixed? Maybe. Can it also ultimately burn out and fade away because they cannot learn from their mistakes? Ultimately it is on Bungie and US (the community) to work together to make it what it is. As long as we are viewed as a $ to them and not respecting our time <--- (which is the real commodity being exchanged here) In my humble opinion it will ultimately fail (if and when remain to be seen) This is a relationship like any other and it emotionally hurts people that are vested to the friends they've made.
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Bearbeitet von THA_3rd_GUY: 5/27/2020 10:07:11 PMCompletely agree. One-off games are significantly more enjoyable and memorable than games that are constantly trying to get you to come back.
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I agree with your mindset. It absolutely has to do with Bungie now wanting nothing but player's money. They can talk about being proud about working there and doing their best, but in the end? They're betrayed by their need to stay open for business. They need to turn this game into a profit mill, keeping players forced to stay involved to turn a profit. That's why they are taking things away, while bringing back old things because they do not want to make anything original for anything other than the newest content. It's why I haven't played in a long time. I still keep in contact with the community and I stay informed on what's happening in the game through the community, but I refuse to touch a game that has just become bereft of the passion that existed in the remains of the original Destiny plot before they cut it up and rebuilt it.
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2 AntwortenBearbeitet von Tru-Zrue: 5/27/2020 1:17:34 AMYou mean the live service/battle pass bullshit is killing the industry. And it's only going to get worse on the ps5 and whatever Xbox is calling their thing. Devs like bungie already feel like they don't have to release complete product and that they can just change whatever they have over the course of 3-5 years. Now devs will do that AND release games in segments but charge you full price upfront from pieces that aren't even ready.
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10 AntwortenThis is well written and it made me think about what Warframe has over Destiny for me. It's passion. I actually feel like DE has passion for the game. Bungie, it's freaking impossible, all I ever see is Luke spouting crap I hate, CMs doing seemingly nothing and everything they can simultaneously, and a Dev team who have the audacity to act like their friends with us, yet we know not a single one to any relative extent. You never see their faces, you never see them show how much really show they care. Meanwhile, I know two instances where Warframe lead devs actually get choked up or sad, probably close to crying at the thought of the game falling apart if everyone just left in an instant and overtly negative feedback being very hard to handle. I can tell they care, and I believe it. Those people get on Camera so freaking much to face their players and talk to them like humans. Not Scarab Lords behind a keyboard and a shield of arrogance from anyone who might think he's really not up to the task. Advertising streams led by a guy you likely would have forgotten had he not chosen oh so graciously to interview devs that you'll forget come tomorrow don't count either. I also love how there's a legitimate population that straight-up hate Destiny's content creators, I can be wrong, but I don't think the same is true on the other side. Bungie has been failing to show that they really care, so why should I? Destiny isn't the only thing in my life, and I'm truly sad for those that actually do live by it. Sad for anyone living off one game. You reduce yourself so much.
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Let me boil down what you are saying cause I totally agree: A Good Standalone AAA game is better than a Great FOMO drip-added content game. A Great Standalone AAA game beats all. Why? I'm going to GUESS that these two gaming experiences tickle two different parts of the brain. The Standalone game creates awe and wonder and RELAXING ESCAPE. The FOMO content game creates Pavlovian stress reaction--scratching an itch doesn't feel good. It simply dulls the feeling bad for a little while, until the itch comes back. And unfortunately, corporations who own the studios want to see revenue streams. They don't care about artistry. They don't care about morals. They care about money. So true standalone games are a dying breed. Standalone game : the passion for the story, art and experience is #1 FOMO drip content game: the revenue stream is #1 that about sums it up.
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Bearbeitet von Ken_Malibu: 5/27/2020 8:59:10 AMI love this post, very well articulated. Just watch out for people claiming that games were always made for money etc etc. The balance between technician and salesman sadly went all to the salesmen. Now they crunch on technicians and don't even care if a game is made with passion. Just throw some cheap sunk cost fallacy and FOMO at your beloved player base, tell them you listen to them and will always work to make the game better, stay as vague as possible, always hype up expectations, deliver as little as possible, create paywalls etc. It used to be: let's innovate and make the best possible [insert game genre here] game.
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People complained about content droughts... I’ve always said that I’d rather have 2-3 months a year of legit fun than 4 weeks. If the game is fun and we get a good spring update and a fantastic fall expansion, then I’ll be hooked for months out of the year. Currently, I have fun for MAYBE the first week of each season. The rest of my playtime is autopilot followed by, “what did I just waste my time on?” The free events are garbage, in my opinion. I’d love to get rid of them and then maybe Bung could settle down with the Eververse shit.
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2 AntwortenYup. Didn’t read every word but sounds about right. Creative burn out and horrible time tables. I’m gaming less myself because it’s too stale. Even switching up games only helps so much.
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Bearbeitet von name: 5/27/2020 8:41:21 AMyes, i preferred getting complete games, then wait some time (while playing other games) and get a complete sequel later , this worked fine and kept me busy i dislike the idea there is timegated , soon to come etc. content, i may not even be around as long to experience what i paid for as a matter of that, complete games of the past were much better than fragmented games of today now i buy much less games than i did before, because im tired of all those schemes , also the "modern" games seem to ask too much of my free time and money without really providing anything in return (pointless inflated grind is no incentive for me to play, paywalling game content as DLC/microtrasnactions either)
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3 AntwortenI can sum it up in one point. The video game industry has largely been ruined by *games that are underdeveloped because they're not really games anymore, they're simply the minimal required shell to sell us microtransactions. Now, by "underdeveloped" I don't mean that the people working on them don't care about what they're doing, and that they shouldn't be proud of their work, the shells of these "games" are usually pretty good, but the content inside of them is shallow, repetitive, and boring. In Destiny 2, take The Lie for example. The fact that there was a quest with the only real step being "get 1000 kills with a shotgun", shows that Bungie couldn't be bothered with an interesting quest, but rather chose to just lazily throw a tedious and boring objective at us. When you have to resort to that, or if you have to sell a "shortcut" (as in Assassins Creed Odyssey, with the $5 permanent XP booster), it just shows that your base game wasn't designed correctly in the first place.