[spoiler][quote]Hunters are statistically the "Crutch Class" on Console: https://guardian.gg/2/class-stats?platform=console&mode=5&start=2020-01-26&end=2020-02-02 Win Rate: Top 2 = Arcstrider, Nightstalker KDA: Top 2 = Arcstrider, Nightstalker Popularity: Top 2 = Gunslinger, Nightstalker People need to stop pretending Hunters take more skill to use than Titans and Warlocks 😂[/quote][/spoiler] Tl;Dr: just looking at the averages I don’t see how hunter is the “Crutch Class “. OK, it's late and I'm not implying that I'm the brightest light-bulb in the light-house so please also crunch the numbers and let me know if and where I'm wrong. From 2k20-01-26 to 2k20-02-02 classes chosen from top 4 in win rate on console. [b][u]Average[/u] win rates:[/b] Arcstrider: [u]55.8[/u]38 Stormcaller: [u]53.2[/u]497 Nightstalker: [u]52.9[/u]987 Striker: [u]52.1[/u]679 [u]Arcstrider vs Stormcaller[/u] win rate difference: [u]rounded to [b]5% difference[/b][/u] [u]Arcstrider vs Striker[/u] win rate difference: [u]rounded to [b]7% difference[/b] [/u] [b][u]Average[/u] KDA:[/b] Arcstrider: [u]1.38[/u]52 Nightstalker: [u]1.33[/u]1 Stormcaller: [u]1.32[/u]59 Striker: [u]1.26[/u]78 [u]Arcstrider vs Stormcaller[/u] [b]KDA[/b] difference: [u]rounded to [b]4% difference[/b][/u] [u]Arcstrider vs Striker[/u] [b]KDA[/b] difference: [u]rounded to [b]9% difference[/b][/u] [u]Top three[/u] “[b]Miss Popularity[/b]” are: [u]Top Gun[/u] ([b]Gunslinger[/b]), [u]Nr.1[/u] *star trek refference* ([b]Nightstalker[/b]) & [u]3rd Time’s the Charm[/u]([b]Voidwalker[/b]). These three leave the rest [b][u]in the dust[/u][/b] in that order. I got tired ([b]bored[/b]) of doing the time frame averages but: [u]Voidwalker[/u]: [b]51.3613[/b] win rate average, [b]1.2635[/b] KDA average. [u]Gunslinger[/u]: [b]49.9028[/b] win rate average, [b]1.2447[/b] KDA average. [u]Top Gun[/u]([b]Gunslinger[/b]) vs [u]3rd Time’s the Charm[/u]([b]Voidwalker[/b]) win rate diff: [u]rounded to [b]3% difference[/b][/u] [u]Top Gun[/u]([b]Gunslinger[/b]) vs [u]3rd Time’s the Charm[/u]([b]Voidwalker[/b]) KDA diff: [u]rounded to [b]2% with indulgence[/b] [/u] Considering Arcstrider is [b]Nr.6[/b] in popularity vs Voidwalker at [b]Nr.3[/b] (but [b]Nr.1[/b] in win rate [b]and KDA[/b] overall): [u]Arcstrider [/u]vs [u]3rd Time’s the Charm[/u]([b]Voidwalker[/b]) win rate average; rounded to [b]8%[/b] diff [u]Arcstrider[/u] vs [u]3rd Time’s the Charm[/u] ([b]Voidwalker[/b]) KDA average: rounded to [b]9%[/b] diff More so if I’m correct, it looks to me based on popularity to efficiency hunters have a low entry level and high skill ceiling. So in essence … yes, I’d say they take more skill to use effectively, up there with stormcaller on console. [u][/u] Please enlighten me with your thoughts.

First of all, the settings that appear on my link were not the ones I was looking at when making the claim that "Hunters are the Crutch Class on Console " (for some reason it defaulted back to the 1-week time gap you analyzed). Your averages seem correct, but they're not really relevant since they only correspond to a 1-week period... and making such a claim would require a much broader time gap in order for the data to be as represenatitive as possible. I edited the link on my original post to show what I'm talking about. > The selected (corrected) time gap was: 01/10/2018 - today > The selected (corrected) pvp mode was: Survival That means a time gap of over 1 year, and the reason I chose October 2018 as the starting date is because Forsaken (and all the special ammo changes) was released at that time. The reason I chose "Survival" as the pvp mode is because Comp is a mode in which winning matters the most, so most of the players running it will use the "cheesiest" loadouts that enable them to secure a win with the highest probability. Also, Survival is the only Comp mode that remained being a Comp mode after the pvp menu changes (up to today). Here's the updated stats: https://guardian.gg/2/class-stats?platform=console&mode=37&start=2018-10-01&end=2020-02-04 (toggle between Win Rate and KDA since the link doesn't do it for you). Those stats correspond to a 1-year period starting off at the time Special Weapons became relevant and all the way until now... in a mode where winning matters the most compared to other pvp modes like quickplay. Calculating an average for each subclass (and each criterion) would be an incredibly tedious assignment; however, that's not necessary. Just by looking at the relative density (concentration) of the points at the top of the graphs, it's clear that Hunters are the "Crutch Class"... The Red Points (Arcstrider) and Orange Points (Nightstalker) are consistently at the top of each graph, and there was even a brief period (few months after Forsaken) in which all 3 Hunter Subclasses were at the top (Light Blue Points correspond to Gunslingers). That was most likely due to the Nova Warp nerf that resulted in the sharp decline to Voidwalkers (Purple Points). Regardless of Stormcaller (Green Points) generally being neck to neck with Nightstalkers, the fact is that at least 2 Hunter Subclasses have remained in the Top 3 best Classes (in terms of KDA and Win Rate), while only 1 Warlock Sublcass has done so in the same time period (either Voidwalker - pre warp nerf or Stormcaller - post warp nerf).... and the same can be said for Titans. Conclusion: Hunters are the Crutch Class because 2/3 Hunter Subclasses have remained in the Top 3 (Win Rate and KDA) for over 1 year now after Special Weapons became relevant.

[spoiler][quote]First of all, the settings that appear on my link were not the ones I was looking at when making the claim that "Hunters are the Crutch Class on Console " (for some reason it defaulted back to the 1-week time gap you analyzed). Your averages seem correct, but they're not really relevant since they only correspond to a 1-week period... and making such a claim would require a much broader time gap in order for the data to be as represenatitive as possible. I edited the link on my original post to show what I'm talking about. > The selected (corrected) time gap was: 01/10/2018 - today > The selected (corrected) pvp mode was: Survival That means a time gap of over 1 year, and the reason I chose October 2018 as the starting date is because Forsaken (and all the special ammo changes) was released at that time. The reason I chose "Survival" as the pvp mode is because Comp is a mode in which winning matters the most, so most of the players running it will use the "cheesiest" loadouts that enable them to secure a win with the highest probability. Also, Survival is the only Comp mode that remained being a Comp mode after the pvp menu changes (up to today). Here's the updated stats: https://guardian.gg/2/class-stats?platform=console&mode=37&start=2018-10-01&end=2020-02-04 (toggle between Win Rate and KDA since the link doesn't do it for you). Those stats correspond to a 1-year period starting off at the time Special Weapons became relevant and all the way until now... in a mode where winning matters the most compared to other pvp modes like quickplay. Calculating an average for each subclass (and each criterion) would be an incredibly tedious assignment; however, that's not necessary. Just by looking at the relative density (concentration) of the points at the top of the graphs, it's clear that Hunters are the "Crutch Class"... The Red Points (Arcstrider) and Orange Points (Nightstalker) are consistently at the top of each graph, and there was even a brief period (few months after Forsaken) in which all 3 Hunter Subclasses were at the top (Light Blue Points correspond to Gunslingers). That was most likely due to the Nova Warp nerf that resulted in the sharp decline to Voidwalkers (Purple Points). Regardless of Stormcaller (Green Points) generally being neck to neck with Nightstalkers, the fact is that at least 2 Hunter Subclasses have remained in the Top 3 best Classes (in terms of KDA and Win Rate), while only 1 Warlock Sublcass has done so in the same time period (either Voidwalker - pre warp nerf or Stormcaller - post warp nerf).... and the same can be said for Titans. Conclusion: Hunters are the Crutch Class because 2/3 Hunter Subclasses have remained in the Top 3 (Win Rate and KDA) for over 1 year now after Special Weapons became relevant.[/quote][/spoiler] I respectfully have to disagree with both your conclusions and how you got there. Your reasoning behind survival is correct and the best choice tho. Yeah, we're not getting paid for this so I'm not doing the averages for that long of a time period, got bored doing it for one week. However, you state that my one week numbers are irrelevant because [i]"making such a claim would require a much broader time gap in order for the data to be as represenatitive as possible"[/i]. Later you say that it is not necessary to calculate the tedious averages (yeah, tedious would be an understatement) but[i]"Just by looking at the relative density (concentration) of the points at the top of the graphs, it's clear that Hunters are the "Crutch Class"..."[/i]. Just because you beat me by an inch in a race, doesn't mean I should share 1st place on the podium next to you. Also, just because I've beaten the next person by half an inch, doesn't mean he'll share second place with me. By following a horizontal line slowly in the graph left to right you'll notice the difference between the top five in win rate follows more or less my weekly numbers. Yes, hunters take most of the top 3 but not by any unreasonable or unrealistic margin. The differences are not night and day. A 50 to 55 win rate difference might look steep but in reality it is a 10% rounded difference. I don't see how the difference between Nr. 1 and Nr. 5 being only 10% as problematic. Considering the undeniable fact hunters are the most popular among all platforms, top 5 spots are more or less equal in both win rate and kda. My two cents, no crutches.

[quote]However, you state that my one week numbers are irrelevant because "making such a claim would require a much broader time gap in order for the data to be as represenatitive as possible".[/quote] They kinda are. The shorter the time-gap, the more narrow the analysis is, and the less accurate a statistical model is for describing a certain phenomenon. Your weekly analysis contains a total of 7 points (per subclass)... compared to about 500 Points (per subclass) on my analysis. It's clear which is more representative of what's going on in pvp. If the number of data points were irrelevant, anyone could grab two arbitrary days (points) within that time-gap, draw a line through them, and claim that their linear model is perfect because it's R squared value is 1... when the truth is that as more and more data points are considered, that linear model becomes useless. [quote]Later you say that it is not necessary to calculate the tedious averages (yeah, tedious would be an understatement) but"Just by looking at the relative density (concentration) of the points at the top of the graphs, it's clear that Hunters are the "Crutch Class"...".[/quote] I believe anyone with eyes can see a clear "blob" of Red and Orange on the top of each graph. You could run the averages if you wanted, but it's not necessary because it is visually perceivable that Hunters are at the top. [quote]Just because you beat me by an inch in a race, doesn't mean I should share 1st place on the podium next to you. Also, just because I've beaten the next person by half an inch, doesn't mean he'll share second place with me.[/quote] Not sure what you mean by that since I never claimed two subclasses with the similar stats should share the same "rank". [quote]By following a horizontal line slowly in the graph left to right you'll notice the difference between the top five in win rate follows more or less my weekly numbers.[/quote] Which isn't surprising considering an approximation to a horizontal line translates to "little to no change in Win Rate and KDA over time", which shows Hunters have constantly remained on top over 1+ year of time. However, the same can't be said about Voidwalkers, Stormcallers, Daybreak, or Titans in general. Your weekly analysis has Stormcallers on the top 3, while this wasn't the case (when Forsaken came out) in the yearly analysis.... which means Hunters have remained on the top for the longest time out of all Classes. [quote]Yes, hunters take most of the top 3 but not by any unreasonable or unrealistic margin. The differences are not night and day. A 50 to 55 win rate difference might look steep but in reality it is a 10% difference. I don't see how the difference between Nr. 1 and Nr. 5 being only 10% as problematic.[/quote] I'm not here to calculate the margin that exists between all subclasses, I'm here to demonstrate that if people want to keep following and using this "Crutch" classification for weapons/abilities/characters, Hunters fit in it more than Titans and Warlocks, even if just by a little. Why? because you'll find people here who'll claim Hunters take more skill... when that's ridiculous. [quote]Considering the undeniable fact hunters are the most popular among all platforms, top 5 spots are more or less equal in both win rate and kda.[/quote] Win Rate and KDA don't depend on popularity (%usage).

You might be the most logical and smartest person I've ever seen on these forums. Hats off to you my friend

Nobody said clutch. We said easier. Hunters have an escape ability. I’m a Warlock main obviously but when I play my Hunter it’s not that I get more kills it’s I get killed less. Warlocks and Titans can’t react as fast as a hunter so in 6v6 hunters have distinct advantage. That advantage goes away....for the most part.... in 3v3 or rumble. Heck I get to 5500 in comp as a Warlock using a bow but there is no way I can do that in 6v6. Here is the bottom line and take no offense to this: playing a Warlock or a Titan in PVP has a higher starring skill level than a hunter and it finishes higher than a hunter. Playing a hunter you and run jump and gun with a good way to get out of trouble very easy. Hunters are the easy button. You can’t do that with a Warlock. If a Warlock was a gun it would be a fusion. Has to time your shots, have to know the map, pre- fire and And constantly thinking about your next move. A hunter is recluse. Just run, hold the trigger down and spray away because you can always get yourself out of trouble no thought required.

Some one give this guy an award for actually putting up stats instead of having a melt down and posting a hurt feelings report. GG guardian well done!

Thanks. Math wasn't and isn't my strong point, so take what I've posted with a grain of salt. Guess I'll have to wait and see what jetrotor has to say.

Hunters aren’t crutch, they literally the only class that plays like it should because of the dodge and jump. Titans for a very short amount of time should get a personal shield. Warlocks either a small health regeneration or a weaker shield but with a small damage “knock back” at the one attacking them. ——————- When I play on my other two classes literally the only thing that is different is the jump. Other than that the supers feel identical.

A Class that has the most %wins, highest KD, and highest %usage is definitely the "Crutch Class". That's 3 different variables that all lead to the same conclusion lol.

Then play it.... or if you have so much “skill” with all those warlocks kill all them hunters!!!!!

Whether I play or not with a Hunter, the stats I posted won't change. I'm Unbroken with 2400 ELO on Comp, and have little to no problems facing Hunters 24/7: https://guardian.gg/2/profile/4611686018431521080/AdimensionaI The fact people want to push the idea that "Hunters take more skill" than other classes is a seperate issue, and those stats demonstrate it's a fallacy.

You just got destroyed with facts bro, have some dignity For your self and leave the forums before u embrass your self more.

Lmfaoooo another hunter claiming all are equal yet I've checked your stats: 52000 kills with hunter class 2000 kills with warlock 800 kills with titan....... So, 98% hunter kills in crucible and you are stating all are equal 😂😂😂😂😭😂😂😂